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Thread: Gun Free School Zone

  1. #1
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    Gun Free School Zone

    Ive used the search and found a few things, but no definitive answers. Is it legal to say, drive down a road with a school on it, less than a thousand feet from the street? This picture makes me very nervous.



    So, does anyone have an answer? Or is this one of those, "well its kinda up to interpretation" things?

    Andy

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I've never, ever heard of an AZ cop even contemplating the enforcement of this bogus law. I've also OC'd past literally tens of thousands of students getting out of or going into k-12 schools in Arizona, well within those boundaries. Dozens of cops watched me do it, none looked twice.

    The new constitutional carry laws may make it officially legal by some means by state law in some way saying everyone is licensed, and it may not. I haven't been there since 08, so I don't know for sure. But I do know I wouldn't concern myself with it. Arizona has a long and proud history of disregarding that trash law.

    Furthermore, there have only been a handful of people prosecuted under that law, and it has always been as a secondary offense. I would never suggest OCing near a school to make a point, but when it needs to be done in passing, I wouldn't suggest worrying about it in Arizona. Any other state, I'd probably suggest added caution.
    Last edited by Michigander; 10-23-2010 at 02:20 PM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member TOF's Avatar
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    You should be OK in Arizona but don't get caught in California.
    IANAL
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    Thank you!

    Thank you very much, great info and advice. I assumed that this was never really enforced. On my route to work I pass through 5 school zones, at least, and my work is only 12 miles away, haha.

    Andy

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    Regular Member oldbanger's Avatar
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    Arizona State law prohibits the carrying of firearms in certain areas. These prohibited areas include:.....

    * School grounds. However, this does not apply to:

    * College/University Campuses, provided that if any agent of the college (campus police, specific building security, faculty, or any other employee) makes a request for you to disarm or leave the campus due to campus policy OR if there are signs posted forbidding firearms on campus, you promptly comply. Failure to do so will result in trespassing which is then punishable by law.
    * Firearms possessed for the purposes of preparing for, conducting or participating in hunter or firearm safety courses.
    * Firearms for use on the school grounds in a program approved by the school.
    * Unloaded firearms carried inside a means of transportation and under the control of an adult, provided that if the adult leaves the means of transportation, it is locked and the firearms are not visible from the outside.
    * A peace officer or any person summoned by any peace officer to assist and while actually assisting in the performance of official duties.
    * A member of the military forces of the United States or of any state of the United States in the performance of official duties.
    * A warden, deputy warden, community correctional officer, detention officer, special investigator or correctional officer of the state department of corrections or the department of juvenile corrections.
    * A person specifically licensed, authorized or permitted pursuant to an Arizona or federal statute.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law...ate%29#Arizona

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    Regular Member rickc1962's Avatar
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    I have driven my Grandchilden to school meny times, I always open carry, a teacher opens car doors and I know she has seen my firearm at different times and has never said anythang
    Last edited by rickc1962; 11-16-2010 at 06:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickc1962 View Post
    I have driven my Grandchilden to school meny times, I always open carry, a teacher opens car doors and I know she has seen my firearm at different times and has never said anythang
    As with your restaurant experience, you would do well to pay closer attention to the laws. You may have gotten away with some things but that doesn't mean you will in the future.

    Stay safe but out of jail.
    If you woke up breathing, congratulations! You get another chance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    I've never, ever heard of an AZ cop even contemplating the enforcement of this bogus law.
    Can a local cop enforce a federal law?

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    mrjam2jab:

    That is an excellent Question.

    I wouls assume the Answer is no, unless; such Authority has been Invested onto the Local Authorities themselves. An example of this would be: 287(g) Enforcement Provisions, under The 287(g) Program, for Local Authorities to Enforce Federal Immigration Laws.
    Otherwise, more likely than not, the answer would be NO.

    aadvark

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    AzCDL is looking into some possible state legislative remedies that will address the federal issue for non permit holders.

    Stay tuned,
    Fred

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    CCW holders are exempt. Unloaded and "locked" in the car or a carrying case, for that matter, are also exempt. AZ law, with constitutional carry, may well exempt everyone in the state under the letter of the law as written. This is never enforced in Colorado passing by a school zone, although state law deals with on school property. It was never enforced in NH or VA either when I lived there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    AzCDL is looking into some possible state legislative remedies that will address the federal issue for non permit holders.

    Stay tuned,
    Fred
    Don't go the Montana route, where all residents are considered licensed in a blanket manner.

    Some licenses in some states have been rejected in court because the state didn't conduct an individual background check before handing out the license. Doing things Montana style doesn't conduct a background check on anybody, and courts have already decided that no background check = no exemption.

    Many forget that the GFSZ law also forbids ANY discharge of a firearm within the zone and THERE IS NO EXEMPTION FOR PERMIT HOLDERS, only security personnel and peace officers IN PERFORMANCE OF DUTY. So while having a permit, or somehow else being allowed to carry in the zone if you have to actually use the weapon you're in violation. Even an off-duty cop firing in self-defense could get hooked up for this.

    Doing the blanket licensure thing will not hold up on federal court nor will it address the potential of being prosecuted for discharging the legally possessed firearm in self-defense.

    Here's how I'd completely neuter the law from the state level:
    -Make it a state felony for any state or federal law enforcement officer to go within 1000 feet of a school while performing official duties if the officer intends to enforce the GFSZ law.
    -Automatically disbar any prosecutor attempting to prosecute violation of GFSZ.
    -State in state law that public k-12 schools are not considered schools for the purposes of the GFSZ law or any other federal weapons law.
    -Consider any person in the State of Arizona who legally has in their possession a deadly weapon a peace officer performing official crime prevention duties.
    -Add 'attempting to enforce or prosecute Federal Gun Free Schools Act or any similar act' to the list of crimes citizens can use deadly force to prevent (ARS 13-411)
    -Make it a state crime to investigate the death of any law enforcement officer or prosecutor who at the time of their death was enforcing or prosecuting the GFSZ law.

    I know my list is extreme, but I'm sure you could pull some good ideas from it
    Last edited by DustoneGT; 11-17-2010 at 04:30 PM.

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    Regular Member rickc1962's Avatar
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    When I was in high school in the 70`s in northern cal. it was not at all uncommen to have 2 or 3 pickups in the parking lot with rifles or shotguns in the back wendow, nobody cared and no mass shootings, what hapened sense then! Az. is on it`s way to a good start, but WE gun owners need to keep up the pressure to reclaming not are Constitutional rights, BUT are God given rights protected by the Constitution

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    Quote Originally Posted by DustoneGT View Post

    Many forget that the GFSZ law also forbids ANY discharge of a firearm within the zone and THERE IS NO EXEMPTION FOR PERMIT HOLDERS, only security personnel and peace officers IN PERFORMANCE OF DUTY. So while having a permit, or somehow else being allowed to carry in the zone if you have to actually use the weapon you're in violation. Even an off-duty cop firing in self-defense could get hooked up for this.

    Correct...no exemption for permit holders...but a little more than just LEO...

    (3)(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), it shall be
    unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for
    the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a
    firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or
    foreign commerce at a place that the person knows is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the discharge of a firearm
    -
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) as part of a program approved by a school in the school
    zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;
    (iii) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered
    into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an
    employer of the individual; or
    (iv) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official
    capacity.

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    Regular Member mFonz77's Avatar
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    So here is a question...

    U of A in Tucson has those pesky signs posted all around the perimeter (This is a gun free campus blah blah), but if I elect to carry concealed anyway the worse that can happen is trespassing? Is that a midemeanor or civil infraction? (IE what are the repercussions with respect to continuing to own/carry firearms)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mFonz77 View Post
    So here is a question...

    U of A in Tucson has those pesky signs posted all around the perimeter (This is a gun free campus blah blah), but if I elect to carry concealed anyway the worse that can happen is trespassing? Is that a midemeanor or civil infraction? (IE what are the repercussions with respect to continuing to own/carry firearms)
    There is no AZ law that says you can't carry on a college campus. It's the same as any store or other private property that prohibits carry. Yup, worst that can happen is trespassing charge AND they will more than likely expel you for breaking the rules.

    Concealed means concealed If, God forbid, you have to actually use the gun, getting tried for trespassing and kicked out of school is far better than being dead. Plus those charges are probably going to be the least of your legal troubles. Remember anybody can sue anybody for anything at any time.

    Disclaimer: I don't recommend breaking the law. I'm just giving you the facts as I know them for your own cost-benefit analysis. You're an adult and must make your own decisions.

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    Carry a black powder cap and ball pistol. They are not defined as firearms in federal code.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwikrnu View Post
    Carry a black powder cap and ball pistol. They are not defined as firearms in federal code.
    +2 Robin47

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwikrnu View Post
    Carry a black powder cap and ball pistol. They are not defined as firearms in federal code.
    Thanks for the lame suggestion but we'll handle it our way out here thru the AZCDL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GWbiker View Post
    Thanks for the lame suggestion but we'll handle it our way out here thru the AZCDL.
    The "lame" suggestion is the only legal way I know of for someone to walk in a school zone with a loaded weapon RIGHT NOW. Let's see how long it takes for the azcdl to come up with a plan and implement it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwikrnu View Post
    The "lame" suggestion is the only legal way I know of for someone to walk in a school zone with a loaded weapon RIGHT NOW. Let's see how long it takes for the azcdl to come up with a plan and implement it.
    Implement what plan? You don't know what you're talking about. This is Arizona subforum, not Tennessee where YOU had Police crawling up YOUR a$$.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GWbiker View Post
    Implement what plan? You don't know what you're talking about. This is Arizona subforum, not Tennessee where YOU had Police crawling up YOUR a$$.
    The federal law won't disappear overnight. It is against forum rules to break a law. The only way for an unlicensed person to carry within a school zone is with a non-firearm like a cap and ball revolver. There are some exceptions, but they are not many.

    So, how will the azcdl let the unlicensed carry today, tomorrow, or next week?

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    Regular Member TOF's Avatar
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    The Feds don't allow Federal Law to be enforced in Arizona (re. our illegal immigration fiasco).

    Neither Arizona or the Feds have paid much attention to the gun free zone law listed in the OP's posting during the 70 years I have lived here.

    AZCDL and our legislators have been doing a real good job of clarifying and restoring our gun RIGHTS and I expect when appropriate will address the ridiculous gun free school zone question. At the moment it is not a real problem IMHO.

    Kalifornia, Tennesee and other locals may not fare quite as well.
    If you woke up breathing, congratulations! You get another chance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwikrnu View Post
    So, how will the azcdl let the unlicensed carry today, tomorrow, or next week?
    I'm confused by the message. AzCDL doesn't "let" people carry. We have no power or authority in that regard. We're a grassoroots group that lobbies for improvements in Arizona law.

    School zone carry is a priority. We are working with legislators on getting this addressed in the upcoming session.

    Stay tuned,
    Fred

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    Quote Originally Posted by GWbiker View Post
    Thanks for the lame suggestion but we'll handle it our way out here thru the AZCDL.
    Quote Originally Posted by TOF View Post
    The Feds don't allow Federal Law to be enforced in Arizona (re. our illegal immigration fiasco).

    Neither Arizona or the Feds have paid much attention to the gun free zone law listed in the OP's posting during the 70 years I have lived here.

    AZCDL and our legislators have been doing a real good job of clarifying and restoring our gun RIGHTS and I expect when appropriate will address the ridiculous gun free school zone question. At the moment it is not a real problem IMHO.

    Kalifornia, Tennesee and other locals may not fare quite as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    I'm confused by the message. AzCDL doesn't "let" people carry. We have no power or authority in that regard. We're a grassoroots group that lobbies for improvements in Arizona law.

    School zone carry is a priority. We are working with legislators on getting this addressed in the upcoming session.

    Stay tuned,
    Fred
    I'm sure you're aware that people have been prosecuted for carry within a GFSZ. The AZCDL has no power to prohibit law enforcement from enforcing the current law which prohibits the carry of a firearm inside a GFSZ. They may be working on a lawsuit, I don't know. However, in the mean time how may a person w/o a permit carry a weapon for self-defense within a GFSZ? I recomend the carry of a black powder cap and ball pistol. They are not defined as a firearm under Federal law. As long as AZ doesn't have a State law prohibiting the carry of a cap and ball pistol in a GFSZ you should be okay.

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