Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 49

Thread: DNR Warden PC or RAS?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Birdhunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    31

    DNR Warden PC or RAS?

    I've recieved second hand information that wardens at Bong Recreation Area are frisking individuals who are pheasant hunting to determine if they have untagged birds on their person. My question is whether or not the wardens need PC or RAS to frisk or pat down an individual? This would be related to open carry since one would be open carrying a shotgun while hunting.

    Will the experts on the forum provide guidance?

  2. #2
    Regular Member anmut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Stevens Point WI, ,
    Posts
    879
    Quote Originally Posted by Birdhunter View Post
    I've recieved second hand information that wardens at Bong Recreation Area are frisking individuals who are pheasant hunting to determine if they have untagged birds on their person. My question is whether or not the wardens need PC or RAS to frisk or pat down an individual? This would be related to open carry since one would be open carrying a shotgun while hunting.

    Will the experts on the forum provide guidance?
    I've heard through second hand knowledge that the DNR doesn't need a warrant to enter property. So I'll throw that question out there too.

  3. #3
    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    High altitude of Vernon County, ,
    Posts
    1,025
    I have a third question. Does the DNR need PC to check your ID when you are hunting, or is the act of hunting enough?
    "To sin by silence, when we should protest makes cowards out of men."
    Ella Wheeler Cox


    We must contact our lawmakers today, tomorrow and the next day to remind them of Constitutional Carry.
    Laws are not written because of the actions of many, they are wrtiten because of the inactions of many.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The Northwoods, lakeland area, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,170
    Since you must purchase a license, I believe that hunting is a state regulated privilege in WI.

    Frisking people? That is stepping over the line IMO. I would look at Terry V. Ohio for your answer to that.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,029
    I can find no exemption to the state trespass laws (ch.943 subchapter II) for game wardens. As far as I can determine they can not enter private land without permission. The trespass laws are not enforced by the DNR they are enforced only by county law enforcement. From what I can determine game wardens must be respectful of a person's fourth amendment rights and cannot enter a residence without strong reasonable cause or a warrant. I don't believe the DNR's rule making authority allows it to make rules that are contrary to federal and state laws. This is my opinion if I am in error please cite published state information that is contrary.

    The above is not to say that wardens don't capitalize on the general publics lack of knowledge of law and rely on hearsay and reputation to accomplish their deeds.

    In regards to bag checks and license checks: Art I section 26 of the state constitution gives we citizens the right to fish, hunt and trap. However it also contains the phrase "subject to reasonable regulations" I would suspect that because the charter of the DNR is to be stewards of the state's plant and wildlife that it would be hard to convince a court that verification that a person is authorized to hunt and has not exceeded the game possession limit are not reasonable. My opinion.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    North Central Wisconsin, ,
    Posts
    768
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    I can find no exemption to the state trespass laws (ch.943 subchapter II) for game wardens. As far as I can determine they can not enter private land without permission. The trespass laws are not enforced by the DNR they are enforced only by county law enforcement. From what I can determine game wardens must be respectful of a person's fourth amendment rights and cannot enter a residence without strong reasonable cause or a warrant. I don't believe the DNR's rule making authority allows it to make rules that are contrary to federal and state laws. This is my opinion if I am in error please cite published state information that is contrary.

    The above is not to say that wardens don't capitalize on the general publics lack of knowledge of law and rely on hearsay and reputation to accomplish their deeds.

    In regards to bag checks and license checks: Art I section 26 of the state constitution gives we citizens the right to fish, hunt and trap. However it also contains the phrase "subject to reasonable regulations" I would suspect that because the charter of the DNR is to be stewards of the state's plant and wildlife that it would be hard to convince a court that verification that a person is authorized to hunt and has not exceeded the game possession limit are not reasonable. My opinion.
    I suggest looking at these

    29.921 Warrants; arrests; police powers.

    29.921(1)
    (1) Generally. The department and its wardens may execute and serve warrants and processes issued under any law enumerated in ss. 23.50 (1), 167.31, 346.19, 940.24, 941.20, 948.60, 948.605 and 948.61 in the same manner as any constable may serve and execute the process; and may arrest, with or without a warrant, any person detected in the actual violation, or whom the officer has probable cause to believe is guilty of a violation of any of the laws cited in this subsection, whether the violation is punishable by criminal penalties or by forfeiture, and may take the person before any court in the county where the offense was committed and make a proper complaint. For the purpose of enforcing any of the laws cited in this subsection, any officer may stop and board any boat and stop any vehicle, if the officer reasonably suspects there is a violation of those sections.
    29.931(1)
    (1) Seizure and confiscation of wild animals or plants. The department and its wardens shall seize and confiscate any wild animal, carcass or plant caught, killed, taken, had in possession or under control, sold or transported in violation of any of the laws for which the department and its wardens have enforcement authority under s. 29.921. The officer also may, with or without warrant, open, enter and examine all buildings, camps, boats on inland or outlying waters, vehicles, valises, packages and other places where the officer has probable cause to believe that wild animals, carcasses or plants that are taken or held in violation of any of these laws are to be found.
    29.951 Resisting a warden. Any person who assaults or otherwise resists or obstructs any warden in the performance of duty shall be subject to the penalty specified in s. 939.51 (3) (a).
    DNR Wardens are one step below archangels. I am still looking for the statute that gives them the "power" to enter private property if they have some idea of a game or fish violation
    Last edited by phred; 10-25-2010 at 11:26 PM.

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,185
    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post
    I am still looking for the statute that gives them the "power" to enter private property if they have some idea of a game or fish violation
    You already did in the second half of 29.931(1)

    "29.931(1)
    (1) Seizure and confiscation of wild animals or plants. The department and its wardens shall seize and confiscate any wild animal, carcass or plant caught, killed, taken, had in possession or under control, sold or transported in violation of any of the laws for which the department and its wardens have enforcement authority under s. 29.921. The officer also may, with or without warrant, open, enter and examine all buildings, camps, boats on inland or outlying waters, vehicles, valises, packages and other places where the officer has probable cause to believe that wild animals, carcasses or plants that are taken or held in violation of any of these laws are to be found.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,029
    Whoa!!! Thanks for the info. Very sneaky and smaking of gestapo tactics for the DNR to list some of it's arrest authority under 29.931(1) instead of under 29.921 where it belongs. No doubt inserted in 29.931 for selfish department motives. I suppose the DNR will use the phrase "in other places" as appears in 29.931(1) to exempt it from the trespass statute. There is no question in my mind that statute 29.931(1) is in violation of amendments 4 and 14 of the U.S. constitution. I will be taking that battle up with the Wisconsin Conservation Congress and the Natural Resources Board. Although the specific issue of Warden powers is not an open carry issue per se I urge all of those that are hunters, as I am, to voice their concern to their legislators. And the police state of Wisconsin goes on and on.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    , , Kernersville NC
    Posts
    783
    As an avid hunter, Im pretty sure that game wardens have more authority than LEO. They can go wherever they want and ask whomever about whatever. Just my 2 cents.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    , Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,140
    The DNR should have no arrest or citation authority except that directly connected with enforcement of game laws.
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Canard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    SE, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    148
    Based on the language quotes above it seems that they can only check you or your property if they have reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing. How is it that they can check your license without said suspicion? Nothing above suggests that they can enter private property to harass the law abiding.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    , Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,140
    Here are the local "citizen" Conservation Congress reps for each county.

    http://dnr.wi.gov/org/nrboard/congre...0%20Roster.pdf

    The way it works is explained here:

    http://dnr.wi.gov/org/nrboard/congress/members/local/
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,818

    Probable Cause

    By reading the statutes, it seems to me that the Wardens have the same burden as a LEO. LEO's can search without a warrent given probable cause as well.

    I don't see where they have any more power than a typical LEO concerning 4A rights. It seems to me that since people think they can do what they want, they get away with it.

    The definition of probable cause doesn't change because they are DNR; I would deal with them, the same way as any other LEO.
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Lex malla, lex nulla

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,643

    Exclamation If The Statute Violates The Constitution It Isn't Legal

    It appears obvious that whomever wrote these statutes either did not know of the limitations placed on government by the Constitution(s) or did so knowing that the statutes are unconstitutional. To have a statute that gives unlimited power to DNR wardens to enter homes, vehicles, etc at will reeks of Nazi Germany and the Gestapo. These statutes are unconstitutional, thus illegal. I cannot see any court in the nation upholding these statutes that violate the Constitution(s).

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    North Central Wisconsin, ,
    Posts
    768
    IMMHO, I would think that a DNR Warden would need to have some reasonable suspicion that something illegal was going on. For example, I don't think a warden would be driving down the road as think "that's a nice 40, I'm going to take a walk in there to see if anybody is baiting deer." However, if a warden sees a person haul sacks of corn into a 40, he would probably go and check it out. (assuming baiting is illegal in that county.) If he had some evidence (or maybe a complaint) that something was amiss, investigation is valid, at least that's how I read the statutes. On public land, the warden IS the caretaker and will investigate anything.

    Since hunting is a privilege and requires a license, a warden has the power to check for your license. What I am not sure of is when a warden sees a hunter 300 yds away on private property, would he think that he can get out of his vehicle, walk across your land, and check your license or your gun, or whatever. (Assuming of course that the warden has the ambition to do that.) If he saw you on the road or near your car, he might stop and check.

    I don't think a warden could go looking for a problem, but would certainly investigate a problem or potential problem.

    Of course, this is my opinion. Take it for what it is worth. (ya, I know, not much)

  16. #16
    Guest
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Green Bay
    Posts
    232
    hunting is a right guaranteed in our state constitution.

  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,818
    Is everyone just skimming over the "probable cause" part in the statutes????
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Lex malla, lex nulla

  18. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    9,193
    PC/RAS are not subject to your agreement.

  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    SE, WI
    Posts
    7,322
    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post
    IMMHO, I would think that a DNR Warden would need to have some reasonable suspicion that something illegal was going on. For example, I don't think a warden would be driving down the road as think "that's a nice 40, I'm going to take a walk in there to see if anybody is baiting deer." However, if a warden sees a person haul sacks of corn into a 40, he would probably go and check it out. (assuming baiting is illegal in that county.) If he had some evidence (or maybe a complaint) that something was amiss, investigation is valid, at least that's how I read the statutes. On public land, the warden IS the caretaker and will investigate anything.

    Since hunting is a privilege and requires a license, a warden has the power to check for your license. What I am not sure of is when a warden sees a hunter 300 yds away on private property, would he think that he can get out of his vehicle, walk across your land, and check your license or your gun, or whatever. (Assuming of course that the warden has the ambition to do that.) If he saw you on the road or near your car, he might stop and check.

    I don't think a warden could go looking for a problem, but would certainly investigate a problem or potential problem.

    Of course, this is my opinion. Take it for what it is worth. (ya, I know, not much)
    The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose.

    I'm not so sure hunting is a privilege, but I have been mistaken before...
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  20. #20
    Guest
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Green Bay
    Posts
    232
    Joe, you are forgetting about Article 1, Section 26

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,818
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    PC/RAS are not subject to your agreement.
    Neither are they if any LEO claims them against me. My point is that a DNR warden is no different than any other LEO.
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Lex malla, lex nulla

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    SE, WI
    Posts
    7,322
    Quote Originally Posted by Springfielddx40 View Post
    Joe, you are forgetting about Article 1, Section 26
    Perhaps I should have kept reading eh? lol

    I don't like this part though, "subject only to reasonable restrictions." WTF is reasonable?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  23. #23
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    9,193
    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Perhaps I should have kept reading eh? I don't like this part though, "subject only to reasonable restrictions." WTF is reasonable?[DH emphasis]
    In the mind of the regime, the Ruling Class to use Codevilla's terms, and not necessarily reasonable in the mind of the Country Class US.

  24. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,185
    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Perhaps I should have kept reading eh? lol

    I don't like this part though, "subject only to reasonable restrictions." WTF is reasonable?
    Its what our elected representatives have passed into law. Any law that is deemed to be unreasonable can be challenged such as the GFSZ challenge that WCI has pending now.

  25. #25
    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    High altitude of Vernon County, ,
    Posts
    1,025
    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post
    Since hunting is a privilege and requires a license, a warden has the power to check for your license.
    This is where my question comes in. Is hunting alone a qualified reason to be checked? LEO can not check our license just because they saw us driving a car.
    "To sin by silence, when we should protest makes cowards out of men."
    Ella Wheeler Cox


    We must contact our lawmakers today, tomorrow and the next day to remind them of Constitutional Carry.
    Laws are not written because of the actions of many, they are wrtiten because of the inactions of many.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •