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Thread: Need help with discussion with Guilford County attorney on CHP process

  1. #1
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    Need help with discussion with Guilford County attorney on CHP process

    To qualify this and make it "on topic" if I get screwed on this I will always HAVE to OC and will not be "allowed" to go into restaurants serving alcohol etc... : ' )

    I went to renew my CHP in Guilford County this morning. I have become more interested with civil disobedience while following laws and statutes, but not "rules, feelings or opinions" of LEOs etc....

    They had a million forms for me to fill out for the renewal and all of them but one listed a NC Statute that required me to fill them out in order to get my CHP processed.

    One of them mentioned "Name; Social Security Number; Employer name and number; Spouse name, address and number; Nearest relative's name, address, and phone number."

    This was a manually computer drawn up form, with NO statute listed that required this. To tell you up front, I DID RECORD THE FOLLOWING CONVERSATIONS (although I think audio quality was not great). I did not fill out employer name and number, spouse name address and number or nearest relatives name address or phone number. The lady told me I had to fill it out blah blah blah. She said I would raise a "flag" in the system if I didn't fill them out. I asked if they were legally required, she said yes. I told her to my knowledge nowhere in the statutes was this info required, she disagreed.

    I spoke to her supervisor who said the same things and said that as long as I don't have anything to hide (same as police trying to breach your 4A by searching your car etc) I should just provide the info. I told them I did not feel comfortable giving out other people's information without their permission. She then told me she would process it but it might take longer than 90 days. I then told her it can't by law and they need to process it like any other application. She took my $75 and I walked out the door.

    She ran after me and said her Captain just got in and I could speak to him. He came out with a very intimidating attitude toward me. He was very pissed off for being the beginning of his shift. He said that although that page is not required by statutes, the Sheriff requires that info and he will not issue the permit without that info.

    I mentioned that NC is a Shall Issue state and he does not have the authority to do that. He must issue the permit within the required time period if I meet STATUTORY requirements. He said the Sheriff has the right to require any additional info or forms he sees fit (I CALL B.S.!). He said that they would not issue my permit if I don't give them the info.

    READ:
    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedl...hapter_14.html § 14‑415.12. Criteria to qualify for the issuance of a permit through § 14‑415.16. Renewal of permit

    I was running late for work so I asked "if I walk out of here and don't give you this information, WHO will be the responsible person for delaying or denying my permit; are you going to throw it away?"... HE SAID YES!!

    Then he later denied he said he would throw it away (I have it on TAPE), but did say it would delay and would take longer than 90 days and they still would likely deny my app. I got County attorney's name and number to call later. While I was typing this the Captain called me and said he spoke to the County attorney and I AM REQUIRED to provide that info along with my SSN (even though on the sheet it says I am not required to provide it). Captain Bruce read out the statute stating that the Sheriff can require all this info I left out to conduct a background investigation on me. Since he claimed he read it from the statutes, and said it is required by law, I provided it to him> Now that I am looking back, it appears to me he BS'ed me and I don't see that listed anywhere in statutes.

    Captain Bruce said that he had my Forsyth County application from 5 years ago and was just going to take all my person info off of that application, including my SSN. Something is WRONG here!

    So pissed right now and trying to figure out what to do. Can you guys please help me dig further for any personal experiences or case law like this? I want to know what to do when calling County attorney.

    THANKS guys and gals for any help you can give me!

  2. #2
    Regular Member elixin77's Avatar
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    IANAL, but best advice would be to lawyer up, play them the tape, and go from there. Don't know what can or can't be accomplished, but you can at least make this sheriff get back in line if he's out of it
    Taurus PT1911 .45 ACP. Carried in condition 1, with a total of 25 rounds.

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  3. #3
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Don't waste your time with the City Attorney.

    Call the State Attorney Generals office. Ask them if these forms are requires, if if they are not, tell them they need to call your Sheriff and advise them as to the PROPER Statutory procedure for issuing CHPs.

    If that doesn't get you anywhere, then you need to talk to a private practice attorney specializing in NC firearms law...

    I a NOT a believer in "working my way up the chain". If I get jerked around by a local administrative official, I go to the highest local official over them right away, and then, if there is still no result, I go to the State AG (or appropriate State office...)

    If you get denied, you can always appeal. And THAT would be the time to pull out your voice recordings. There are few joys in life as sweet as enabling a crooked LEO to "show his a$$ in court, in front of a judge, with irrefutable evidence...


    BTW, it is ILLEGAL for ANYONE except the IRS to require you to submit your SSN on a form. They can ask for it, but you do NOT have to provide it. Even the BATFE can't require a SSN for your firearms transfer forms...

    And they MUST issue it (or deny your app) within 90 days--that is the LAW in NC. No delays, no hold ups, no excuses. It's the LAW.
    Last edited by Dreamer; 10-20-2010 at 11:55 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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  4. #4
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    Thanks Dreamer for the inspiration. I was counting on you to pull me through this one. I will contact the AG tomorrow!

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    As usual Dreamer is spot on. I would only add that this is a hot button issue for GRNC and I would give them a call. It sounds like something Valone would love to get his teeth into unless he is up to his elbows in election matters.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Don't waste your time with the City Attorney.

    Call the State Attorney Generals office. Ask them if these forms are requires, if if they are not, tell them they need to call your Sheriff and advise them as to the PROPER Statutory procedure for issuing CHPs.

    If that doesn't get you anywhere, then you need to talk to a private practice attorney specializing in NC firearms law...

    I a NOT a believer in "working my way up the chain". If I get jerked around by a local administrative official, I go to the highest local official over them right away, and then, if there is still no result, I go to the State AG (or appropriate State office...)

    If you get denied, you can always appeal. And THAT would be the time to pull out your voice recordings. There are few joys in life as sweet as enabling a crooked LEO to "show his a$$ in court, in front of a judge, with irrefutable evidence...


    BTW, it is ILLEGAL for ANYONE except the IRS to require you to submit your SSN on a form. They can ask for it, but you do NOT have to provide it. Even the BATFE can't require a SSN for your firearms transfer forms...

    And they MUST issue it (or deny your app) within 90 days--that is the LAW in NC. No delays, no hold ups, no excuses. It's the LAW.
    The AG is the place to start.

    This problem is like OC. No law saying you cannot open carry. The sheriff needs to be able to identify you. Since there are no guide lines for this there are 100 sheriff's with 100 different requirements. Not really 100, some require less info some more.

  7. #7
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    Please call me

    With respect to non-standard forms and information required by the Guilford Co. Sheriff (who would be BJ Barnes), please call me at 704-907-9206. I've had issues with him before, and suspect it could be solved with a phone call.

    Paul Valone

    Quote Originally Posted by farkles View Post
    To qualify this and make it "on topic" if I get screwed on this I will always HAVE to OC and will not be "allowed" to go into restaurants serving alcohol etc... : ' )

    I went to renew my CHP in Guilford County this morning. I have become more interested with civil disobedience while following laws and statutes, but not "rules, feelings or opinions" of LEOs etc....

    They had a million forms for me to fill out for the renewal and all of them but one listed a NC Statute that required me to fill them out in order to get my CHP processed.

    One of them mentioned "Name; Social Security Number; Employer name and number; Spouse name, address and number; Nearest relative's name, address, and phone number."

    This was a manually computer drawn up form, with NO statute listed that required this. To tell you up front, I DID RECORD THE FOLLOWING CONVERSATIONS (although I think audio quality was not great). I did not fill out employer name and number, spouse name address and number or nearest relatives name address or phone number. The lady told me I had to fill it out blah blah blah. She said I would raise a "flag" in the system if I didn't fill them out. I asked if they were legally required, she said yes. I told her to my knowledge nowhere in the statutes was this info required, she disagreed.

    I spoke to her supervisor who said the same things and said that as long as I don't have anything to hide (same as police trying to breach your 4A by searching your car etc) I should just provide the info. I told them I did not feel comfortable giving out other people's information without their permission. She then told me she would process it but it might take longer than 90 days. I then told her it can't by law and they need to process it like any other application. She took my $75 and I walked out the door.

    She ran after me and said her Captain just got in and I could speak to him. He came out with a very intimidating attitude toward me. He was very pissed off for being the beginning of his shift. He said that although that page is not required by statutes, the Sheriff requires that info and he will not issue the permit without that info.

    I mentioned that NC is a Shall Issue state and he does not have the authority to do that. He must issue the permit within the required time period if I meet STATUTORY requirements. He said the Sheriff has the right to require any additional info or forms he sees fit (I CALL B.S.!). He said that they would not issue my permit if I don't give them the info.

    READ:
    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedl...hapter_14.html § 14‑415.12. Criteria to qualify for the issuance of a permit through § 14‑415.16. Renewal of permit

    I was running late for work so I asked "if I walk out of here and don't give you this information, WHO will be the responsible person for delaying or denying my permit; are you going to throw it away?"... HE SAID YES!!

    Then he later denied he said he would throw it away (I have it on TAPE), but did say it would delay and would take longer than 90 days and they still would likely deny my app. I got County attorney's name and number to call later. While I was typing this the Captain called me and said he spoke to the County attorney and I AM REQUIRED to provide that info along with my SSN (even though on the sheet it says I am not required to provide it). Captain Bruce read out the statute stating that the Sheriff can require all this info I left out to conduct a background investigation on me. Since he claimed he read it from the statutes, and said it is required by law, I provided it to him> Now that I am looking back, it appears to me he BS'ed me and I don't see that listed anywhere in statutes.

    Captain Bruce said that he had my Forsyth County application from 5 years ago and was just going to take all my person info off of that application, including my SSN. Something is WRONG here!

    So pissed right now and trying to figure out what to do. Can you guys please help me dig further for any personal experiences or case law like this? I want to know what to do when calling County attorney.

    THANKS guys and gals for any help you can give me!

  8. #8
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FPV02 View Post
    With respect to non-standard forms and information required by the Guilford Co. Sheriff (who would be BJ Barnes), please call me at xxx-xxx-xxxx. I've had issues with him before, and suspect it could be solved with a phone call.

    Paul Valone
    You may want to pull your phone number off of this website and send it as a pm instead. Remember that these forums are visible to anyone.

  9. #9
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    Dont' know if the form the Sheriff used is NON-Standard but here is the statute specifying what is required on the form....

    § 14‑415.14. Application form to be provided by sheriff; information to be included in application form.

    (a) The sheriff shall make permit applications readily available at the office of the sheriff or at other public offices in the sheriff's jurisdiction. The permit application shall be in triplicate, in a form to be prescribed by the Administrative Office of the Courts, and shall include the following information with regard to the applicant: name, address, physical description, signature, date of birth, social security number, military status, law enforcement status, and the drivers license number or State identification card number of the applicant if used for identification in applying for the permit.

    (b) The permit application shall also contain a warning substantially as follows:

    "CAUTION: Federal law and State law on the possession of handguns and firearms differ. If you are prohibited by federal law from possessing a handgun or a firearm, you may be prosecuted in federal court. A State permit is not a defense to a federal prosecution."

    (c) Any person or entity who is presented by the applicant or by the sheriff with an original or photocopied release form as described in G.S. 14‑415.13(a)(5) shall promptly disclose to the sheriff any records concerning the mental health or capacity of the applicant who signed the form and authorized the release of the records. (1995, c. 398, s. 1; 1997‑274, s. 3; 2000‑140, s. 103; 2000‑191, s. 3.)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by sultan62 View Post
    You may want to pull your phone number off of this website and send it as a pm instead. Remember that these forums are visible to anyone.
    Paul doesn't try to hide, that phone number is for the public to use to contact him.

  11. #11
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    Find an attorney in North Carolina and sue the Sheriff for violating Section 7 of the Federal Privacy Act by not warning you that SSN disclsoure is voluntary. See http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documen...s/06d0225p.pdf

  12. #12
    Regular Member razor_baghdad's Avatar
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    wow

    Super Mod Mike, he could pop that .pdf out to text, replace a few names and states, pop it into word, then .pdf that and save the lawyer fees.....

    Outstanding that you beat the state!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Find an attorney in North Carolina and sue the Sheriff for violating Section 7 of the Federal Privacy Act by not warning you that SSN disclsoure is voluntary. See http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documen...s/06d0225p.pdf
    Mike,

    Different point in my case, but I suspect could be more intense? The application provided DOES state that they cannot legally require my SSN, so I DID NOT include my SSN. BUT, later when Capt Bruce called me back he told me it IS required for them to submit my application. I told him it was not and he should read the back of the form that he should be familiar with where it states it is not legally required. He then told me he already had my SSN from something he pulled from another county in the past and HE wrote it on MY application. I really question the legality of that. He was being very "nice" and trying to be/appear empathetic, but in the end he wrote information on my application I don't believe is legal and I requested he not include and I told him I was not comfortable giving to him.

    Farkles

  14. #14
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Yeah, that seems like a MAJOR breach of personal privacy to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by farkles View Post
    Mike,

    Different point in my case, but I suspect could be more intense? The application provided DOES state that they cannot legally require my SSN, so I DID NOT include my SSN. BUT, later when Capt Bruce called me back he told me it IS required for them to submit my application. I told him it was not and he should read the back of the form that he should be familiar with where it states it is not legally required. He then told me he already had my SSN from something he pulled from another county in the past and HE wrote it on MY application. I really question the legality of that. He was being very "nice" and trying to be/appear empathetic, but in the end he wrote information on my application I don't believe is legal and I requested he not include and I told him I was not comfortable giving to him.

    Farkles
    So a LEO changed an application that you swore to being correct under penalty of law? And did so against your wishes...

    Damn, why cant I ever get things like this happen to me, my bank account could really use the boost from such a lawsuit.

  16. #16
    Regular Member oldbanger's Avatar
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    When I applied for my CWP in Idaho, the application form said "SSN (optional) so I left it blank. The clerk said OK but I would have to put it on the fingerprint forms anyway!
    or they could not do the background check.... Yes I folded.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mekender View Post
    So a LEO changed an application that you swore to being correct under penalty of law? And did so against your wishes...

    Damn, why cant I ever get things like this happen to me, my bank account could really use the boost from such a lawsuit.
    Exactly right. Hopefully we will figure out a solution to this.

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