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Thread: so is this false bravado, or standing up for myself?

  1. #1
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    so is this false bravado, or standing up for myself?

    For the past 2.5 hours, some jerks around the corner have been booming their "music".
    It was loud enough from 100yds away that I had to turn up my TV volume, & was
    wondering about earplugs & sleeping pills for tonight.

    Finally screwed up my courage (I'm really not a confrontational person), put on shoes,
    & walked over there to ask them _politely_ to turn it down.

    "Hi guys, it's getting late & you've been having this turned up loud for a couple hours now.
    Would you please turn it down?" Amazingly enough, they did!
    I told them I thought I should ask politely before calling police. (Not that police are likely
    to come by before the boomers get tired of it and shut down for the morning.)

    Then after I said thank you and started to walk away, the guy who turned down the radio
    said, "you didn't have to come over here with a gun, you could have just asked."

    I didn't say anything, but I figure it's a good rep to have in this neighborhood. 'Sides, I
    didn't touch it or say anything about it. It was just there, as always. Three on one, I like
    having a little help hanging around Just In Case.

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Glad the situation didn't have to escalate to police being called.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  3. #3
    Regular Member bluehighways's Avatar
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    You did the right thing. Going armed was the responsible course of action to take with regard to your personal safety and your rights. Anything less on your behalf would have been foolish. You might have walked into a very bad situation. You did those people a favor by asking them to turn down the tunes instead of just calling the cops. If they don't like you taking responsibility for your personal protection, too bad for them.

    Another thing to consider: Had you walked over there unarmed and alone, would the people you encountered have been so willing to oblige in a civil manner?

  4. #4
    Regular Member TyGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluehighways View Post
    You did the right thing. Going armed was the responsible course of action to take with regard to your personal safety and your rights. Anything less on your behalf would have been foolish. You might have walked into a very bad situation. You did those people a favor by asking them to turn down the tunes instead of just calling the cops. If they don't like you taking responsibility for your personal protection, too bad for them.

    Another thing to consider: Had you walked over there unarmed and alone, would the people you encountered have been so willing to oblige in a civil manner?
    An armed society.....

    Good job!

  5. #5
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Amazing how easy it is to correct behavior....

  6. #6
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    It wasn't as if you ran up and drew a bead on the guy, you just politely asked him to respect and consider another persons peace and quiet. Nothing intimidating or false bravado there.

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    "Walk softly, carry a big stick"

    Or, as Theodore Roosevelt said, "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far"
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Miller, "Theodore Roosevelt, A Life"
    Looking back upon his handling of the incident, Roosevelt thought he 'never saw a bluff carried more resolutely through to the final limit.' And writing to a friend a few days later, he observed: 'I have always been fond of the West African proverb: "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."

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    Two thumbs up MKEgal. I wager you would not have had the same response had you been concealed carry.

  9. #9
    Regular Member anmut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    For the past 2.5 hours, some jerks around the corner have been booming their "music".
    It was loud enough from 100yds away that I had to turn up my TV volume, & was
    wondering about earplugs & sleeping pills for tonight.

    Finally screwed up my courage (I'm really not a confrontational person), put on shoes,
    & walked over there to ask them _politely_ to turn it down.

    "Hi guys, it's getting late & you've been having this turned up loud for a couple hours now.
    Would you please turn it down?" Amazingly enough, they did!
    I told them I thought I should ask politely before calling police. (Not that police are likely
    to come by before the boomers get tired of it and shut down for the morning.)

    Then after I said thank you and started to walk away, the guy who turned down the radio
    said, "you didn't have to come over here with a gun, you could have just asked."

    I didn't say anything, but I figure it's a good rep to have in this neighborhood. 'Sides, I
    didn't touch it or say anything about it. It was just there, as always. Three on one, I like
    having a little help hanging around Just In Case.
    Right on.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Krusty's Avatar
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    I myself am a pretty mild and laid back person. I don't think I would have been quite so cordial when I talked to them. I guess the one with the big mouth just hasn't had time to grow up and realize that other people live in this world too.
    IF YOU WANT TO BURN OUR AMERICAN FLAG, PLEASE WRAP YOURSELF UP IN IT FIRST...

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    I probably would have tried to talk to them personally first, as you did. And carrying to talk to them I don't think was out of line at all, given what you've described of your general area in the past. Plus, it's your right and it's what you do, you don't need to not carry just to make someone else feel more at ease.

    Nice work!

  12. #12
    McX
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    silent moderator at your side makes for pleasant encounters!

  13. #13
    Regular Member Hunting Mama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    silent moderator at your side makes for pleasant encounters!
    Nicely put!

    Great handling of the situation too.

  14. #14
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Thanks for the responses & thoughtful comments.
    And I made a bit of a mistake last night - they're more like 60 yards away.
    Funny thing is, if I could have held out another 30min, they packed it up for the night anyway - rain moving in.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluehighways
    Had you walked over there unarmed and alone, would the people you encountered have been so willing to oblige in a civil manner?
    I really doubt it. They all had beer bottles in their hands, too.
    I've noticed that people are much more likely to be at least as polite to me as I am to them when I'm armed.
    :hmmmm:
    [removed gratuitious jab at a few police officers]

    In the past, I haven't gone over to talk with them, for fear the group of guys would be less than cooperative, possibly violently so. In fact, this same "neighbor" frequently does this, often in the summer, so now I think I'll be a bit more forward about asking him to turn down the noise... er, "music". As long as I can't hear it I really don't care what they listen to.

    Odd thing is, I was wearing jeans & a dark olive long-sleeve shirt, the gun & holster are black, & it was dark except for the street light on the corner. Yet their little brains were still able to pick up on the fact that I was carrying.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 10-25-2010 at 12:17 AM.

  15. #15
    Regular Member 1FASTC4's Avatar
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    Well, I think you can expect more trouble. They are probably going to be/get angry that you entered their private property while OC'ing. I know I would be. I think it was a foolish thing for you to do. What if they were armed and saw you coming; an armed stranger walking onto their property? You are lucky you didn't find yourself staring down the barrel of a gun.. or several.
    I'm a bit bemused that so many show the bad judgement to agree with your foolish actions.



    You admit you are afraid of them yet you've never spoken to them before....

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1FASTC4 View Post
    Well, I think you can expect more trouble. They are probably going to be/get angry that you entered their private property while OC'ing. I know I would be. I think it was a foolish thing for you to do. What if they were armed and saw you coming; an armed stranger walking onto their property? You are lucky you didn't find yourself staring down the barrel of a gun.. or several.
    I'm a bit bemused that so many show the bad judgement to agree with your foolish actions.



    You admit you are afraid of them yet you've never spoken to them before....
    I see no foolish actions here. She open carrys everywhere else she goes so why should she change her behavior now?
    I think she did well.
    why would we now start telling people not to OC because it might upset someone?
    No Way! Carry On!

  17. #17
    Regular Member 1FASTC4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Gleason View Post
    I see no foolish actions here. She open carrys everywhere else she goes so why should she change her behavior now?
    I think she did well.
    why would we now start telling people not to OC because it might upset someone?
    No Way! Carry On!
    Well I'm not trying to change your mind.

    For my part, we are talking about someone's domicile here. It's a bit different than OC'ing around town. Once the OP stepped onto the property while thusly armed, and didn't ID herself as a police officer, she became lucky she didn't encounter people prepared to defend their home against an armed stranger.

    Opinions were asked for, I gave mine.

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    Too Fast To See stretches 'defense', to the point of offensiveness.

    60 yards being nearly 200 feet reminds me of Charleston's (South Carolina) nuisance noise control law, that it not be audible from 200 feet away. I lived on the seventeenth floor of the ONLY building higher than St. Marks' steeple, making the entire city more than 200 feet away. When I heard noisy 'music' or motors then I regularly reminded the city cops of the stupid ordinance unenforced.

  19. #19
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    "Well, I think you can expect more trouble."
    And when they get the noise going again, I'll ask them politely to turn it down again.

    "They are probably going to be/get angry that you entered their private property while OC'ing."
    I didn't make the picture clear enough. They were standing around their car (windows open, hood up, radio blaring), which was in a very short driveway (barely longer than the car), then there's a sidewalk, then the slope to the street. I didn't go past the sidewalk.

    "I think it was a foolish thing for you to do."
    Thanks for your opinion.
    You would suggest that I don't approach them again, simply call police?
    (Which doesn't solve the problem. I've never had police respond before the 'party' was over, sometimes several hours after I got fed up with the noise & called them.)

    "You are lucky you didn't find yourself staring down the barrel of a gun.. or several."
    That could have been a possibility. This isn't the inner city, but isn't a very nice neighborhood, either. (As evidenced by neighbors like these.) Looks like a pretty decent place, for being in the city of Milwaukee, but for the most part the people aren't.

    "You admit you are afraid of them yet you've never spoken to them before"
    I haven't gone to speak with them before, no, and yes, it's because I was concerned for my safety - one of me, many of them, and having your rudeness pointed out tends to make people less than pleasant to deal with.

    That's part of why I asked the original question - I did something out of character because I felt safe enough to do it because I was carrying. Most people (most of the ones who've posted here have interacted with me online or in person) seem to think it wasn't out of line to talk with them, even though I wouldn't have done it unarmed.

  20. #20
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Pay no attention to the Nay Sayers, you did fine. As usual, the critics got it wrong.

  21. #21
    Regular Member 1FASTC4's Avatar
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    MKE,

    I can say I gave you my opinion without bias. I think the people being critical of me and saying things like I"got it wrong" have a pro OC agenda and were not looking at the scenario objectively.

    Let me preface by saying I am Pro- constitution all the way, and am no different about the second amendment. I believe in the right, your right, to arm yourself as you deem necessary to feel capable of defending yourself and others. Also, I am glad you did not take my critical view as a personal attack. Points for you!

    To the point.

    Let us consider some of the possible outcomes to the scenario:

    One outcome is the one you mentioned. Perhaps one of the only good outcomes.

    There seems to be lots of bad ones possible.
    A: They see an armed stranger approaching them and they arm themselves as well.
    What if the encounter actually ended in a gun fight? Even if they initiate the gunfight, you are in a tight spot.. legally speaking. You may have been within your legal rights to carrry your weapon, but the DA's office is going to consider that YOU initiated contact and that you were armed. If there were no witnesses readily available you would, assuming you survive, be faced with their story against yours. Obviously they are not going to admit they started the gunfight... and it's back to the fact that you initiated contact. Some who like to argue may say something like "there is nothing illegal about initiating contact." They're right, but a DA's office is going to consider that you approached these people at night, on their property, wearing dark clothes, and armed. The other party's story won't be that you nicely came up and politley asked them to turn down the music. They are going to say you came up yelling and screaming... maybe brandishing. Even if you don't get convicted, going through the legal process is a big PITA.

    B: They see a darkly dressed stranger approaching, in the dark while armed, and they call the police.
    Sure you haven't broken any laws, but has this stopped MKE and other WI departments from affecting a DO arrest?
    What if the other party says you came onto their property and refused to leave? You have already admitted being there, and it's going to be their(the victims') story against yours. A bad spot to be in....trespassing while armed. Yep, you'll probably beat it(but maybe not. innocent people DO get convicted), but you may have to go through some legal process and it's a PITA. You may not get your gun back for quite a while. When it does come back, it may be in a plastic bag and covered with tons of fingerprint powder, inside and out.(Trust me on this one)

    C: They see the gun and get defensive, tell you to go pound sand. Then you are left with alienated neighbors who may be the type to do something about it.. slash tires, rocks through windows... take your pick of several annoying harrassments.

    D: Instead of just some inconsiderate dudes hanging around, they are genuine thugs. Sounds like you were fairly close to them... at the sidewalk of a very short driveway. Could you have drawn, acquired a sight picture and fired if they unexpectedly moved against you? You don't really know. Neither do I, to be honest. It would suck to find out, either way.

    Ultimately, I feel that there are too many possible bad outcomes over such a small thing as loud music. I say small compared to... life and limb.

    "I wager you would not have had the same response had you been concealed carry."
    This translates to: You intimidated them into turning down their music.
    Is that the person you want to be? Just about all of us have played their music too loudly at one point or other in our lives. Just about all of us turned it down without the intimidation of a gun. Most of us apologized to the unarmed person and then we turned our music down.

    Since you were scared, and since there were many possible bad outcomes, I think the prudent thing to do would be to let the cops handle it. You can even tell the cops "Hey, I don't want to make trouble for anyone, I just want them to turn their music down."
    Last edited by 1FASTC4; 10-25-2010 at 08:35 PM.

  22. #22
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    Yes, it was false bravado.

    If you have to ask..you know the rest.

  23. #23
    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quite frankly, I don't think the presence of the gun even entered their minuscule brains. What defused the situation was two related elements; MKEgal was polite and she gave off an aura of self-confidence.

    1. I have found, over many years, that the old saying about honey attracting more flies than vinegar has a lot of truth to it. People will usually, and I stress usually, respond much better to polite requests than they will to brusque orders.

    2. I have also found, over those same years, that giving off that aura of self-confidence seems to have the effect of "He/she must know what he/she is talking about, so I think I will comply with their request."

    That she went over there armed contributed greatly to the air of self-confidence and was, under the circumstances and in her neighborhood, a prudent thing to do.

    Calling the police over loud music, raucous parties, etc., is always, with me, a last resort.

  24. #24
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    The road to Hell is paved with what-ifs.

    You did fine. You did fine given your knowledge, tools and fortitude.

  25. #25
    Regular Member 1FASTC4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Quite frankly, I don't think the presence of the gun even entered their minuscule brains.
    "you didn't have to come over here with a gun, you could have just asked."
    Have you never played your music too loudly?

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