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Need help with discussion with Guilford County attorney on CHP process

farkles

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2010
Messages
150
Location
Greensboro, NC
To qualify this and make it "on topic" if I get screwed on this I will always HAVE to OC and will not be "allowed" to go into restaurants serving alcohol etc... : ' )

I went to renew my CHP in Guilford County this morning. I have become more interested with civil disobedience while following laws and statutes, but not "rules, feelings or opinions" of LEOs etc....

They had a million forms for me to fill out for the renewal and all of them but one listed a NC Statute that required me to fill them out in order to get my CHP processed.

One of them mentioned "Name; Social Security Number; Employer name and number; Spouse name, address and number; Nearest relative's name, address, and phone number."

This was a manually computer drawn up form, with NO statute listed that required this. To tell you up front, I DID RECORD THE FOLLOWING CONVERSATIONS (although I think audio quality was not great). I did not fill out employer name and number, spouse name address and number or nearest relatives name address or phone number. The lady told me I had to fill it out blah blah blah. She said I would raise a "flag" in the system if I didn't fill them out. I asked if they were legally required, she said yes. I told her to my knowledge nowhere in the statutes was this info required, she disagreed.

I spoke to her supervisor who said the same things and said that as long as I don't have anything to hide (same as police trying to breach your 4A by searching your car etc) I should just provide the info. I told them I did not feel comfortable giving out other people's information without their permission. She then told me she would process it but it might take longer than 90 days. I then told her it can't by law and they need to process it like any other application. She took my $75 and I walked out the door.

She ran after me and said her Captain just got in and I could speak to him. He came out with a very intimidating attitude toward me. He was very pissed off for being the beginning of his shift. He said that although that page is not required by statutes, the Sheriff requires that info and he will not issue the permit without that info.

I mentioned that NC is a Shall Issue state and he does not have the authority to do that. He must issue the permit within the required time period if I meet STATUTORY requirements. He said the Sheriff has the right to require any additional info or forms he sees fit (I CALL B.S.!). He said that they would not issue my permit if I don't give them the info.

READ:
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bychapter/chapter_14.html § 14‑415.12. Criteria to qualify for the issuance of a permit through § 14‑415.16. Renewal of permit

I was running late for work so I asked "if I walk out of here and don't give you this information, WHO will be the responsible person for delaying or denying my permit; are you going to throw it away?"... HE SAID YES!!

Then he later denied he said he would throw it away (I have it on TAPE), but did say it would delay and would take longer than 90 days and they still would likely deny my app. I got County attorney's name and number to call later. While I was typing this the Captain called me and said he spoke to the County attorney and I AM REQUIRED to provide that info along with my SSN (even though on the sheet it says I am not required to provide it). Captain Bruce read out the statute stating that the Sheriff can require all this info I left out to conduct a background investigation on me. Since he claimed he read it from the statutes, and said it is required by law, I provided it to him> Now that I am looking back, it appears to me he BS'ed me and I don't see that listed anywhere in statutes.

Captain Bruce said that he had my Forsyth County application from 5 years ago and was just going to take all my person info off of that application, including my SSN. Something is WRONG here!

So pissed right now and trying to figure out what to do. Can you guys please help me dig further for any personal experiences or case law like this? I want to know what to do when calling County attorney.

THANKS guys and gals for any help you can give me!
 

elixin77

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2010
Messages
591
Location
Greenville, NC, ,
IANAL, but best advice would be to lawyer up, play them the tape, and go from there. Don't know what can or can't be accomplished, but you can at least make this sheriff get back in line if he's out of it
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
Don't waste your time with the City Attorney.

Call the State Attorney Generals office. Ask them if these forms are requires, if if they are not, tell them they need to call your Sheriff and advise them as to the PROPER Statutory procedure for issuing CHPs.

If that doesn't get you anywhere, then you need to talk to a private practice attorney specializing in NC firearms law...

I a NOT a believer in "working my way up the chain". If I get jerked around by a local administrative official, I go to the highest local official over them right away, and then, if there is still no result, I go to the State AG (or appropriate State office...)

If you get denied, you can always appeal. And THAT would be the time to pull out your voice recordings. There are few joys in life as sweet as enabling a crooked LEO to "show his a$$ in court, in front of a judge, with irrefutable evidence...


BTW, it is ILLEGAL for ANYONE except the IRS to require you to submit your SSN on a form. They can ask for it, but you do NOT have to provide it. Even the BATFE can't require a SSN for your firearms transfer forms...

And they MUST issue it (or deny your app) within 90 days--that is the LAW in NC. No delays, no hold ups, no excuses. It's the LAW.
 
Last edited:

farkles

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2010
Messages
150
Location
Greensboro, NC
Thanks Dreamer for the inspiration. I was counting on you to pull me through this one. I will contact the AG tomorrow!
 

buzzsaw

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
189
Location
Sneads Ferry, ,
As usual Dreamer is spot on. I would only add that this is a hot button issue for GRNC and I would give them a call. It sounds like something Valone would love to get his teeth into unless he is up to his elbows in election matters.
 

cricketdad

Regular Member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
381
Location
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
Don't waste your time with the City Attorney.

Call the State Attorney Generals office. Ask them if these forms are requires, if if they are not, tell them they need to call your Sheriff and advise them as to the PROPER Statutory procedure for issuing CHPs.

If that doesn't get you anywhere, then you need to talk to a private practice attorney specializing in NC firearms law...

I a NOT a believer in "working my way up the chain". If I get jerked around by a local administrative official, I go to the highest local official over them right away, and then, if there is still no result, I go to the State AG (or appropriate State office...)

If you get denied, you can always appeal. And THAT would be the time to pull out your voice recordings. There are few joys in life as sweet as enabling a crooked LEO to "show his a$$ in court, in front of a judge, with irrefutable evidence...


BTW, it is ILLEGAL for ANYONE except the IRS to require you to submit your SSN on a form. They can ask for it, but you do NOT have to provide it. Even the BATFE can't require a SSN for your firearms transfer forms...

And they MUST issue it (or deny your app) within 90 days--that is the LAW in NC. No delays, no hold ups, no excuses. It's the LAW.

The AG is the place to start.

This problem is like OC. No law saying you cannot open carry. The sheriff needs to be able to identify you. Since there are no guide lines for this there are 100 sheriff's with 100 different requirements. Not really 100, some require less info some more.
 

FPV02

Regular Member
Joined
May 9, 2010
Messages
35
Location
, ,
Please call me

With respect to non-standard forms and information required by the Guilford Co. Sheriff (who would be BJ Barnes), please call me at 704-907-9206. I've had issues with him before, and suspect it could be solved with a phone call.

Paul Valone

To qualify this and make it "on topic" if I get screwed on this I will always HAVE to OC and will not be "allowed" to go into restaurants serving alcohol etc... : ' )

I went to renew my CHP in Guilford County this morning. I have become more interested with civil disobedience while following laws and statutes, but not "rules, feelings or opinions" of LEOs etc....

They had a million forms for me to fill out for the renewal and all of them but one listed a NC Statute that required me to fill them out in order to get my CHP processed.

One of them mentioned "Name; Social Security Number; Employer name and number; Spouse name, address and number; Nearest relative's name, address, and phone number."

This was a manually computer drawn up form, with NO statute listed that required this. To tell you up front, I DID RECORD THE FOLLOWING CONVERSATIONS (although I think audio quality was not great). I did not fill out employer name and number, spouse name address and number or nearest relatives name address or phone number. The lady told me I had to fill it out blah blah blah. She said I would raise a "flag" in the system if I didn't fill them out. I asked if they were legally required, she said yes. I told her to my knowledge nowhere in the statutes was this info required, she disagreed.

I spoke to her supervisor who said the same things and said that as long as I don't have anything to hide (same as police trying to breach your 4A by searching your car etc) I should just provide the info. I told them I did not feel comfortable giving out other people's information without their permission. She then told me she would process it but it might take longer than 90 days. I then told her it can't by law and they need to process it like any other application. She took my $75 and I walked out the door.

She ran after me and said her Captain just got in and I could speak to him. He came out with a very intimidating attitude toward me. He was very pissed off for being the beginning of his shift. He said that although that page is not required by statutes, the Sheriff requires that info and he will not issue the permit without that info.

I mentioned that NC is a Shall Issue state and he does not have the authority to do that. He must issue the permit within the required time period if I meet STATUTORY requirements. He said the Sheriff has the right to require any additional info or forms he sees fit (I CALL B.S.!). He said that they would not issue my permit if I don't give them the info.

READ:
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bychapter/chapter_14.html § 14‑415.12. Criteria to qualify for the issuance of a permit through § 14‑415.16. Renewal of permit

I was running late for work so I asked "if I walk out of here and don't give you this information, WHO will be the responsible person for delaying or denying my permit; are you going to throw it away?"... HE SAID YES!!

Then he later denied he said he would throw it away (I have it on TAPE), but did say it would delay and would take longer than 90 days and they still would likely deny my app. I got County attorney's name and number to call later. While I was typing this the Captain called me and said he spoke to the County attorney and I AM REQUIRED to provide that info along with my SSN (even though on the sheet it says I am not required to provide it). Captain Bruce read out the statute stating that the Sheriff can require all this info I left out to conduct a background investigation on me. Since he claimed he read it from the statutes, and said it is required by law, I provided it to him> Now that I am looking back, it appears to me he BS'ed me and I don't see that listed anywhere in statutes.

Captain Bruce said that he had my Forsyth County application from 5 years ago and was just going to take all my person info off of that application, including my SSN. Something is WRONG here!

So pissed right now and trying to figure out what to do. Can you guys please help me dig further for any personal experiences or case law like this? I want to know what to do when calling County attorney.

THANKS guys and gals for any help you can give me!
 

sultan62

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,311
Location
Clayton, NC
With respect to non-standard forms and information required by the Guilford Co. Sheriff (who would be BJ Barnes), please call me at xxx-xxx-xxxx. I've had issues with him before, and suspect it could be solved with a phone call.

Paul Valone

You may want to pull your phone number off of this website and send it as a pm instead. Remember that these forums are visible to anyone.
 

JoeSparky

Centurion
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,621
Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
Dont' know if the form the Sheriff used is NON-Standard but here is the statute specifying what is required on the form....

§ 14‑415.14. Application form to be provided by sheriff; information to be included in application form.

(a) The sheriff shall make permit applications readily available at the office of the sheriff or at other public offices in the sheriff's jurisdiction. The permit application shall be in triplicate, in a form to be prescribed by the Administrative Office of the Courts, and shall include the following information with regard to the applicant: name, address, physical description, signature, date of birth, social security number, military status, law enforcement status, and the drivers license number or State identification card number of the applicant if used for identification in applying for the permit.

(b) The permit application shall also contain a warning substantially as follows:

"CAUTION: Federal law and State law on the possession of handguns and firearms differ. If you are prohibited by federal law from possessing a handgun or a firearm, you may be prosecuted in federal court. A State permit is not a defense to a federal prosecution."

(c) Any person or entity who is presented by the applicant or by the sheriff with an original or photocopied release form as described in G.S. 14‑415.13(a)(5) shall promptly disclose to the sheriff any records concerning the mental health or capacity of the applicant who signed the form and authorized the release of the records. (1995, c. 398, s. 1; 1997‑274, s. 3; 2000‑140, s. 103; 2000‑191, s. 3.)
 

razor_baghdad

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
277
Location
CONUS ~for now~
wow

Super Mod Mike, he could pop that .pdf out to text, replace a few names and states, pop it into word, then .pdf that and save the lawyer fees.....

Outstanding that you beat the state!
 

farkles

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2010
Messages
150
Location
Greensboro, NC
Find an attorney in North Carolina and sue the Sheriff for violating Section 7 of the Federal Privacy Act by not warning you that SSN disclsoure is voluntary. See http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/opinions/06d0225p.pdf

Mike,

Different point in my case, but I suspect could be more intense? The application provided DOES state that they cannot legally require my SSN, so I DID NOT include my SSN. BUT, later when Capt Bruce called me back he told me it IS required for them to submit my application. I told him it was not and he should read the back of the form that he should be familiar with where it states it is not legally required. He then told me he already had my SSN from something he pulled from another county in the past and HE wrote it on MY application. I really question the legality of that. He was being very "nice" and trying to be/appear empathetic, but in the end he wrote information on my application I don't believe is legal and I requested he not include and I told him I was not comfortable giving to him.

Farkles
 

mekender

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
462
Location
, ,
Mike,

Different point in my case, but I suspect could be more intense? The application provided DOES state that they cannot legally require my SSN, so I DID NOT include my SSN. BUT, later when Capt Bruce called me back he told me it IS required for them to submit my application. I told him it was not and he should read the back of the form that he should be familiar with where it states it is not legally required. He then told me he already had my SSN from something he pulled from another county in the past and HE wrote it on MY application. I really question the legality of that. He was being very "nice" and trying to be/appear empathetic, but in the end he wrote information on my application I don't believe is legal and I requested he not include and I told him I was not comfortable giving to him.

Farkles

So a LEO changed an application that you swore to being correct under penalty of law? And did so against your wishes...

Damn, why cant I ever get things like this happen to me, my bank account could really use the boost from such a lawsuit.
 

oldbanger

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
475
Location
beckofbeyond - Idaho
When I applied for my CWP in Idaho, the application form said "SSN (optional) so I left it blank. The clerk said OK but I would have to put it on the fingerprint forms anyway!
or they could not do the background check.... Yes I folded.
 

farkles

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2010
Messages
150
Location
Greensboro, NC
So a LEO changed an application that you swore to being correct under penalty of law? And did so against your wishes...

Damn, why cant I ever get things like this happen to me, my bank account could really use the boost from such a lawsuit.

Exactly right. Hopefully we will figure out a solution to this.
 
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