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Thread: Wisconsin Resident with PA permit ?

  1. #1
    bhancock
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    Wisconsin Resident with PA permit ?

    There was some discussion a while back that a resident of another state with a non-resident cc permit from another state would be legal to OC in Michigan. As I read the new proposed MSP update, it appears they have closed the door on that idea? It looks like I could only legally possess a long gun 30 inches or greater in length. Wisconsin has no permit to purchase or possess and does not issue any type of carry permits. Any further insight on this? It looks like any firearm I would bring with me to MI must also be unloaded and cased in the trunk or farthest reach of the passenger compartment. I would appreciate any advice you have for me when I visit Michigan. Coming again in 2 weeks. Thanks.

  2. #2
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    This post should help you, (thanks Michigander)

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1383102
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhancock View Post
    There was some discussion a while back that a resident of another state with a non-resident cc permit from another state would be legal to OC in Michigan. As I read the new proposed MSP update, it appears they have closed the door on that idea? It looks like I could only legally possess a long gun 30 inches or greater in length. Wisconsin has no permit to purchase or possess and does not issue any type of carry permits. Any further insight on this? It looks like any firearm I would bring with me to MI must also be unloaded and cased in the trunk or farthest reach of the passenger compartment. I would appreciate any advice you have for me when I visit Michigan. Coming again in 2 weeks. Thanks.
    You're basicsally screwed! In MI, a Resident of IL has more rights than a WI resident.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    You're welcome.

    Anyway, if you carry here, I suggest a bare minimum of 3 recorders, or at least 2 that you find very reliable with at least one hidden. Also, I suggest not bringing a particularly nice handgun, or at least understanding that it will be at some risk of being stolen by the cops. If possible, having no less than 2 friendly witnesses while carrying would be a good measure, particularly if they might be available to testify.

    If there are 40 cops in this state who understand the dynamics of why the law appears to allow you to OC handguns here, that would be a lot, and if that many exist they are probably mostly lurkers here. Caution and a willingness to fight it out in court or lose a handgun and face other legal issues are my suggestions.

    As far as I know, this is fairly uncharted territory, not at all unlike when we first started urban OCing in 2007, and wondered how the cops would react. So while I am definitely not saying don't carry, I will again emphasize careful consideration and caution, with a decision being balanced on personal safety, convenience and willingness to fight for the cause in a state that needs a lot less help than Wisconsin.

    One last thought. If you decide that you don't want to take the risks associated with carrying a handgun here, I suggest my 50 state carry option, which is ammoniated cleaner, either in a lever actuated pump spray bottle, a sports style water bottle. With a microfiber cloth handy almost no one would question it since it would legitimately work well on windows. Or for good deep concealment, a squeeze type nose spray bottle with the straw pulled out and the nozzle bored out with a heated up needle. It won't freeze, it won't jam, and used properly, it will stop even the highest assailants from still coming at you when their eyes stop working, perhaps permanently. Legal repercussions would likely only be a possible result of defending yourself, and at that point you wouldn't care. (Jury vs grave) The biggest problem is the possibility of cross contamination in the wind.
    Last edited by Michigander; 10-27-2010 at 10:46 AM.
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  5. #5
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutczak View Post
    You're basicsally screwed! In MI, a Resident of IL has more rights than a WI resident.
    I disagree. The law is very clear: If you are "A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.", MCL 28.422 (Pistol Registration) DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU. Notice that this exception DOES NOT require one to be a "resident" of where you have the permit. Also, there is legal precedent which I will add later (I am at work ), which indicates that a state has no right to determine if anyone is a "resident" of any other state; they may ONLY determine who would be considered residency of that state (the one actually trying to determine residency. Furthermore, the ATF has determined that, in regards to firearm purchases, one may have a part-time residency in one state and have a part-time residency in another... however, one can NOT have residency in more than one state at a time.

    Since this is the law which prohibits OC and possession by requiring registration, you should be good to go. I would, however, follow Michigander's advice and prepare for the worst.

    MCL28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; citation as “Janet Kukuk act”.
    Sec. 12.
    (1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A police or correctional agency of the United States or of this state or any subdivision of this state.
    (b) The United States army, air force, navy, or marine corps.
    (c) An organization authorized by law to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state.
    (d) The national guard, armed forces reserves, or other duly authorized military organization.
    (e) A member of an entity or organization described in subdivisions (a) through (d) for a pistol while engaged in the course of his or her duties with that entity or while going to or returning from those duties.
    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.
    (g) The regular and ordinary transportation of a pistol as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms or a licensed dealer.
    (h) Purchasing, owning, carrying, possessing, using, or transporting an antique firearm. As used in this subdivision, "antique firearm" means that term as defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.
    (i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual's possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.
    (2) The amendatory act that added subsection (1)(h) shall be known and may be cited as the "Janet Kukuk act".


    History: 1927, Act 372, Eff. Sept. 5, 1927 ;-- CL 1929, 16761 ;-- CL 1948, 28.432 ;-- Am. 1964, Act 216, Eff. Aug. 28, 1964 ;-- Am. 2000, Act 381, Eff. July 1, 2001 ;-- Am. 2004, Act 99, Imd. Eff. May 13, 2004 ;-- Am. 2006, Act 75, Eff. July 1, 2006 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 195, Eff. Jan. 7, 2009
    Popular Name: CCW
    Popular Name: Concealed Weapons
    Popular Name: CPL
    Popular Name: Right to Carry
    Popular Name: Shall Issue

    MCL28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.
    Sec. 2.
    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.
    (2) A person who brings a pistol into this state who is on leave from active duty with the armed forces of the United States or who has been discharged from active duty with the armed forces of the United States shall obtain a license for the pistol within 30 days after his or her arrival in this state.
    (3) The commissioner or chief of police of a city, township, or village police department that issues licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols, or his or her duly authorized deputy, or the sheriff or his or her duly authorized deputy, in the parts of a county not included within a city, township, or village having an organized police department, in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols to qualified applicants residing within the city, village, township, or county, as applicable unless he or she has probable cause to believe that the applicant would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would violate a law of this or another state or of the United States. An applicant is qualified if all of the following circumstances exist:
    (a) The person is not subject to an order or disposition for which he or she has received notice and an opportunity for a hearing, and which was entered into the law enforcement information network pursuant to any of the following:
    (i) Section 464a of the mental health code, 1974 PA 258, MCL 330.1464a.
    (ii) Section 5107 of the estates and protected individuals code, 1998 PA 386, MCL 700.5107, or section 444a of former 1978 PA 642.
    (iii) Section 2950 of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.2950.
    (iv) Section 2950a of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.2950a.
    (v) Section 14 of 1846 RS 84, MCL 552.14.
    (vi) Section 6b of chapter V of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 765.6b, if the order has a condition imposed under section 6b(3) of chapter V of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 765.6b.
    (vii) Section 16b of chapter IX of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 769.16b.
    (b) The person is 18 years of age or older or, if the seller is licensed under 18 USC 923, is 21 years of age or older.
    (c) The person is a citizen of the United States and is a legal resident of this state. For the purposes of this section, a person shall be considered a legal resident of this state if any of the following apply:
    (i) The person has a valid, lawfully obtained Michigan driver license issued under the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.1 to 257.923, or an official state personal identification card issued under 1972 PA 222, MCL 28.291 to 28.300.
    (ii) The person is lawfully registered to vote in this state.
    (iii) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is stationed outside of this state, but the person's home of record is in this state.
    (iv) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is permanently stationed in this state, but the person's home of record is in another state.
    (d) A felony charge or a criminal charge listed in section 5b against the person is not pending at the time of application.
    (e) The person is not prohibited from possessing, using, transporting, selling, purchasing, carrying, shipping, receiving, or distributing a firearm under section 224f of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.224f.
    (f) The person has not been adjudged insane in this state or elsewhere unless he or she has been adjudged restored to sanity by court order.
    (g) The person is not under an order of involuntary commitment in an inpatient or outpatient setting due to mental illness.
    (h) The person has not been adjudged legally incapacitated in this state or elsewhere. This subdivision does not apply to a person who has had his or her legal capacity restored by order of the court.
    (i) The person correctly answers 70% or more of the questions on a basic pistol safety review questionnaire approved by the department of state police and provided to the individual free of charge by the licensing authority. If the person fails to correctly answer 70% or more of the questions on the basic pistol safety review questionnaire, the licensing authority shall inform the person of the questions he or she answered incorrectly and allow the person to attempt to complete another basic pistol safety review questionnaire. The person shall not be allowed to attempt to complete more than 2 basic pistol safety review questionnaires on any single day. The licensing authority shall allow the person to attempt to complete the questionnaire during normal business hours on the day the person applies for his or her license.
    (4) Applications for licenses under this section shall be signed by the applicant under oath upon forms provided by the director of the department of state police. Licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols shall be executed in quadruplicate upon forms provided by the director of the department of state police and shall be signed by the licensing authority. Four copies of the license shall be delivered to the applicant by the licensing authority. A license is void unless used within 10 days after the date it is issued.
    (5) If an individual purchases or otherwise acquires a pistol, the seller shall fill out the license forms describing the pistol, together with the date of sale or acquisition, and sign his or her name in ink indicating that the pistol was sold to or otherwise acquired by the purchaser. The purchaser shall also sign his or her name in ink indicating the purchase or other acquisition of the pistol from the seller. The seller may retain a copy of the license as a record of the transaction. The purchaser shall receive 3 copies of the license. The purchaser shall return 2 copies of the license to the licensing authority within 10 days after the date the pistol is purchased or acquired. The return of the copies to the licensing authority may be made in person or may be made by first-class mail or certified mail sent within the 10-day period to the proper address of the licensing authority. A purchaser who fails to comply with the requirements of this subsection is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $250.00. If a purchaser is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this subsection, the court shall notify the department of state police of that determination.
    (6) Within 48 hours after receiving the license copies returned under subsection (5), the licensing authority shall forward 1 copy of the license to the department of state police. The licensing authority shall retain the other copy of the license as an official record for not less than 6 years. Within 10 days after receiving the license copies returned under subsection (5), the licensing authority shall electronically enter the information into the pistol entry database as required by the department of state police if it has the ability to electronically enter that information. If the licensing authority does not have that ability, the licensing authority shall provide that information to the department of state police in a manner otherwise required by the department of state police. Any licensing authority that provided pistol descriptions to the department of state police under former section 9 of this act shall continue to provide pistol descriptions to the department of state police under this subsection. The purchaser has the right to obtain a copy of the information placed in the pistol entry database under this subsection to verify the accuracy of that information. The licensing authority may charge a fee not to exceed $1.00 for the cost of providing the copy. The licensee may carry, use, possess, and transport the pistol for 30 days beginning on the date of purchase or acquisition only while he or she is in possession of his or her copy of the license. However, the person is not required to have the license in his or her possession while carrying, using, possessing, or transporting the pistol after this period.
    (7) This section does not apply to the purchase of pistols from wholesalers by dealers regularly engaged in the business of selling pistols at retail, or to the sale, barter, or exchange of pistols kept as relics or curios not made for modern ammunition or permanently deactivated. This section does not prevent the transfer of ownership of pistols that are inherited if the license to purchase is approved by the commissioner or chief of police, sheriff, or their authorized deputies, and signed by the personal representative of the estate or by the next of kin having authority to dispose of the pistol.
    (8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.
    (b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).
    (c) The individual is the owner of the pistol he or she possesses, carries, or transports.
    (d) The individual possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as that term is defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.
    (e) The individual is in this state for a period of 180 days or less and does not intend to establish residency in this state.
    (9) An individual who is a nonresident of this state shall present the license described in subsection (8)(a) upon the demand of a police officer. An individual who violates this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    (10) The licensing authority may require a person claiming active duty status with the United States armed forces to provide proof of 1 or both of the following:
    (a) The person's home of record.
    (b) Permanent active duty assignment in this state.
    (11) This section does not apply to a person who is younger than the age required under subsection (3)(b) and who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing that pistol.
    (b) The person is at a recognized target range.
    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.
    (d) The person's parent or guardian is physically present and supervising the person.
    (e) The owner of the pistol is physically present.
    (12) This section does not apply to a person who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a pistol.
    (b) The person is at a recognized target range or shooting facility.
    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.
    (d) The owner of the pistol is physically present and supervising the use of the pistol.
    (13) The licensing authority shall provide a basic pistol safety brochure to each applicant for a license under this section before the applicant answers the basic pistol safety review questionnaire. A basic pistol safety brochure shall contain, but is not limited to providing, information on all of the following subjects:
    (a) Rules for safe handling and use of pistols.
    (b) Safe storage of pistols.
    (c) Nomenclature and description of various types of pistols.
    (d) The responsibilities of owning a pistol.
    (14) The basic pistol safety brochure shall be supplied in addition to the safety pamphlet required by section 9b.
    (15) The basic pistol safety brochure required in subsection (13) shall be produced by a national nonprofit membership organization that provides voluntary pistol safety programs that include training individuals in the safe handling and use of pistols.
    (16) A person who forges any matter on an application for a license under this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both.
    (17) A licensing authority shall implement this section during all of the licensing authority's normal business hours and shall set hours for implementation that allow an applicant to use the license within the time period set forth in subsection (4).


    History: 1927, Act 372, Eff. Sept. 5, 1927 ;-- CL 1929, 16750 ;-- Am. 1931, Act 333, Imd. Eff. June 16, 1931 ;-- Am. 1941, Act 112, Imd. Eff. May 21, 1941 ;-- Am. 1943, Act 51, Imd. Eff. Mar. 30, 1943 ;-- CL 1948, 28.422 ;-- Am. 1949, Act 170, Eff. Sept. 23, 1949 ;-- Am. 1957, Act 259, Eff. Sept. 27, 1957 ;-- Am. 1964, Act 216, Eff. Aug. 28, 1964 ;-- Am. 1967, Act 158, Eff. Nov. 2, 1967 ;-- Am. 1968, Act 301, Eff. Nov. 15, 1968 ;-- Am. 1972, Act 15, Imd. Eff. Feb. 19, 1972 ;-- Am. 1986, Act 161, Eff. Aug. 1, 1986 ;-- Am. 1990, Act 320, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991 ;-- Am. 1992, Act 219, Imd. Eff. Oct. 13, 1992 ;-- Am. 1992, Act 220, Imd. Eff. Oct. 13, 1992 ;-- Am. 1994, Act 338, Eff. Apr. 1, 1996 ;-- Am. 2004, Act 101, Imd. Eff. May 13, 2004 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 195, Eff. Jan. 7, 2009 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 406, Imd. Eff. Jan. 6, 2009 ;-- Am. 2010, Act 20, Imd. Eff. Mar. 25, 2010
    Constitutionality: The Michigan Court of Appeals held in Chan v City of Troy, 220 Mich App 376; 559 NW2d 374 (1997), that the citizen requirement, now MCL 28.422(3)(c), for a permit to purchase a pistol contained in MCL 28.422(3)(b) violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution and is unconstitutional.
    Popular Name: CCW
    Popular Name: Concealed Weapons
    Popular Name: CPL
    Popular Name: Right to Carry
    Popular Name: Shall Issue

    © 2009 Legislative Council, State of Michigan
    Last edited by DrTodd; 10-26-2010 at 01:13 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  6. #6
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Michigan only recognizes RESIDENT permits of other states. If you are not a RESIDENT of the state that issued your permit, you cannot posses a "pistol" in Michigan (open or concealed).

    What's a pistol?

    Any firearm that is under 30" in length. This includes rifles that have a folding/collapsing stalk IF:
    A) the firearm is shorter than 30" with the stalk completely folded/collapsed AND
    B) the firearm can be fired from this condition.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Michigan only recognizes RESIDENT permits of other states. If you are not a RESIDENT of the state that issued your permit, you cannot posses a "pistol" in Michigan (open or concealed).

    What's a pistol?

    Any firearm that is under 30" in length. This includes rifles that have a folding/collapsing stalk IF:
    A) the firearm is shorter than 30" with the stalk completely folded/collapsed AND
    B) the firearm can be fired from this condition.
    I suggest you read the posts DrTodd made, and the one of mine he linked to.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Michigan only recognizes RESIDENT permits of other states. If you are not a RESIDENT of the state that issued your permit, you cannot posses a "pistol" in Michigan (open or concealed).
    That only applies to CONCEALED carry reciprocity.

    ETA: This excerpt from the recent MSP update.


    Non-resident concealed pistol possession


    MCL 750.231a makes it legal for a non-resident of Michigan with a valid CPL issued by his or her state of residence to carry a concealed pistol in Michigan as long as the pistol is carried in conformance with any and all restrictions appearing on the license. Individuals with out of state CPLs are subject to Michigan laws that govern Michigan CPL holders. As many states issue CPLs to out of state residents, officers should verify that the person actually resides in the state that issued the license. If the person does not reside in the state that issued the license, Michigan does not recognize the CPL and the person may not carry a concealed pistol in Michigan.

    Possession of pistols by non-residents


    MCL 28.432 makes it legal for non-residents of Michigan who hold valid CPLs issued by another state to possess a non-concealed pistol in
    Michigan without complying with Michigan’s pistol registration requirements. Additionally, MCL 28.422 exempts residents of other states from Michigan’s pistol registration requirements therefore, allowing them to possess a pistol in Michigan, if all of the following requirements are met:

    1.
    The person is licensed by his or her state of residence to purchase, transport, or carry a pistol,
    2.
    The person is in possession of the license while in Michigan,
    3.
    The person owns the pistol possessed in Michigan,
    4.
    The person possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as defined in MCL 750.231a, and
    5.
    The person is in Michigan less than 180 days and does not intend to establish residency here.

    A non-resident must present the license issued by his or her state of residence to a police officer upon demand. Failure to do so is a 90-day misdemeanor. When transporting a firearm in Michigan, non-residents must transport pistols in compliance with MCL 750.231a (discussed above in the Transporting Firearms section), unless they have a concealed pistol license issued by their state of residence.


    So again, if you want to CONCEAL or vehicle carry you must have a concealed pistol license from your state of residence. If you are going to open carry and transport your pistol unloaded, cased and in the trunk you only need a concealed license from ANY state OR a license to possess a pistol from your state of residence (think Illinois' FOID card).

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 10-26-2010 at 03:23 PM.
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  9. #9
    bhancock
    Guest
    Thank You all, very enlightening. My question left is how they will deal with a resident of a state that doesn't issue a license to purchase or possess. The update say all 5 requirements must be met.

    MCL 28.432 makes it legal for non-residents of Michigan who hold valid CPLs issued by another state to possess a non-concealed pistol in Michigan without complying with Michigan’s pistol registration requirements. Additionally, MCL 28.422 exempts residents of other states from Michigan’s pistol registration requirements therefore, allowing them to possess a pistol in Michigan, if all of the following requirements are met:
    1.The person is licensed by his or her state of residence to purchase, transport, or carry a pistol,
    2.The person is in possession of the license while in Michigan,
    3.The person owns the pistol possessed in Michigan,
    4.The person possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as defined in MCL 750.231a, and
    5.The person is in Michigan less than 180 days and does not intend to establish residency here.
    A non-resident must present the license issued by his or her state of residence to a police officer upon demand. Failure to do so is a 90-day misdemeanor. When transporting a firearm in Michigan, non-residents must transport pistols in compliance with MCL 750.231a (discussed above in the Transporting Firearms section), unless they have a concealed pistol license issued by their state of residence.

    Will number 1 and 2 be satisfied because I am legal to purchase, transport, or carry a pistol in my home state?

  10. #10
    bhancock
    Guest
    Sorry, answered my own question. I missed the exception above:

    MCL28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; citation as “Janet Kukuk act”.
    .
    .
    .
    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.

  11. #11
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    Very interesting and productive discussion guys!

    I learned somthing new, and glad to hear that the MSDP legal update picked it up, that is, that despite discriminiating against non-residents without home state permit to conceal guns, Michigan is OK with non-residents open carrying unregistered pistols of thye have a carry permit from ANY state!

  12. #12
    bhancock
    Guest
    Since it has been published, I will bring a copy of the MSP Legal update and my least expensive handgun transported in the trunk. I am also bringing a long gun in the trunk to show my dad. I will only be around for two days so the opportunity to OC may be minimal. Anyone OC in the Sawyer, Bridgeman, ST. Joseph areas?

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