OC (or concealed w/o ccw) Cap n Ball revolver?

brboyer said:

Open Carry is Legal, but you will end up in jail until they figure it out.

The fact that a firearm is an antique firearm is an affirmative defense to the charge of carrying a concealed firearm. This means proof of it's 'antiqueness' would have to be provided to the court.

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I believe you are mistaken about the 'affirmative defense' status of Antique Firearms with regard to 790.053.

790.053

Open carrying of weapons.
—
(1) Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device.

(2) A person may openly carry, for purposes of lawful self-defense:
(a) A self-defense chemical spray.
(b) A nonlethal stun gun or dart-firing stun gun or other nonlethal electric weapon or device that is designed solely for defensive purposes.

(3) Any person violating this section commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

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It has already been established in the first post that according to Fla statutes:

790.001 Definitions.--

As used in this chapter, except where the context otherwise requires:

(6) "Firearm" means any weapon (including a starter gun) which will, is designed to, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; any destructive device; or any machine gun. The term "firearm" does not include an antique firearm unless the antique firearm is used in the commission of a crime.

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NOTE, that 790.001 establishes a SPECIFIC circumstance in which an Antique Firearm is considered to BE a Firearm. Your claim that a specific exeption must be written into 790.25 for Antique Firearms is a red herring. Unless I'm mistaken Fla operates on the English Common Law model in which that which is not specifically prohibited, is lawful.

To sum up:

OC of a 'Firearm' is generally prohibited by Fla Statute (790.053)

Exceptions to this general prohibition are listed in the statutes as well (790.25)

The term 'Firearm' is SPECIFICALLY defined FOR THIS SECTION in yet another Fla Statute (790.001)

For the purposes of this section of Fla Statutes, an Antique Firearm is expressly and specifically NOT equated to a Firearm.

ERGO, since FLa Statute 790.053 DOES NOT specifically include Antique Firearms in it's text, said statute DOES NOT APPLY to these items.

Period. Full stop. End of story.

Phssthpok said:

I believe you are mistaken about the 'affirmative defense' status of Antique Firearms with regard to 790.053.


It has already been established in the first post that according to Fla statutes:



NOTE, that 790.001 establishes a SPECIFIC circumstance in which an Antique Firearm is considered to BE a Firearm. Your claim that a specific exeption must be written into 790.25 for Antique Firearms is a red herring. Unless I'm mistaken Fla operates on the English Common Law model in which that which is not specifically prohibited, is lawful.

To sum up:

OC of a 'Firearm' is generally prohibited by Fla Statute (790.053)

Exceptions to this general prohibition are listed in the statutes as well (790.25)

The term 'Firearm' is SPECIFICALLY defined FOR THIS SECTION in yet another Fla Statute (790.001)

For the purposes of this section of Fla Statutes, an Antique Firearm is expressly and specifically NOT equated to a Firearm.

ERGO, since FLa Statute 790.053 DOES NOT specifically include Antique Firearms in it's text, said statute DOES NOT APPLY to these items.

Period. Full stop. End of story.

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I believe you are mistaken about the 'affirmative defense' status of Antique Firearms with regard to 790.053.

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I'm not.

Five minutes researching case law will establish that I am correct, as always.

In Florida v. Thompson, the Florida Supreme Court ruled:

We hold, therefore, that whether a proscribed weapon is an antique is a matter of defense; the state is not required to prove the negative as an element of the offense.

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I hate to restart an old thread, but if someone decides that they want to be a test case, they might as well do it with an indisputable antique such as a flint lock.

I would bet the OCer with the cap and ball would get arrested. No matter what the statute says it boils down to the courts, and how the judge and jury interpret the laws. Unless one has deep pockets it is not wise to become a test case. And that is the OP's reasoning for not getting a concealed permit.

If anyone else is considering this they should at least contact the Florida Attorney General for advice on paper. Then take that advice to a gun rights advocacy group and see if they will file on it and get a decision that would possibly restore OC. It might not be the best but cap and ball is reliable man stopper if the owner is willing to spend some money on a gunsmith and learning how to load and shoot them.

brboyer said:

You sound like a TROLL with those comments.

You should really look at the Florida laws before making statements not based in fact!

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Trolls comments?

I am jobless, I do not have a job, I get $0 a month, NO unemployment, Therefore, I can not afford a CCW, which means i am banned from carrying a gun because i am poor, That is raciest, It MY RIGHT! Taking that alway because i am poor? that is RACISM!

I back his statement,

lowlux said:

Trolls comments?

I am jobless, I do not have a job, I get $0 a month, NO unemployment, Therefore, I can not afford a CCW, which means i am banned from carrying a gun because i am poor, That is raciest, It MY RIGHT! Taking that alway because i am poor? that is RACISM!

I back his statement,

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How do you pay for internet then?

Internet is free.

People still pay for Internet?

Much as I hate to add to a long-dead (and silly) post.., I cant resist this bit..

"That is raciest, It MY RIGHT! Taking that alway because i am poor? that is RACISM!"

How, exactly, is one's financial situation, real or otherwise, fall into one's "race"? There are folks of all races/ethnic types that are financially down.
How would anyone here know what race anyone is?


Get over the silly, tired, and long-since played-out "race" crutch, already.

brboyer said:

Open Carry is Legal, but you will end up in jail until they figure it out.

The fact that a firearm is an antique firearm is an affirmative defense to the charge of carrying a concealed firearm. This means proof of it's 'antiqueness' would have to be provided to the court.

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LOL :lol:
We have basically the same thing in Texas and I put a lot of study to it. Cap & Ball is not a firearm, but its still a deadly weapon.
Texas firearms laws are preemption of law, but the "antique" is not a firearm and is subject to minicipality ordinances.
If open carried in Texas, they will arrest you for Disorderly Conduct.
Sec. 42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:
(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;

Refer to your penal code for laws like this, but also remember that concealing a antique is not displaying a deadly weapon.

Man I just read this entire thread and got sick.
I want one of yall to remind me what money has to do with your Constitutional Rights.
The original topic was in reference to laws restricting a cap and ball antique. We all understand the lack of knowledge LEO's have on this subject and I can tell you it aint limited to Florida.
I see this to be a perfect time to organize some Antique Open Carry events in your communities. If your city ordinances dont restrict it, then go for it. The more people the better.
I like reading the subjects from other state simply because it helps me with issues in my own. When yall start bashing a man with ideas and questions, it wast time and effort.
I dont see the OP as a troll, a little misinformed but not a troll.
BTW OP,Texas has very few limited places that restrict Licensed Carry. Our penal code even has exemptions to UCW for traveling, but as mentioned LEO's might not know it. I cant answer you florida questions but I can give you reference to look for.

I also want to give a thumbs up once more for the new law in Florida that fines Municipal government who screw with Florida firearms laws. " Yall cant emagine how funny this is to me". LOL:lol::banana:

concerning cap and ball pistols, there is no law concerning them. they are under the same guidelines as a bb gun. i have been checking and reading through case law. there is no real case law concerning this. the 2 supreme court cases do not delve too much into this (actually i believe they were federal appeals court cases. the point i was making is that there are some cases, but in the cases i read the guns were fitted with "modern" implements that made them not "antique" in their orientation. there are no laws concerning these only because by federal guidelines they are not considered 'firearms'.

I have open carried my pistol a couple times (like going to the gun shop, or when transporting it) and have not had any problems as of yet. i have not talked with any officers about it yet either, so like previous posts state, it IS at the officers discretion. it is always their discretion whether or not they think you are committing a crime. misinformed police officers may detain you until they can affirm that what you are doing is legal. i try to keep mine in the glovebox for the most part, and will probably keep doing so until i am proven otherwise that i cant. i choose to open carry it when I am going somewhere to shoot because it isnt worth it to me to carry any weapon concealed without a CCW permit.

this IS something i plan on talking to my local law enforcement about. I'm not in any way giving advice to anyone else. this is through my personal understanding of our current laws in place, and i know that (as long as you arent involved in any sort of criminal activity) it is legal and safe (safety is questionable. anything that draws attention from police isnt the safest thing). dont just take someones word for it, do your own research. i am a local business owner, and i have 2 children. i choose to exercise my right to bear arms only because the police are not with me 24-7 and i dont carry a cell phone. (since cell phones came out they since removed just about every single coin operated one).. i dont open carry to the grocery store or to sporting events, but in my car, or to places im travelling with my family. it is an excellent self defence weapon, and i would recommend it. it's a lot of fun to shoot, and once you learn to take care of it it can be just as reliable as a cartridge gun.

i believe i would like to actually see more people carrying antique arms exempt from the guidelines, but at the same time it may bring attention to it and create more restrictions on these particular guns and pistols. at the same time more citizens should exercise these rights. in this day and age i feel it foolish to not have a gun or firearm of some sort. if more people exercised these rights you would see less crime because a man with a family and a gun on his hip is not an easy target for criminals. the current policy on firearms in florida is pretty dumb. you can only carry a firearm concealed with a permit. i think open carry is a much better way. more deterrent for crime with open carry, and more opportunity for deadly results (for the criminals) who try to victimise people who carry and conceal. while i dont disagree with self defence, the anti-gun legislation that could occur if crime rises along with gun-related deaths could be a disaster for everyone's gun rights. i believe that deterring crime is a better method of defence for everyone.

every person should have the right to open carry if they choose to is my stand on it. most of the time i keep it in the car, and carry it only when taking it somewhere. using some sense and being smart about it isnt anything anyone will frown upon.

While I disagree with needing a CC permit , it only costs 17 dollars a year or about 1.40 a month. thats cheap by any standards. also Carrying a cap and Ball pistol might be legal, its just plain stupid. antiques are for recreation and do little in the way of self defense. That to me would be unwanted attention.IMO

DanieltheAnvil said:

While I disagree with needing a CC permit , it only costs 17 dollars a year or about 1.40 a month. thats cheap by any standards. also Carrying a cap and Ball pistol might be legal, its just plain stupid. antiques are for recreation and do little in the way of self defense. That to me would be unwanted attention.IMO

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A cap and ball revolver like a Remington 1858 is just as quick and deadly as a modern single action revolver, which many people still carry for self-defense. I don't understand therefore, how one could say it does little in the way of self-defense. I'd rather have a double action revolver than a single action one, but a single action revolver is still a lot better than a pointy stick. The Florida permit may only average out to $17 per year, but when combined with the fact that you need 20 other concealed carry permits to carry in every state, it all adds up. I've got NV and UT, and I still can't carry in FL.

While I get that "any gun is better than no gun", I still don't see the logic in carrying a Cap and Ball pistol. When I'm in a tough situation, I want the quickest, least confusing and most accurate gun I can possibly have at my disposable. I would also like to have access to more then 6 rounds without a 3 minutes break between reloads. Maybe I'm missing something here, if I am I'd love the education, but a cap and ball CC or OC does not make sense to me. That being said I'm PRO GUN in every form and my opinion really has nothing to do with the original conversation.

DanieltheAnvil said:

I would also like to have access to more then 6 rounds without a 3 minutes break between reloads.

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Wear one on each hip. Now you have 12 shots before you reload. It is a lot of fun practicing your off-hand shooting too.

Really? No kidding? Someone wants to argue that a cap and ball revolver is not deadly..How many people were killed by them in the
1800s? A .44 cal hole is a .44cal hole. They are less prone to over penetration, and with very slight mods to the lead ball, they can be made for decent, but not great expansion.
As to the OP, and legailities, the laws are there, and support your wish to carry the old pistol, but how many young cops know what they are. In a holster, they look like a cartridge handgun...

My .02, take it for what it's worth...

DanieltheAnvil said:

While I get that "any gun is better than no gun", I still don't see the logic in carrying a Cap and Ball pistol. When I'm in a tough situation, I want the quickest, least confusing and most accurate gun I can possibly have at my disposable. I would also like to have access to more then 6 rounds without a 3 minutes break between reloads.

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And I'd like a hot ham sandwich served to me by a bikini-clad female...as my dad used to say, "wish in one hand and s*** in the other and see which one fills up first."

If I were in the position of having to choose between being unarmed and carrying an antique revolver, I'd take the latter every time. You would, too, if your life were threatened.

I actually did this a few years ago. I carried my Remington 1858 in my cowboy rig. No law against it. Around 40 or so cops saw me. I had a few drinks, walked around and nothing happened. Well almost nothing, two cops tried to cuff me.
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We were invited to a city police and fire department Halloween party and I dressed up like a cowboy. No caps, balls, or powder were carried, just the spare cylinder. Had a great time. The only downside I encountered is that it gets in the way a bit with some of our modern forms of dance. :monkey
The two cops that tried to cuff me were two scantily clad hotties. My wife was not amused.

Mas49.56 said:

I actually did this a few years ago. I carried my Remington 1858 in my cowboy rig.

The two cops that tried to cuff me were two scantily clad hotties. My wife was not amused.

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Oh yeah. That's just great!!

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