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Thread: Second Degree Murder for self-defense (or defense of another)?

  1. #1
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Second Degree Murder for self-defense (or defense of another)?

    Something seems to be missing from the newspaper reports, as nearly all the article commenters have observed as well.

    Large party runs late into the night. Hosts (husband and wife) argue and fight. Guest attempts to intervene, husband retrieves gun, close quarters struggle for gun, two shots fired, husband dies.

    Intervening guest charged with Second Degree Murder.

    Facts as reported attributed directly to the Sheriff's Department spokesman. Sounds pretty stinky to me.

    TFred

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Ah, the comments to the article reveal more details... the "suspect" is the brother of the wife, who was allegedly being threatened by the deceased. Another comment questions the name of the victim as being part of the reason why the severe charges... Jett... also the name of Stafford Sheriff Charles E. Jett. Related? Who knows.

    I wonder if we have another Gerald Ung-type case going on here?

    TFred

  3. #3
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    More info released today. Sounds like it was a disaster waiting to happen. No good outcome from this mess.

    http://fredericksburg.com/News/Web/2...hooting-arrest

    TFred

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Angry

    The responses look like they were cut-n-pasted right out of the Brady Center propaganda manual.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Yes, it sounds like a real mess. I don't envy the investigators trying to piece this all together. I do hope justice is served rightly.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    The responses look like they were cut-n-pasted right out of the Brady Center propaganda manual.
    Any idea if that thong was OC or CC?

  7. #7
    Regular Member COMMANDER1911's Avatar
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    Not to make light of the incident, but I want to know why in the hell would they sieze a thong???

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by COMMANDER1911 View Post
    Not to make light of the incident, but I want to know why in the hell would they sieze a thong???
    I'm going to guess there is a question of infidelity that may or may not be related to the argument and/or the shooting.

    The child neglect charges are the real deal-breaker - they are there to make her cop to the lesser charges. Because right now the drugs and fighting at 1:30 AM are not going to cover the elements of the crime of child neglect.

    As for the 2nd-degree murder charge? Hubby & shooter were previously involved in mutual combat. When hubby left the room the combat ended. When he came back with the gun the other guy did not fear imminent death or great bodily injury but re-engaged in mutual combat for control of the gun. While struggling for control of the gun hubby got shot. Or so I'm guessing the deputies have proposed the scenario and the placing of charges.

    As for what else/other Toler should have done, other than run for his life, I have no idea. It's still not clear if hubby brought the gun to shoot Toler or to shoot his wife.

    stay safe.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    As for the 2nd-degree murder charge? Hubby & shooter were previously involved in mutual combat. When hubby left the room the combat ended. When he came back with the gun the other guy did not fear imminent death or great bodily injury but re-engaged in mutual combat for control of the gun. While struggling for control of the gun hubby got shot. Or so I'm guessing the deputies have proposed the scenario and the placing of charges.
    Much left to be sorted out here, but your description seems to be slightly off from the newspaper article.

    Hubby and wife were fighting. Hubby left room to retrieve gun. Hubby returned to room with gun. Hubby and shooter struggled, hubby shot.

    Second newspaper article reveals that shooter and wife are siblings. If my sister and her husband were in a major fight, and hubby left and returned with a gun, you better believe I'd be in fear of death or great bodily injury for either myself, my sister, or both of us.

    I'm not sure how you can think a man who was just in a fight, returning to the room with a gun would not cause fear. Was shooter supposed to just let the guy take his time to aim and shoot his sister? Was he supposed to flee the room to leave his sister at hubby's mercy?

    TFred

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    TFred,

    I'm just throwing a theory out there, based on experience and contact with the cops in Spotsylvania. Never said it was a description of the actual facts & circumstances of the case.

    The point being, even when you think you are in the moral right you can find your rearmost extremity in a sling. It really sucks, though, when that happens because some cop feels the need to place a charge right here, right now.

    stay safe.

  11. #11
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    "Charlene G. Jett, who will turn 27 Saturday, is charged with four counts of felony child neglect and one count of providing false information to a crime investigator."

    Also says in an article that the weapon has not been located yet. I wonder if these charges are pressure tactics to get the wife to disclose whereabouts of the firearm? The false information could have been in regards to anything; drugs, money, who was present, who said what, etc. You have an investigation involving some people who are trying to avoid charges unrelated to the shooting, such as possession. There may be some statements from witnesses that don't jive, based on this alone.

    I'd hate to find that the police put those kids through more than what fate put on their plates already. I am curious as to why the kids were not placed with other family, rather than placed into foster care. Shock factor on the mother comes to mind.

    I'm real interested to find out what the wife [Charlene] had for legal representation when the "false information" was obtained.

  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I'm starting to wonder if he was really shot, or maybe he was hit by shrapnel. They don't have a gun but do have a thong.

    WARNING: YOUR THONG IS A DANGEROUS WEAPON


    Marcia Patterson, is claiming she was injured by her thong.
    She is suing Victoria’s Secret, claiming that a “design problem” caused a decorative metallic piece on the underwear to fly up and hit her in the eye while she was putting the underwear on
    .

    Could the husband have actually been hit by friendly fire?

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I am curious as to why the kids were not placed with other family, rather than placed into foster care. Shock factor on the mother comes to mind.
    As one who has placed kids in emergency custody at zero-dark thirty following a homicide, it is a lot easier on the worker and prevents family factions from fighting over who gets the kids until the following court hearing. Also, iirc the Sheriff is kin to the kids and that may not be the best political move at the moment on the part of DSS or the Sheriff or any other kin.

    There's an awful lot to speculate on, and it's probably going to take quite a while for only some of it to come out.

    stay safe.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Could the husband have actually been hit by friendly fire?
    Please join me in urging our representatives to close the thong loophole immediately. Think of the children!

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    Regular Member kennys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by architect View Post
    Please join me in urging our representatives to close the thong loophole immediately. Think of the children!
    I can see it now, cc of thong with permit only, other wise oc manditory... I wonder if they are going to allow them in restaurants that serve ABC..
    Last edited by kennys; 10-28-2010 at 02:11 PM.

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