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DNR Warden PC or RAS?

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Birdhunter

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I've recieved second hand information that wardens at Bong Recreation Area are frisking individuals who are pheasant hunting to determine if they have untagged birds on their person. My question is whether or not the wardens need PC or RAS to frisk or pat down an individual? This would be related to open carry since one would be open carrying a shotgun while hunting.

Will the experts on the forum provide guidance?
 
anmut

anmut

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Birdhunter said:
I've recieved second hand information that wardens at Bong Recreation Area are frisking individuals who are pheasant hunting to determine if they have untagged birds on their person. My question is whether or not the wardens need PC or RAS to frisk or pat down an individual? This would be related to open carry since one would be open carrying a shotgun while hunting.

Will the experts on the forum provide guidance?
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I've heard through second hand knowledge that the DNR doesn't need a warrant to enter property. So I'll throw that question out there too.
 
C

Captain Nemo

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I can find no exemption to the state trespass laws (ch.943 subchapter II) for game wardens. As far as I can determine they can not enter private land without permission. The trespass laws are not enforced by the DNR they are enforced only by county law enforcement. From what I can determine game wardens must be respectful of a person's fourth amendment rights and cannot enter a residence without strong reasonable cause or a warrant. I don't believe the DNR's rule making authority allows it to make rules that are contrary to federal and state laws. This is my opinion if I am in error please cite published state information that is contrary.

The above is not to say that wardens don't capitalize on the general publics lack of knowledge of law and rely on hearsay and reputation to accomplish their deeds.

In regards to bag checks and license checks: Art I section 26 of the state constitution gives we citizens the right to fish, hunt and trap. However it also contains the phrase "subject to reasonable regulations" I would suspect that because the charter of the DNR is to be stewards of the state's plant and wildlife that it would be hard to convince a court that verification that a person is authorized to hunt and has not exceeded the game possession limit are not reasonable. My opinion.
 
P

phred

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Captain Nemo said:
I can find no exemption to the state trespass laws (ch.943 subchapter II) for game wardens. As far as I can determine they can not enter private land without permission. The trespass laws are not enforced by the DNR they are enforced only by county law enforcement. From what I can determine game wardens must be respectful of a person's fourth amendment rights and cannot enter a residence without strong reasonable cause or a warrant. I don't believe the DNR's rule making authority allows it to make rules that are contrary to federal and state laws. This is my opinion if I am in error please cite published state information that is contrary.

The above is not to say that wardens don't capitalize on the general publics lack of knowledge of law and rely on hearsay and reputation to accomplish their deeds.

In regards to bag checks and license checks: Art I section 26 of the state constitution gives we citizens the right to fish, hunt and trap. However it also contains the phrase "subject to reasonable regulations" I would suspect that because the charter of the DNR is to be stewards of the state's plant and wildlife that it would be hard to convince a court that verification that a person is authorized to hunt and has not exceeded the game possession limit are not reasonable. My opinion.
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I suggest looking at these

29.921 Warrants; arrests; police powers.

29.921(1)
(1) Generally. The department and its wardens may execute and serve warrants and processes issued under any law enumerated in ss. 23.50 (1), 167.31, 346.19, 940.24, 941.20, 948.60, 948.605 and 948.61 in the same manner as any constable may serve and execute the process; and may arrest, with or without a warrant, any person detected in the actual violation, or whom the officer has probable cause to believe is guilty of a violation of any of the laws cited in this subsection, whether the violation is punishable by criminal penalties or by forfeiture, and may take the person before any court in the county where the offense was committed and make a proper complaint. For the purpose of enforcing any of the laws cited in this subsection, any officer may stop and board any boat and stop any vehicle, if the officer reasonably suspects there is a violation of those sections.
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29.931(1)
(1) Seizure and confiscation of wild animals or plants. The department and its wardens shall seize and confiscate any wild animal, carcass or plant caught, killed, taken, had in possession or under control, sold or transported in violation of any of the laws for which the department and its wardens have enforcement authority under s. 29.921. The officer also may, with or without warrant, open, enter and examine all buildings, camps, boats on inland or outlying waters, vehicles, valises, packages and other places where the officer has probable cause to believe that wild animals, carcasses or plants that are taken or held in violation of any of these laws are to be found.
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29.951 Resisting a warden. Any person who assaults or otherwise resists or obstructs any warden in the performance of duty shall be subject to the penalty specified in s. 939.51 (3) (a).
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DNR Wardens are one step below archangels. I am still looking for the statute that gives them the "power" to enter private property if they have some idea of a game or fish violation
 
Last edited:
Spartacus

Spartacus

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phred said:
I am still looking for the statute that gives them the "power" to enter private property if they have some idea of a game or fish violation
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You already did in the second half of 29.931(1)

"29.931(1)
(1) Seizure and confiscation of wild animals or plants. The department and its wardens shall seize and confiscate any wild animal, carcass or plant caught, killed, taken, had in possession or under control, sold or transported in violation of any of the laws for which the department and its wardens have enforcement authority under s. 29.921. The officer also may, with or without warrant, open, enter and examine all buildings, camps, boats on inland or outlying waters, vehicles, valises, packages and other places where the officer has probable cause to believe that wild animals, carcasses or plants that are taken or held in violation of any of these laws are to be found.
 
C

Captain Nemo

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Whoa!!! Thanks for the info. Very sneaky and smaking of gestapo tactics for the DNR to list some of it's arrest authority under 29.931(1) instead of under 29.921 where it belongs. No doubt inserted in 29.931 for selfish department motives. I suppose the DNR will use the phrase "in other places" as appears in 29.931(1) to exempt it from the trespass statute. There is no question in my mind that statute 29.931(1) is in violation of amendments 4 and 14 of the U.S. constitution. I will be taking that battle up with the Wisconsin Conservation Congress and the Natural Resources Board. Although the specific issue of Warden powers is not an open carry issue per se I urge all of those that are hunters, as I am, to voice their concern to their legislators. And the police state of Wisconsin goes on and on.
 
N

nobama

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As an avid hunter, Im pretty sure that game wardens have more authority than LEO. They can go wherever they want and ask whomever about whatever. Just my 2 cents.
 
Flipper

Flipper

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, Wisconsin, USA
The DNR should have no arrest or citation authority except that directly connected with enforcement of game laws.
 
Canard

Canard

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Based on the language quotes above it seems that they can only check you or your property if they have reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing. How is it that they can check your license without said suspicion? Nothing above suggests that they can enter private property to harass the law abiding.
 
Brass Magnet

Brass Magnet

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Probable Cause

By reading the statutes, it seems to me that the Wardens have the same burden as a LEO. LEO's can search without a warrent given probable cause as well.

I don't see where they have any more power than a typical LEO concerning 4A rights. It seems to me that since people think they can do what they want, they get away with it.

The definition of probable cause doesn't change because they are DNR; I would deal with them, the same way as any other LEO.
 
rcawdor57

rcawdor57

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If The Statute Violates The Constitution It Isn't Legal

It appears obvious that whomever wrote these statutes either did not know of the limitations placed on government by the Constitution(s) or did so knowing that the statutes are unconstitutional. To have a statute that gives unlimited power to DNR wardens to enter homes, vehicles, etc at will reeks of Nazi Germany and the Gestapo. These statutes are unconstitutional, thus illegal. I cannot see any court in the nation upholding these statutes that violate the Constitution(s).
 
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phred

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IMMHO, I would think that a DNR Warden would need to have some reasonable suspicion that something illegal was going on. For example, I don't think a warden would be driving down the road as think "that's a nice 40, I'm going to take a walk in there to see if anybody is baiting deer." However, if a warden sees a person haul sacks of corn into a 40, he would probably go and check it out. (assuming baiting is illegal in that county.) If he had some evidence (or maybe a complaint) that something was amiss, investigation is valid, at least that's how I read the statutes. On public land, the warden IS the caretaker and will investigate anything.

Since hunting is a privilege and requires a license, a warden has the power to check for your license. What I am not sure of is when a warden sees a hunter 300 yds away on private property, would he think that he can get out of his vehicle, walk across your land, and check your license or your gun, or whatever. (Assuming of course that the warden has the ambition to do that.) If he saw you on the road or near your car, he might stop and check.

I don't think a warden could go looking for a problem, but would certainly investigate a problem or potential problem.

Of course, this is my opinion. Take it for what it is worth. (ya, I know, not much)
 
P

protias

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phred said:
IMMHO, I would think that a DNR Warden would need to have some reasonable suspicion that something illegal was going on. For example, I don't think a warden would be driving down the road as think "that's a nice 40, I'm going to take a walk in there to see if anybody is baiting deer." However, if a warden sees a person haul sacks of corn into a 40, he would probably go and check it out. (assuming baiting is illegal in that county.) If he had some evidence (or maybe a complaint) that something was amiss, investigation is valid, at least that's how I read the statutes. On public land, the warden IS the caretaker and will investigate anything.

Since hunting is a privilege and requires a license, a warden has the power to check for your license. What I am not sure of is when a warden sees a hunter 300 yds away on private property, would he think that he can get out of his vehicle, walk across your land, and check your license or your gun, or whatever. (Assuming of course that the warden has the ambition to do that.) If he saw you on the road or near your car, he might stop and check.

I don't think a warden could go looking for a problem, but would certainly investigate a problem or potential problem.

Of course, this is my opinion. Take it for what it is worth. (ya, I know, not much)
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The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose.

I'm not so sure hunting is a privilege, but I have been mistaken before...
 
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