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Thread: what is the difference?

  1. #1
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Cool what is the difference?

    seriously- if i have to have a CWL here in florida, go through a "class" and "training" and be certified to carry a weapon, then why does it MATTER if i open carry or conceal carry? it's a HUUGE responsibility to CC in florida- when it's hot, and i'm wearing a light shirt, it's nearly impossible to not "print"- a big no-no. so if they trust me enough to hide my weapon from everyone else, and be responsible enough to keep it concealed, and wear the right type of clothing, and to stay away from places that i can't carry (which they wouldn't know if i carried there or not since it's concealed), then why can't they trust me enough to wear my XD40 in a blackhawk serpa out in the open?

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    The problem you face in Florida concerning OC is the way your state Constitution is written......

    SECTION 8. Right to bear arms.--

    (a) The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law.

    An additional problem is the large number of Florida residents with concealed carry weapon permits who are convinced that OC is a bad idea.

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWbiker View Post
    The problem you face in Florida concerning OC is the way your state Constitution is written......

    SECTION 8. Right to bear arms.--

    (a) The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law.

    An additional problem is the large number of Florida residents with concealed carry weapon permits who are convinced that OC is a bad idea.
    I'm by no means an expert, or a lawyer-but it seems that would be INCREDIBLY easy to strike down.

    They state plainly (since they use the word except that they are infringing on RKBA.

    Someone should get on that-get that law canned, hopefully going all the way to the SC to do it. Set a precedent for constitutional carry all over the US.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWbiker View Post
    The problem you face in Florida concerning OC is the way your state Constitution is written......

    SECTION 8. Right to bear arms.--

    (a) The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law.

    An additional problem is the large number of Florida residents with concealed carry weapon permits who are convinced that OC is a bad idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by sultan62 View Post
    I'm by no means an expert, or a lawyer-but it seems that would be INCREDIBLY easy to strike down.

    They state plainly (since they use the word except that they are infringing on RKBA.

    Someone should get on that-get that law canned, hopefully going all the way to the SC to do it. Set a precedent for constitutional carry all over the US.
    Since any challenge to the Florida Constitution would be heard by the Florida Supreme Court, not SCOTUS, there would be no precedent established.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  5. #5
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Since any challenge to the Florida Constitution would be heard by the Florida Supreme Court, not SCOTUS, there would be no precedent established.
    Even if the law in question was constitutional according to the FL constitution but not the US Constitution?

  6. #6
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sultan62 View Post
    Even if the law in question was constitutional according to the FL constitution but not the US Constitution?
    Here we get into a states rights vs federal rights issue. Whether the states can mandate how and where one can exercise their 2A rights - not if, Heller and McDonald confirmed that.

    Some of these questions will be resolved by now pending cases before SCOTUS, but I don't see "reasonable" restrictions being struck down. That is the real question/challenge you are presenting is it not?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Here we get into a states rights vs federal rights issue. Whether the states can mandate how and where one can exercise their 2A rights - not if, Heller and McDonald confirmed that.

    Some of these questions will be resolved by now pending cases before SCOTUS, but I don't see "reasonable" restrictions being struck down. That is the real question/challenge you are presenting is it not?
    Well, yeah. I don't think I need to make the argument against so called 'reasonable restrictions' here, so I won't.

    However, it seems to me that if a state copies an amendment from the BoR that includes "shall not be infringed" then that state should not be allowed to put an "except" in there if not provided for in the US Constitution.

  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sultan62 View Post
    Well, yeah. I don't think I need to make the argument against so called 'reasonable restrictions' here, so I won't.

    However, it seems to me that if a state copies an amendment from the BoR that includes "shall not be infringed" then that state should not be allowed to put an "except" in there if not provided for in the US Constitution.
    Reasonable restrictions is just another way of saying gun control - I understand.

    Virginia's Constitution considerably predates the federal which borrowed heavily from it. Should the federal therefore be restricted to the verbiage of Virginia's?
    http://legis.state.va.us/laws/search/constitution.htm
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-21-2010 at 08:46 AM. Reason: corrected
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    I wasn't basing it off of when it was written or where it was originally found-the US Constitution is supposed to be the supreme law of the land. Just as one state cannot decide to nullify the fourth amendment and completely bypass the need for warrants or the fifth amendment to require one to testify against oneself, it cannot (legally) provide 'exceptions' to a given right.

  10. #10
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    I've lived in NC/SC my entire life, but I'm liking the sound of VA more and more, and I'll graduate in December and be looking for a job.

    Anyone need someone for an Emergency Management Department up there?

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sultan62 View Post
    I wasn't basing it off of when it was written or where it was originally found-the US Constitution is supposed to be the supreme law of the land. Just as one state cannot decide to nullify the fourth amendment and completely bypass the need for warrants or the fifth amendment to require one to testify against oneself, it cannot (legally) provide 'exceptions' to a given right.
    Nullify and completely bypass are both extreme and total in their concept - not what we are talking about here.

    I would argue that indeed the 4th and 5th Amendments have also had exceptions applied to them. Little is so finite that a dozen people will see it the same way consistently; hence we have interpretations, exceptions and opinions. Our job is to see to it that these hold close to the original intent.

    Insofar as the whether the states have the right derived from the Constitution to deviate from the express wording and application of the BoR, I submit that in some cases they do. I do not necessarily agree with that, but until SCOTUS says differently it is the law of the land.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  12. #12
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    I hate to go back to something so basic and widespread, but "shall not be infringed" seems pretty clear cut to me.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sultan62 View Post
    I hate to go back to something so basic and widespread, but "shall not be infringed" seems pretty clear cut to me.
    So also would I agree, but I am not a Supreme Court Justice either.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Link here listing all states with or without provision within individual state Constitution allowing citizens to bear arms, in some cases subject to regulations by Police (Illinois) or legislature (Texas, Florida, etc). Note most anti gun states have NO state provision for right to bear arms.......

    http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/beararms/statecon.htm

  15. #15
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    'Except' is contradictory to 'Shall not'. The use of the word 'Shall' is absolute.

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    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Cool

    thanks guys for the input, but my statement was sort of "sarcastic" or "rhetorical". my point was basically- if they trust me to conceal carry, which requires much more responsibility in my opinion than open carry, then why not allow open carry? I'm responsible enough to "hide" it from everyone else, and i'm doing a darn good job at it, then why not trust me with carrying on my hip with a tank top on?
    Last edited by hammer6; 10-22-2010 at 04:40 PM. Reason: spelling

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