Email from Costco tonight..

Coded-Dude · Oct 21, 2010

Open Letter to Coroner's Inquest Review Committee

From the victim's father's blog:

"Our cops are out of control."

That's the statement I've heard most frequently from local citizens, since my son, Erik Scott, was shot and killed by three Las Vegas Metro Police Department officers on July 10th. Couple that with universal skepticism, expressions of disbelief and outrage voiced by Americans across the nation, who watched the recent coroner's inquest hearing into Erik's death, and any honest person will draw but one conclusion:
Citizens no longer trust Clark County's law enforcement public servants.

Although there are many contributing factors, that loss of trust is first and foremost a direct result of the coroner's inquest process as it exists today. Thousands of citizens across the United States, Europe and Australia, who watched Erik's inquest hearing on television and streamed video via the Internet, were shocked and angered by the unfairness and lopsided nature of that hearing. They couldn't believe the Clark County commissioners, sheriff, district attorney and coroner would embrace and support such a brazen affront to due process and justice.

Nevada citizens now understand that the current inquest process is nothing more than a transparent license to kill, because it never, ever holds Metro officers accountable for their actions. Where's the incentive for an officer to not shoot, when he knows there's absolutely no possibility that an inquest jury can find him at fault, given the loaded instructions juries are given?

This loud-and-clear loss of trust by taxpaying citizens should strike fear in the hearts of every elected county official and Metro police officer. Why? Because, historically, when government officials betray the trust of their citizen employers, chaos soon follows. As proof, look no farther than the bloodshed and chaos throughout Mexico today. Mexico's nightmare began when police and elected officials declared themselves above the law, unaccountable to the people who pay their salaries.

Today, that's the message Las Vegas residents are hearing from their sheriff, their district attorney and their public administrator: "We are above the law!" That declaration was burned indelibly into Las Vegans' memories by Metro police Sergeant Raymond Reyes on February 4, 2008, when he allegedly told attorney David Lee Phillips, "I'm Metro. We can do whatever we please." (Las Vegas Review Journal, July 30, 2010).

As it stands, the Clark County coroner's inquest reinforces the perception that Metro officers "can do whatever we please." For 34 years, this abomination of due process has been nothing more than a quasi-legal exercise to exonerate cops, a tool for creating an impression that police officers' actions are always justified or excusable. And Erik Scott's inquest hearing exposed that truth to thousands of viewers.

As you review the existing inquest procedures and rewrite county Code 2.12 to ensure future hearings are fair to all parties involved, please remember that thousands of citizens across the United States—not only those there in Las Vegas—are watching and asking: "If the Clark County coroner's inquest hearing remains a one-sided platform for airing distortions, falsehoods and fabrications, why should we trust any of you?"
Regards,
William B. Scott
Father of Erik B. Scott

It saddens me to see such arrogance from people who have elected to "protect" us.

New Daddy · Oct 21, 2010

xxx.jakk.xxx said:
If I were to go in with my Mother or Grandfather, both members, then I'd be a guest. As a guest, I had no such agreement and was not informed by the company that I could not carry. Therefore, they have not notified me and I would be unknowingly breaking a rule because it isn't posted. =\

*Edit*
Benefits and Services
http://www.costco.com/Images/Content/Misc/PDF/08EX0629_ServBro.pdf

Complete booklet has no mention of a weapons, firearm or even violence policy. It does however say
"Our Privacy Statement outlines our policies and practices in detail."

I found their privacy statement.
http://www.costco.com/Service/FeaturePageLeftNav.aspx?ProductNo=10166084
AGAIN, it has no mention of Weapons, Firearms or a violence policy.

Their Terms and Conditions
http://shop.costco.com/Legal/Terms-and-Conditions
... No mention...

Costco has absolutely no written policy that I can find. I cannot find the user agreement but so far their policies do not agree with their Firearm Policy that they state.

The "terms and conditions" are for their website:

"COSTCO WHOLESALE CORPORATION, TOGETHER WITH ITS SUBSIDIARIES AND AFFILIATES ("Costco") PROVIDES YOU ACCESS AND USE OF THIS SITE SUBJECT TO YOUR COMPLIANCE WITH THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF USE" <caps in original>

They couldn't extend their weapons policy to your computer. You need to get a copy of the membership agreement that you sign at the time of joining.

Costco's weapons policy isn't about your right to carry a firearm - it's about their right to limit their liability. If you've signed the agreement and you carry a firearm into the store and something - anything happens - they can fall back on the policy to limit their liability. Sure, everybody is great and safe protector - but they don't know which on you are. What they know is that it only takes one idiot.

Conceal your weapon thoroughly if you choose to shop at Costco.

xxx.jakk.xxx · Oct 21, 2010

Kryteon said:
Let me see if I understand this correctly.

Costco calls 911, the cops shoot a man. Costco is wrong.
A citizen calls 911 MWAG, the cops ask the man for ID. The cops are wrong.

So, its okay to pump a guy full of bullets, but not to ask for ID, as long as none of the calls came from Costco?

Just checking.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Wow...

Ok, what I said was that Employee contacts manager. Probably something like
"There's a guy down here with a gun. I'm asking him to leave."

Manager gets that and talks to the security guard. The message has most likely changed and is more urgent now.

Security guard relays the message to the 911 operator while probably changing the message slightly and making it seem even more urgent.

15 police cruisers, 1 police helicopter, Response Team and Ambulance show up outside.

COSTCO Evacuates the building causing panic where none is needed and makes the MWAG seem to be fleeing.

I don't see how you could say that COSTCO did anything right when they made a call that caused 15 police cruisers, a police helicopter and and Incident Response Team to show up while simultaneously evacuating a building when there was no real threat.

I could be wrong. That may be the perfect thing to do when a man legally has a gun and is only breaking a policy unknown to himself.

Coded-Dude · Oct 21, 2010

Welcome Brochure [pdf]

General Information At costco.com, you’ll find
information on Costco’s memberships, locations, hours,
product notices and more. If you don’t find the information
you need, email our Contact Center at
customerservice@costco.com or call 1-800-955-2292.

9. General Policies
• Members are welcome to bring their children and up to two
guests into the warehouse, however, only Costco members may
purchase items.
• Parents are responsible for their children and should not leave
them unattended.
• Members are responsible for their guests and other family members.
• Costco reserves the right to inspect any container, backpack,
briefcase, etc., upon entering or leaving the warehouse.
• To ensure that all members are correctly charged for the
merchandise purchased, all receipts and merchandise will be
inspected as you leave the warehouse.
• Shirts and shoes are required.
• Liquor and Tobacco sales cannot be made to minors.

© 2004 Costco Wholesale Corporation. All rights reserved.
PRICE CLUB is the registered trademark of Costco
Wholesale Corporation.

The only thing I have been able to find stating they don't allow firearms is an official reply to an email.

btw - the officer that shot the man said as soon as the victim turned around his eyes were bloodshot and he looked out of it. he also claims the victim was raising his gun to point it at officers. i wish they would release the video.

xxx.jakk.xxx · Oct 21, 2010

Coded-Dude said:
Welcome Brochure [pdf]

The only thing I have been able to find stating they don't allow firearms is an official reply to an email.

btw - the officer that shot the man said as soon as the victim turned around his eyes were bloodshot and he looked out of it. he also claims the victim was raising his gun to point it at officers. i wish they would release the video.

According the the eyewitnesses, though it was his lady friend so no one can be sure, he had his hands raised and they told him to drop the gun. He started to lower his hand with his palm out and said he was disarming himself and that before his hand got below shoulder level, they shot him. After he dropped, they continued to shoot him.

Yeah, the police were in the wrong if that's how it went down. I hope the family gets anything that they want and that the 3 police go down, though I know that they can't get their son/ husband back.

Coded-Dude · Oct 21, 2010

[video=youtube;BVmjAZxzpMc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVmjAZxzpMc[/video]

xxx.jakk.xxx · Oct 21, 2010

So if what the Security and Police reports say is true then the police and Costco acted correctly. I just wish that they released the original 991 call and had some video footage to show it. Also, wasn't there a Costco worth of people that witnessed it since they all evacuated to the outside where this happened?

devildoc5 · Oct 21, 2010

the thing I find amazing about all of this is that the police report states that the weapon was still in the holster when the coroner arrived....

Scott was killed July 10 after officers said he raised a gun — which turned out to be in its holster — and pointed it at an officer

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/sep/30/despite-warning-several-gather-protest-erik-scott-/

Not too sure, but it appears to me like he got a NON DEFECTIVE handgun, you know the ones that jump in and out of holsters on their own and shoot random kids and cops?

Too bad mine is broken....

Coded-Dude · Oct 21, 2010

You would think. Being in I.T. i find it rather convenient that the "video system" stopped working a few days before. What kind of security is Costco really providing their patrons; "we don't allow guns, nor do we keep proper maintenance of our security systems, we just call 911."

Also the data on the drive is most certainly obtainable. Unless there was physical damage to the platter(fire, dropping it, etc) then the platter can be places in a good drive and the data can be recovered. Of course the details are being kept secret at the discretion of the PD.

cbpeck · Oct 21, 2010

I don't intend to speak poorly of the victim, but I'd be VERY hesitant to ever reach for my weapon if I have several officers' guns drawn on me, even if the intent was to disarm. I can't say what I'd do, but it sounds like he had multiple conflicting instructions hurled his way. It may have been better to comply with another (i.e. lay down on the ground).

Coded-Dude · Oct 21, 2010

I totally agree with that sentiment. Reaching for your gun when guns are pointed at you is a bad idea.....unless you want to get into a shoot out.

sirpuma · Oct 21, 2010

New Daddy said:
IIRC, when you join Costco you sign a membership agreement and agree to abide by their rules - including their weapons policy. Since you've been notified in writing, I'm not sure why they would require a sign to notify you a second time.

Actually, their "member policies" (which are available online) do not mention the prohibition of firearms. It is a quiet corporate policy that isn't directly advertised.

After two separate incidences with COSTCO and my choice of OC we dropped our membership this year and just recently joined Sam's Club. We would much rather spend the extra gas money to drive around the sound to the Supermall and be able to OC than drive to our local COSTCO and be harassed or be disarmed. COSTCO no longer gets our money.

jbone · Oct 21, 2010

I bet page 14 under Membership about covers it for them, nice little blanket statement they have.

Crazy world, Juam Williams gets fired for expressing his fear, and anti gun folks get the privilege of having and expressing their fear without reprecussions.

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=3164

Scroll down page and see: link to read our Member Benefits and Costco Services*.

Bill Starks · Oct 21, 2010

The 911 audio:
http://www.lvrj.com/multimedia/Cost...at-Erik-Scott-coroners-inquest-103659964.html

xxx.jakk.xxx · Oct 21, 2010

From the sound of the 911 call from the Loss Prevention "Security" guy, Costco was not in the wrong. I must take back my prior statements against their treatment of the situation. They actually stayed very calm and gave a lot of information. Also, if it is true that he was acting so erratically and kept putting his hand on his gun, the police were right to believe that he may draw on them. The only problem is that they probably could have handled it without putting 6-7 bullets in him.

Coded-Dude · Oct 21, 2010

the only way to backup any claims would be to analyze the video, but that is "not" an option.

Tawnos · Oct 21, 2010

xxx.jakk.xxx said:
From the sound of the 911 call from the Loss Prevention "Security" guy, Costco was not in the wrong. I must take back my prior statements against their treatment of the situation. They actually stayed very calm and gave a lot of information. Also, if it is true that he was acting so erratically and kept putting his hand on his gun, the police were right to believe that he may draw on them. The only problem is that they probably could have handled it without putting 6-7 bullets in him.

Bull. The guy was asked to leave, argued a bit because he didn't know it was policy and got pissed that someone would deny him the right to keep and bear arms. He waits for his wife/girlfriend whatever to come over, explains to her that they're kicking him out and he's pissed because he has a right to carry a firearm. The two of them leave their groceries and start heading out, unaware that the cops have been called and the whole time they were talking it was being described by somebody standing a distance away from them. Walking towards the front door, due to the briskness, he adjusts the holster (likely due to his brisk walk, but he does not draw a firearm). The second he gets outside, he gets yelled at and immediately shot.

There is NO time to react based on the time between the officers yelling and shooting. The officers lie about him having the gun in hand, because the gun is found in the holster still when he is dead. The pissant who works at costco is wrong about him having a gun in his hand for the same reason, he simply presumed it because the guy was shot after being told "put it down".

xxx.jakk.xxx · Oct 21, 2010

Tawnos said:
Bull. The guy was asked to leave, argued a bit because he didn't know it was policy and got pissed that someone would deny him the right to keep and bear arms. He waits for his wife/girlfriend whatever to come over, explains to her that they're kicking him out and he's pissed because he has a right to carry a firearm. The two of them leave their groceries and start heading out, unaware that the cops have been called and the whole time they were talking it was being described by somebody standing a distance away from them. Walking towards the front door, due to the briskness, he adjusts the holster (likely due to his brisk walk, but he does not draw a firearm). The second he gets outside, he gets yelled at and immediately shot.

There is NO time to react based on the time between the officers yelling and shooting. The officers lie about him having the gun in hand, because the gun is found in the holster still when he is dead. The pissant who works at costco is wrong about him having a gun in his hand for the same reason, he simply presumed it because the guy was shot after being told "put it down".

That 911 call shed a lot of light on what happened as it is the only actual evidence that we've seen that was actually unbiased. Yes, I'm saying it's unbiased because it was a conversation between two people, no matter who they were, describing the events as they were seen. The guy was acting strangely ripping open packaging, whether it was to find the perfect combination of products or to steal, and he was being disorderly to employees. He stayed int he store 15 minutes after he was asked to leave and told that it was against their policy to have guns in the store. This strange behavior caused the dispatcher to ask if drugs were involved and a "he may be" was turned into a "he is on them" between the caller and the police. He also may have just been adjusting his holster, but a hand on a gun makes most people uncomfortable, so that went from "He put his hand on his gun, but took it off" to "he has a gun in his hand". Now, the way that the employee described it, it seemed fine and the event should have ended there since he was leaving, but the police had a call of a man on drugs with a gun in his hand.

I do hope that the police that fired the shots are punished to the fullest extent of the law, but I am not seeing how Costco handled it badly since I heard that call. A guy was acting strangely and they suspected him of shoplifting. While watching him, they saw a gun. They asked him to leave and he refused. They removed themselves from the situation and contacted the police.

Tawnos · Oct 21, 2010

xxx.jakk.xxx said:
I am not seeing how Costco handled it badly since I heard that call.

When you join Costco, you pay a membership fee and agree to abide by their policies. In NO written policies do they mention no firearms are allowed. By enforcing the UNWRITTEN policy as a reason to kick him out of the store, calling the cops, exaggerating the situation as a means to justify your call (it happens in a lot of witness encounters), and then evacuating the store, you set up the conditions for this shootout.

Had it just been him opening the boxes, they could have told him he had to pay for the boxes he damaged and asked him to leave. There's no reason the gun should have even been an issue since Costco won't even put the no weapons policy in their membership agreement. They *certainly* shouldn't have called the cops about him having a firearm unless he was actually doing something to threaten people with it. You'll note that Shay says that he didn't threaten anyone, but was just acting erratically (i.e. opening boxes to look for a certain canteen).

xxx.jakk.xxx · Oct 21, 2010

He was asked to leave by management. Whether it's a real policy or not, once he was asked to leave then he was trespassing. In the call, you can hear Shay ask "Is the store being evacuated?" and then you hear a response that it isn't, they are just not allowing anymore people in.

Email from Costco tonight..

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

State Researcher

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member