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Thread: Cities Weigh Letting Noncitizens Vote. crAP via FoxNews.com

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    Cities Weigh Letting Noncitizens Vote. crAP via FoxNews.com

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...citizens-vote/
    "We have immigrants who are playing key roles in different issues of this country, but they don't get the right to vote," said Rwaganje, 40, who moved to the U.S. because of political strife in his native Congo and runs a nonprofit that offers financial advice to immigrants.
    Yep, "playing key roles" in illegal immigration's quiet invasion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...citizens-vote/
    Yep, "playing key roles" in illegal immigration's quiet invasion.
    What does this have to do with illegal immigrants? Historically, many non-citizens could vote up until the great depression. This appears to be targeting those who are tax-paying, legal members of a community that wish to have a say in where their money goes. What's wrong with that?
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member Coded-Dude's Avatar
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    yep...after reading the article it strictly deals with LEGAL immigrants who are not (yet) citizens. I personally have no problem with letting legal immigrants vote on local issues(like who's on their children's school board, city taxes, other municipal laws, etc).
    If guns cause crime.....mine must be defective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    What does this have to do with illegal immigrants? Historically, many non-citizens could vote up until the great depression. This appears to be targeting those who are tax-paying, legal members of a community that wish to have a say in where their money goes. What's wrong with that?
    What's wrong with that is that they are not citizens! Just another way to walk all over the Constitution and disregard it. Do you seriously think any of us would be allowed to vote in another country's election because we had lived there for a few years and were active politically?!?

    We have people in powerful positions in our current administration that want to adopt UN small arms treaty and make our 2A rights null and void. All these things nibble away at the Constitution and our rights till there's nothing left to fight with or for. Do you know what a slap in the face our Constitution and our rights are to the people at the UN? I have a friend who visited the UN building once. He said one of their main goals posted on a wall in the building is to disarm the world. There are countries who hate us because of the freedom we have; they want to see us brought in line with them. It's not just the guns we have, it's the RIGHT to have them and the freedom that right represents. So they pick something that sounds reasonable, like the above. If we let non citizens vote how does that make our votes, as citizens, worth anything? This is how we lose our freedom, liberties, and rights, little by little, bit by bit. Why should they even bother to become citizens if they can vote and participate in the political process without having to be a citizen?!? If you dilute it like that, what is it worth, what does it mean? I believe our Founding Fathers set up the requirements for citizenship and its rights because they wanted people to care about this country and invest themselves in it. We already know that there are people here who have no interest in this country except to take what they can get from it for nothing. Please tell me of another country where people can come in legally or illegally and be allowed to vote and be given rights the same as citizens right off the bat. I really would like to know if there is one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coded-Dude View Post
    yep...after reading the article it strictly deals with LEGAL immigrants who are not (yet) citizens. I personally have no problem with letting legal immigrants vote on local issues(like who's on their children's school board, city taxes, other municipal laws, etc).
    I do, as they're not citizens. I've lived abroad, and was I given an opportunity to participate in local voting? Heck no! Why not? Because I was not a citizen.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    What's wrong with that is that they are not citizens! Just another way to walk all over the Constitution and disregard it. Do you seriously think any of us would be allowed to vote in another country's election because we had lived there for a few years and were active politically?!?
    Riiiight...

    Care to cite where in the Constitution it says only citizens may vote? Voting is set by the laws of the state. If you read the article, you would see that from the 1770s through the 1920s, non-citizens were allowed to participate in the vote.

    It's always been up to the states to decide: "The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Place of Chusing Senators."
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    I do, as they're not citizens. I've lived abroad, and was I given an opportunity to participate in local voting? Heck no! Why not? Because I was not a citizen.
    They also banned possession of firearms. Doesn't make either right.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member Coded-Dude's Avatar
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    I think the issue here is municipal voting. I don't quite think they're letting or planning on letting non-citizens vote for president, etc. But if you've been in the states as a legal immigrant for 5-10+ years, why not have the right to decide who is on your child's school board or what local city ordinances matter?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coded-Dude View Post
    I think the issue here is municipal voting. I don't quite think they're letting or planning on letting non-citizens vote for president, etc. But if you've been in the states as a legal immigrant for 5-10+ years, why not have the right to decide who is on your child's school board or what local city ordinances matter?
    And it's just another step closer to voting in state elections, then national elections. If you have been in the country legally for 5-10 years, you have been here long enough to become a citizen. So become one then vote! Earlier this year the adminstration or Congress one was going to introduce a bill that would allow all these Mexicans coming into our country to vote. Don't know what the final outcome of that was. And you know of course who they will vote for: the people and adminstration who allowed them to come into the country in the first place! I am totally against allowing non citizens to vote. See my post above if you don't understand why.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


    Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,

    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

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    I understand your position, but do respectfully think it is a bit unfounded. One could make the same argument for guns. Allowing open carry or concealed carry is one step in the direction of everyone running around with assault rifles bloodying up the streets due to road rage.

    I think your issue is more with the politicians who would try and allow illegals rights(or illegals who abuse the system), rather than considering the rights of legal immigrants.

    Its a scare tactic to diminish the rights of those that are here legally(paying taxes, raising families, and obeying laws). Just because someone lives here for 5-10 years doesn't mean they want to become a citizen. Maybe they plan on going back home after they finish their schooling or work. Does that mean while they are here legally, they have no right to their voices being heard on the municipal level(school board elections, park rules and regulations, animal control issues, city taxes, etc.)? This is the real debate, and to try and bring illegals voting into the argument is reckless. Just like the example above. Why not outlaw all guns, since criminals will abuse them?

    We are not talking about illegals or criminals here....we are talking about LEGAL immigrants who pay taxes and abide by laws.

    I am completely against allowing non-citizens the right to vote in state and federal elections.
    I am also against allowing illegal immigrants the right to vote period....they are not legal, so its a moot point.
    If guns cause crime.....mine must be defective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    And it's just another step closer to voting in state elections, then national elections. If you have been in the country legally for 5-10 years, you have been here long enough to become a citizen. So become one then vote! Earlier this year the adminstration or Congress one was going to introduce a bill that would allow all these Mexicans coming into our country to vote. Don't know what the final outcome of that was. And you know of course who they will vote for: the people and adminstration who allowed them to come into the country in the first place! I am totally against allowing non citizens to vote. See my post above if you don't understand why.
    What about those who come from countries where, if they became US citizens, they could not keep their other citizenship, and as a result could not visit their family? Do you have a source for your claims? I mean, "were going to introduce a bill" is even lower of a bar than "omg there's this bill that..."

    Question: if someone is a long-time, permanent resident here, but for some reason has not or cannot become a resident, why should they be barred from voting? Under what constitutional basis would you deny people who live here and are under the jurisdiction of laws here the right to vote? Pointing out that another country doesn't allow long-time or permanent residents to vote is not justification for our policy. Just as two wrongs don't make a right (but if they did, six of them would make a left!), two bad policies don't make a good policy.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    As an immigrant, and now a citizen, I see no problem in allowing anyone on the path to citizenship the ability to vote. If you don't want to get on the path, you don't want to vote very badly. It's not particularly difficult to become a citizen, so there really is nothing stopping anyone wanting to jump into the melting pot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buster81 View Post
    As an immigrant, and now a citizen, I see no problem in allowing anyone on the path to citizenship the ability to vote. If you don't want to get on the path, you don't want to vote very badly. It's not particularly difficult to become a citizen, so there really is nothing stopping anyone wanting to jump into the melting pot.
    Immigrant from where? Please see earlier example about countries that don't allow dual citizenship and restrict US travel.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Irrelevant.

    As I said, get on the path or don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    And it's just another step closer to voting in state elections, then national elections. If you have been in the country legally for 5-10 years, you have been here long enough to become a citizen. So become one then vote!
    +1E9

    Earlier this year the adminstration or Congress one was going to introduce a bill that would allow all these Mexicans coming into our country to vote. Don't know what the final outcome of that was. And you know of course who they will vote for: the people and adminstration who allowed them to come into the country in the first place!
    Exactly - anything and everything that will allow for a quick fix for them, but at the expense of our nation's wealth which I and the other citizens who've been here for 47 years and more, have spent the better part of our lives building through very hard-earned tax dollars.

    Only to have that turned into the care and feeding of recently arrived free-loaders?

    Citizenship carries with it both privilages as well as responsibilities/duties. These folks want the privilages (immediate access to free healthcare) without the responsibilities/duties (having paid taxes for 30+ years).

    NO.

    I am totally against allowing non citizens to vote. See my post above if you don't understand why.
    I'm totally with you, Ruby. Carry on.

    Quote Originally Posted by buster81 View Post
    As an immigrant, and now a citizen...
    Congratulations, and welcome to the republic.

    ...I see no problem in allowing anyone on the path to citizenship the ability to vote.
    Only after they complete the citizen process, right?

    If you don't want to get on the path, you don't want to vote very badly. It's not particularly difficult to become a citizen, so there really is nothing stopping anyone wanting to jump into the melting pot.
    I agree, but privilages and responsibilities of citizenship go hand in hand. You can't take the brass ring until you've ridden the pony. I didn't get my wings until after I went through flight school, but couldn't go to flight school until I got the sheepskin. And I didn't get the sheepskin until after I finished every last course credit to the university's satisfaction. At that I wasn't allowed entrance into college until I'd successfully graduated high school, passed the SAT with good marks, and stayed out of trouble in school!

    One does not pay workers before they've put in a full day's (or month's) work. You punch your time card on time for two weeks and only then will they cut you a check.

    America is the land of opportunity! Not the land of freebies. We, as do all good, healthy societies, require people do their duty as citizens before earning the privilages enjoyed as a result thereof. The duties are simple and unburdensom, but they begin with being (or becoming) a citizen.

    I'll go one further, to say this includes any health care given without payment. If you're not a citizen and you're treated, then you're detained until either you, someone you know, or your country of origin pays your bill. If that doesn't happen in, say, 90 days, you're deported.

    I'm sorry, but we're the land of Opportunity, not the land of freebies, and if you can't pay your bill, I, the taxpayer, have to foot your bill!
    Last edited by since9; 10-27-2010 at 03:17 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    *snip*

    I'm sorry, but we're the land of Opportunity, not the land of freebies, and if you can't pay your bill, I, the taxpayer, have to foot your bill!
    What does any of this have to do with the situation presented? It's a group of people who are here legally, working, paying taxes, etc. They are, for all intents and purposes, members and citizens of their local communities and the US community at large. Yet, they cannot vote.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Quote Originally Posted by buster81 View Post
    Irrelevant.

    As I said, get on the path or don't.
    Hardly irrelevant, as where you're from alters the process and availability of citizenship, as well as the reprecussions of getting citizenship.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    Hardly irrelevant, as where you're from alters the process and availability of citizenship, as well as the reprecussions of getting citizenship.
    Provide a citation for the first part, and the second is the problem of the individual. Life is full of tough choices. One of them is to get on the path, or not.
    Last edited by buster81; 10-27-2010 at 03:10 PM.

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    Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy. Not every country will allow people the right to dual citizenship. Someone comes here to work or attend school, and then plans on going back home. They live here(temporarily), pay taxes, abide by ALL local, state, and federal laws.....I just don't see how allowing legal residents the right to weigh in on local issues is a big deal. I personally don't have a problem with it.
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    Voting is not a right. It is a privilege of citizenship. Unfortunately, we have thrown about the phrase, "right to vote," so much that folks think it is a right that everyone should enjoy.

    We are a Republic that operates under the rule of law. Under those rules, we elect the representatives whose existence earn us the title, "Republic." These rules, determined by our Constitution and the laws passed by our republican representatives determine how the election process occurs and who has the privilege to vote.

    I personally do not want my vote diluted by non-citizens being allowed to vote. If one wants to vote, he should enter the country lawfully and earn the privileges of citizenship by going through the process.

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    "Non-citizens" encompasses two main sub categories: illegal residents and legal residents. I don't think anyone here thinks or believes that an illegal immigrant should have a "right to vote," or a right to anything for that matter! So when someone mentions people coming here unlawfully, its diverting the discussion to illegal residents.

    As stated above; legal residents(non-citizens) have had the "right to vote" in the past. This is nothing new to our society or republic.

    My position is that legal residents should at MOST have the right to vote on MUNICIPAL issues(city/county ordinances/laws).

    Why shouldn't a legal resident of the United States NOT have a right to weigh in on issues that are specific to the community they legally reside in(e.g. local traffic laws, school board issues, city taxes, park rules and regulations, etc.)? They are not deciding our next president or diluting national or state issues. These people are obeying our laws, they are also paying us taxes, what is it that they are doing illegally that would inhibit them from voting on local issues?

    The tone in this thread makes me think some of you believe residents of our country(both legal and illegal) should have no rights whatsoever. The latter is obviously justified, but what about the former?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    If you have been in the country legally for 5-10 years, you have been here long enough to become a citizen. So become one then vote! .
    Any one here have a foreign born spouse?

    Say your spouse says to you, I want to go back to my country and live awhile, take care of my parents, retire.

    Say you both went, how soon would you an American become a citizen of that country, 5 years?

    Say you're single and got a job offer to move to a foreign country, fell in love and married, bought a house, had kids, how soon?

    How would you feel on the Forth of July? Would you care how your spouse felt?
    Last edited by oldbanger; 10-27-2010 at 07:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldbanger View Post
    Any one here have a foreign born spouse?
    Naturalized X-OL Chaguaramas, Trinidad

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    Taxation without representation.

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    Allowing non-citizens to vote in ANY election is the first step down the slippery slope. Think about how we got were we are now with our gun laws.

    Remember the old saying, "how do you eat an elephant? one bite at a time." And that is how we lost so much ground in our 2nd Amendment rights and that is how we will lose more rights by allowing non-citizens to vote.

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