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Thread: A conversation with a friend in CA about UOC

  1. #1
    Regular Member rotty's Avatar
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    A conversation with a friend in CA about UOC

    Chris and I became friends in 1985 when he moved from Detroit into the home next to my parents to live with his aunt and uncle. We got in a lot of trouble, partied way too much, and did what most kids of the time did - screw off as much as possible, party as much as possible, and just have a good time as teenagers.

    Years passed and friends drift. I myself still reside in MN and Chris moved to California to pursue his acting career and eventually met a woman and started a family. We have always kept in touch and tried to get together whenever work would allow which for me was quite often.

    This last Friday, 10/15, I was having a conversation with my friend on the telephone about the battle for open carry and permitting in CA and asked him if he was going to try to UOC due to a nasty custody battle he was in. His reply to me was " if I carry it unloaded and something goes down, what if I don't have time to get it loaded ? "

    To that question, I did not have a good answer. I tried to explain to him that even having the ability to protect himself could someday save his life. If I had only known what was going to take place in the next 24 hours for my friend maybe I could have changed his mind.

    As many know a custody battle is an ugly thing. And in the state of California it is almost impossible for the father to gain rights under current laws much less WIN custody completely. Well after 2 years of fighting, harsh unfounded allegations, lie detector tests, depositions, and countless hearings and fees my friend DID WIN.

    The morning his daughter was to be brought home I awaited a call from him so I could say hello to her and welcome her home. The call never came.

    At approx 10AM on Saturday October 16th, my friend was brutally attacked in front of his home in a gated community in Anaheim CA. He was beaten so badly that he was unrecognizable and left for dead. Multiple skull fractures, nose, eye sockets, jaw, neck damage, and bleeding in the brain.

    The city has listed this as a Felony assault on it's website however we are being told that the police are investigating it as an attempted homicide.

    Would he have had a chance to load and possibly protect himself ? I do not know.
    Would the sight alone of a handgun have made his attacker think twice ? I do not know.

    I don't know why I posted this on the site other than the fact to let people know that you need to be aware. Even in broad daylight, be aware. At home when you think you are safe, be aware.

    I have very real issue with these states that do not allow us to protect ourselves and personally can not imagine living somewhere that I am not afforded that ability in some reasonable context.
    - Knowledge is power and there IS strength in numbers -

    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
    - Thomas Jefferson

  2. #2
    Regular Member Publius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotty View Post
    His reply to me was " if I carry it unloaded and something goes down, what if I don't have time to get it loaded ? "
    As someone who Open Carrys in California, this is a question I deal with often.

    My response is usually,

    "Yes, an unloaded gun that needs to be loaded is not as effective as an already loaded gun, however even if it took you a full 10 seconds to load your firearm, which it would only really take 2-3 seconds, that would still be a full 5+ minutes quicker than the average response time by police officer."

    I hope your friend recovers and they are able to apprehend those responsible for his injury's.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    I would rather have a slim chance than no chance.

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    Regular Member Coded-Dude's Avatar
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    California generally prohibits the carrying of a concealed firearm on the person in public or within any vehicle under his or her control or in which he or she is an occupant. California Penal Code § 12025(a). Conduct that would normally violate section 12025 may be justified where a person possessing a concealable firearm reasonably believes that he or she is in grave danger because of circumstances forming the basis of a current court-issued restraining order against another person or persons who has or have been found to pose a threat to the possessor’s life or safety. Section 12025.5(a).
    It seems there is some leeway for CC without permit, but you probably have a hard time trying to justify the case. However, the above scenario was legitimate, just not necessarily provable until after the fact(which is very sad).

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    As many know a custody battle is an ugly thing. And in the state of California it is almost impossible for the father to gain rights under current laws much less WIN custody completely. Well after 2 years of fighting, harsh unfounded allegations, lie detector tests, depositions, and countless hearings and fees my friend DID WIN.

    At approx 10AM on Saturday October 16th, my friend was brutally attacked in front of his home in a gated community in Anaheim CA. He was beaten so badly that he was unrecognizable and left for dead. Multiple skull fractures, nose, eye sockets, jaw, neck damage, and bleeding in the brain.
    I see a possible connection and investigating Authorities may soon have a suspect. I hope your friend undergoes a full recovery from his massive injuries.

    Yes, unloaded open carry in California is a stupid law that I hope some day will be repealed.

  6. #6
    Regular Member rotty's Avatar
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    Update

    I have been in close contact with my friends family who is now by his side and this is the news I have been able to gather.

    Cranial, facial, and jaw fractures
    Broken eye sockets
    Tear Duct destroyed in one eye
    Broken teeth
    Contusion to the back of the head
    Blurred Vision that they suspect will correct itself once the swelling goes down
    The brain bleed is under control

    The Anaheim police have assigned 2 detectives to the case and are in fact investigating it as an attempted homicide. The ex wives boyfriend was incarcerated the morning of the attack so he has been ruled out. The video evidence is at this point not clear enough to see what they want to see. The detectives are being vague and are not saying anything more than that they have video of the vehicle involved and are attempting to enhance it to try and get the plate number or a better photo of the suspect.

    They found NO defensive wounds on my friend and at this point are concluding he was attacked from behind and the initial blow rendered him unconscious.

    His wallet, cell phone, and keys were all missing from the scene.

    The coincidences are just too visible for me and I hope and pray for justice sooner rather than later.

    Thanks for the well wishes and remember SITUATIONAL AWARENESS even when you FEEL safe or are in familiar surroundings.

    **on a side note I am sending my .38 out Fedex today so he has something when he goes home from the hospital.. his .45 auto is missing.
    - Knowledge is power and there IS strength in numbers -

    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
    - Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I don't know that I could ever recommend to someone that they carry an unloaded gun, aside from perhaps strictly as a form of activism, and not as a weapon. This is particularly true in LA and the Bay. I would feel safer unarmed, walking around with my hands in my pockets with a look on my face that says I wanna fight someone. This at least implies I've got a gun and can kill someone in a second flat, even if it isn't true. I've seen this done frequently in the bay and detroit, and it works well for those who do it.

    Criminals in the bay and LA, which includes many of the police, are already very bold because their victims are almost always disarmed. Proving it to them by being stupid enough to carry an unloaded gun is not something I can suggest in good conscience.

    Situational awareness and verbal de-escalation skills are probably 90% of the issue of staying safe from attack. The other 10% is about being armed. For that 10%, rather than an unloaded handgun which when seconds count will amount to a sub par club, I'd rather have ammoniated cleaner in a nose spray bottle with a decent pocket knife. Anything but a giant sign that says "shoot me", which if you ask me is all that Kali style unconstitutional open carry amounts to when done as a form of self defense.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    I still see a connection between the attack on your friend and his custody battle with exwife. A simple mugging and robbery wouldn't inflict that much physical damage to your friends head. IMO, someone was out to inflict serious damage on him and they took their time to really worked him over.

    The wifes boyfriend may have a convenient alibi, but I'll wager he has friends he can call on for help in a dispute with someone.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Publius's Avatar
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    If it means anything, from the sound of it, it wouldn't have mattered if your friend had a loaded gun in hand sense he was likely attacked from behind and knocked unconscious. Guns can't stop crazy or violence, they can help us more effectively come to the aid of others facing crazy or violence, the same way CPR doesn't help us if we are having a heart attack, we learn it to help others having a heart attack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GWbiker View Post
    I still see a connection between the attack on your friend and his custody battle with exwife. A simple mugging and robbery wouldn't inflict that much physical damage to your friends head. IMO, someone was out to inflict serious damage on him and they took their time to really worked him over.

    The wifes boyfriend may have a convenient alibi, but I'll wager he has friends he can call on for help in a dispute with someone.
    I would agree. If it's not connected than you friend has some really pissed off enemies. Hoping he makes a full recovery.

  11. #11
    Regular Member COMMANDER1911's Avatar
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    I will never carry an unloaded gun. My life and the lives of my family are too precious. If the law doesnt recognize my human right to carry a loaded gun, then so be it. I'd rather be in front of a jury instead of at a funeral.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotty View Post
    The Anaheim police have assigned 2 detectives to the case and are in fact investigating it as an attempted homicide. The ex wives boyfriend was incarcerated the morning of the attack so he has been ruled out.
    He may have been ruled out as the primary perp, but I wouldn't rule him out as having conspired towards the hit on your friend.

    Motive: Yes
    Opportunity: Yes, for conspiracy to commit murder, particularly incarcerated with other felons who maintain connections with the outside.

    His wallet, cell phone, and keys were all missing from the scene.
    Made to look like a robbery, but if it's just a robbery, and he was unconscious, why beat him to near death?

    SITUATIONAL AWARENESS even when you FEEL safe or are in familiar surroundings.
    Always! Even when you're in your own home. It only takes three seconds to kick down most doors, run into the house and shoot someone.

    I hope and pray the best for your friend. Where's the child now? Still in custody with the ex and her incarcerated boyfriend?

    Quote Originally Posted by COMMANDER1911 View Post
    I will never carry an unloaded gun. My life and the lives of my family are too precious. If the law doesnt recognize my human right to carry a loaded gun, then so be it. I'd rather be in front of a jury instead of at a funeral.
    While I agree with you that UOC laws are both ignorant and stupid, your comment supposes just two possible outcomes, when there are actually several possible outcomes, including the one where you had enough time to load anyway.

    I strongly encourage you not to recommend people break the law simply to save that last two seconds when the liklihood they'll need it averages only 1 day out of 10,000 to 20,000. Most states with UOC laws on the books do checks on a regular basis, and if you're not in compliance, your fines could be steep, with possible jail time, and forteiture of legal authority to own, much less carry, a firearm at all. Without that authority, if one chooses to carry anyway, one's jail time extends to months, if not years.

    It's better to save those two seconds by being more situationally aware, than to break the law by carrying loaded in an UOC state.
    Last edited by since9; 10-26-2010 at 07:10 PM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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