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Thread: MSP legal update NEW INFO!

  1. #1
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    MSP legal update NEW INFO!

    Mr. Ranson,

    I am the author of the Legal Update you you attached to your e-mail. Thank you for taking the time to confirm the validity of the document. It has not been posted on our MSP Legal Update Web site as the document has not been finalized. I will be making a slight change on page two under the MCL 28.425o section to accurately reflect that casino parking lots are included in the pistol free zones. Once approved through my chain of command, it will be assigned a Legal Update number and posted on the internet.

    Sincerely,


    Sergeant Aimee Maike
    Training and Standards Division
    Michigan State Police
    7426 N. Canal Road
    Lansing, MI 48913
    (517) 636-6031
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  2. #2
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!
    Good work Auto...

  3. #3
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Very Cool!

    I would offer to review this information as a person very familiar with MI Firearms Laws as they relate to Open Carry.

    I really like that the MSP has taken this on.

  4. #4
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Since this is the Division that sets the training requirements for MICOLES this is very good news!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  5. #5
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Mr. Ranson,

    I am the author of the Legal Update you you attached to your e-mail. Thank you for taking the time to confirm the validity of the document. It has not been posted on our MSP Legal Update Web site as the document has not been finalized. I will be making a slight change on page two under the MCL 28.425o section to accurately reflect that casino parking lots are included in the pistol free zones. Once approved through my chain of command, it will be assigned a Legal Update number and posted on the internet.

    Sincerely,


    Sergeant Aimee Maike
    Training and Standards Division
    Michigan State Police
    7426 N. Canal Road
    Lansing, MI 48913
    (517) 636-6031
    Well that is good news. Thanks for taking the effort to follow up on this. Well done.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Outdoorsman's Avatar
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    I'm not celebrating till I see it on the MSP website. Then it's high-fives!

  7. #7
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    I think this says a lot for the members of this forum. All should take a bow and continue to promote OC/CC in this state.
    Look how far we have come in the last three years; For the MSP to recognize and accept what we have been promoting is a huge step in the recognition of our efforts.

    I for one think this update should be included in the LEO packet, possibly even be sent as an update to all LEO agencies. It may help to bring county/city LEO's up to speed.

    JMO

  8. #8
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    I have initiated a dialog with the Sergeant about the legality of Casino parking lots under the law. As only the Casino not the Casino Enterprise is off limits according to the Casino MCL's the casino is defined as the building that gambling takes place in.

    NOTE and I agree with Warchild entirely!
    Last edited by autosurgeon; 10-20-2010 at 09:26 AM.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  9. #9
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    I have initiated a dialog with the Sergeant about the legality of Casino parking lots under the law. As only the Casino not the Casino Enterprise is off limits according to the Casino MCL's the casino is defined as the building that gambling takes place in.

    NOTE and I agree with Warchild entirely!
    Good direction on that, since it appears the MCL 28.425o (3) missed listing Subsection (2).

    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-425o

  10. #10
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Agreed, and this document will also be featured in the Open Carry Guide Project. Auto, we'll have to figure out exactly where that fits in together, but I'll shoot you an email once it's finalized and we'll get to work putting that in there.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  11. #11
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    I have the DRAFT COPY that was posted here, I will go over it with a "fine tooth comb" later today to see if there is anything that is missing, incomplete, inaccurate, etc.

    What do you think about reposting the DRAFT COPY since we now know it is not a fake? Many hands make light work!

  12. #12
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    I for one think this update should be included in the LEO packet, possibly even be sent as an update to all LEO agencies. It may help to bring county/city LEO's up to speed.
    All agencies get the update directly from the MSP, no?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  13. #13
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    I am beside myself. Once this is published MOC may need to redesign it's tri-fold. Heck, we could just pass that document out!

  14. #14
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Here is the DRAFT MSP legal update.

    Feel free to email suggestions to me and I will bring them up with the Sergeant. That way we are not bombarding from multiple directions.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    kudos to MSP for tackling this issue. it's great to see them clarify CPL OC in PFZs!
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  16. #16
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    I just read the document and this is a HUGE WIN for OCers across the state! They even threw in a court case that defined what it is to carry concealed! With that court case, people should (emphasize SHOULD) be able to open carry IWB as long as a good portion of the gun is visible.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

  17. #17
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    i believe that the earlier removal of the msp update 10-12 10 was a good call, at least until it could be authenticated. i am glade that it was real and the up date was reposted. EDA50 how ever got there hands on a draft copy , high five
    Last edited by khicks; 10-20-2010 at 11:42 AM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    We need to keep in mind even after published this document will have no legal force. Some A**hat cop, DA, and Judge could cause someone lots of trouble.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  19. #19
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    We need to keep in mind even after published this document will have no legal force. Some A**hat cop, DA, and Judge could cause someone lots of trouble.
    However this information is used when training new officers and retraining current ones so it still is a great benefit.

    Also the more things like this that are out there from various agencies the less likely it is that police officers will bother a person OCing.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  20. #20
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    I either don't understand or think this section needs to be changed. An individual without a CPL or otherwise exempted (E.G. a police officer) who transports a pistol in a vehicle to an area where he or she intended to "open carry" may be in violation of MCL 750.227. The way I read that is that O.C. is not considered a "lawful purpose" under MCL 750.231a.
    Last edited by maustin195; 10-20-2010 at 11:42 AM.

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    any lawful purpose covers open carry. self defense is a lawful purpose.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  22. #22
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maustin195 View Post
    I either don't understand or think this section needs to be changed. An individual without a CPL or otherwise exempted (E.G. a police officer) who transports a pistol in a vehicle to an area where he or she intended to "open carry" may be in violation of MCL 750.227. The way I read that is that O.C. is not considered a "lawful purpose" under MCL 750.231a.
    Notice that statute has the word "includes". This means any purpose that is lawful (ex: it isn't defined as being illegal in any law). The word "includes" doesn't mean "these and only these".

    Of course, lawyers will debate over what exactly the statute means...
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  23. #23
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    It would be my suggestion that once this document is published, we ask one of our friendly legislators in Lansing to submit it to the AG's office for legal review and a "stamp of approval".

  24. #24
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    any lawful purpose covers open carry. self defense is a lawful purpose.

    Correct
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    any lawful purpose covers open carry. self defense is a lawful purpose.
    Agreed, this worked for me as well with OCSD a few months ago.

    When is this going to come out? This could come in handy when we look into the Waterford schools issue. I should be able to start that back up next week.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 10-20-2010 at 12:55 PM. Reason: spelling

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