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MSP Legal Update is Up!
- Thread starter Outdoorsman
- Start date
Well this is a very good thing for the MSP to address, however what
everybody needs to keep in mind is it has... ZERO... legal value.
It's a fine training aid for the MSP, but other departments can/will choose
to ignore it if they wish.
You can bet most judges will look at it and yawn..... and they are the ones
who really count.
Dave
everybody needs to keep in mind is it has... ZERO... legal value.
It's a fine training aid for the MSP, but other departments can/will choose
to ignore it if they wish.
You can bet most judges will look at it and yawn..... and they are the ones
who really count.
Dave
Tucker6900
Regular Member
Man....
I should have read that long ago. That would have cleared up ALOT of non-resident questions I had. THANKS!!!!
I should have read that long ago. That would have cleared up ALOT of non-resident questions I had. THANKS!!!!
cmdr_iceman71
Regular Member
Beautiful! So how does the document print out...... compared to a trifold? Is it too cumbersome?
ElectricianLU58
Regular Member
three pages if you only print on one side. obviously one and a half if you print on two sides.
springerdave
Regular Member
I did mine on 8.5x11 front and back of one sheet and front of another.springerdave.
PDinDetroit
Regular Member
Welcome to OCDO.
Sure, they can ignore it - at their own peril. Ask Grand Haven about how that went for them.
I disagree that judges are the ones who really count. I believe that Police Officers are the ones that really count, as they are the ones who interact OC'ers. A person who OC's doesn't get to stand in front of a judge without first being in front of a Police Officer. If the Police Officers are trained properly to respect rights, then you never see a judge for Lawful Behavior.
There have been multiple publications about Terry Stops and Open Carry in Michigan from LEAF Updates:
http://www.mml.org/insurance/shared/publications/leaf_newsletter/2008_03.pdf
http://www.mml.org/insurance/shared/publications/leaf_newsletter/2009_04.pdf
http://www.mml.org/insurance/shared/publications/leaf_newsletter/2009_06.pdf
There have been multiple publications about Terry Stops and Open Carry in Michigan from MSP Updates:
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/2003may_69035_7.PDF
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Legal_Update_-_May_2006_160746_7.pdf
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_-_April_2007_198953_7.pdf
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_-_May_2007_198956_7.pdf
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._66_238184_7.pdf
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._68_253629_7.pdf
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf
There are have been multiple News Media Articles discussing the legality of Open Carry. Just ask the City of Royal Oak about this.
There are now 290 pages with 7,248 Posts of MI Open Carry Experiences on OCDO alone (MOC and MGO have these as well). The incidents with Police Officers are now few and far between compared with just a few years ago.
I believe that the information about Open Carry is out there and Local Police Departments have listened to it. The evidence is overwhelming...
sasha601
Regular Member
Technically, yes. PDs can ignore it but this MSP update makes it much, much harder to justify arrest and prosecution. I do not see how conviction can be secured with defense lawyer using this MSP update, especially in front of the Jury. I bet it will be very rare from now on for local PDs to go against this legal update.
budlight
Regular Member
Agreed. If a defense attorney properly articulated the statute covering what the defendant was charged with, sighting all the exceptions along with any case law, followed by the MSP Legal Update, I have little doubt that a jury would acquit.
When a jury sees that MSP backs up what a defense attorney says, they will know that it is just not his or her opinion. The MSP update would become the icing on the cake.
On a side note, for everyone’s sake, I hope that law enforcement uses this update as a training tool and that there are no more bad OC encounters for lawfully carrying a weapon. Even if someone is wrongfully arrested and later acquitted, most of us don’t have thousands of dollars just laying around to pay a defense attorney to take a case to trial.
PDinDetroit
I agree you won't visit with the judge if the police officer doesn't have an issue.
However I still think they (judges) will have the final answer. There were posts about
a case that is headed to appeal based on initial ruling of a "activist" judge.
( sorry don't have the link right now)
Talking primarly about open carry in PFZs with a CPL.
I think that those departments or localities with a "anti" view will be watching
these types of cases closely. If they result in convictions, it'll be open season
on open carriers in PFZs.
I had a personal conversation with a judge about this issue a few months ago.
He is not "up" on firearms laws, but after a brief outline of the situation his
take was it'll be a few years before there is enough case law to solidify things,
and don't bet your ass on it in one way or the other in the mean time.
Dave
I agree you won't visit with the judge if the police officer doesn't have an issue.
However I still think they (judges) will have the final answer. There were posts about
a case that is headed to appeal based on initial ruling of a "activist" judge.
( sorry don't have the link right now)
Talking primarly about open carry in PFZs with a CPL.
I think that those departments or localities with a "anti" view will be watching
these types of cases closely. If they result in convictions, it'll be open season
on open carriers in PFZs.
I had a personal conversation with a judge about this issue a few months ago.
He is not "up" on firearms laws, but after a brief outline of the situation his
take was it'll be a few years before there is enough case law to solidify things,
and don't bet your ass on it in one way or the other in the mean time.
Dave
stainless1911
Banned
Waterford Township PD has indicated that they are in disagreement with the MSP position on OC with CPL in a PFZ, and will continue to stand on their position that at least in schools, OC is illegal under 237a. They did say they would be in contact with MSP about this question however.
eastmeyers
Regular Member
Just Awesome
NHCGRPR45
Regular Member
i wouldn't say he harrased me, in fact i don't really feel that he was wrong to stop me. he may have detained me for a short time but IMO he was following what i would have wanted him to do if it was my kids school. he saw a man with a gun outside a very busy and big school, kids walking down the same side of the street i was on. IMO that needs a little more investigation, he pulled up we talked he pushed a little to see what kind of mood/mind i was in and once he was sure i wasn't a threat to the kids he left.
some here might disagree with me, but i didn't feel to put out by him haveing a conversation with me to determine if i was a danger to the students walking home. the only reason he didn't get my ID was because he was pushy about it. and now i believe he was pushy and demanding for the reasons above.
so IMO he wasn't 100% right, with how he handled the situation, but neither was he 100% wrong.
stainless1911
Banned
I don't have a problem with his looking into it either, just the way he handled it. On the other hand, sometimes a cop will try to rattle you a bit to test your mettle, to assert his authority, or to see how you react, If you carry yourself appropriately, then he will lose the front, and possibly gain some respect for you at the same time. Where OC is concerned, it could be a benefit to us all in the end.
budlight
Regular Member
Carrying OC or CC in a casino is prohibited. I don’t have the statute handy, but it was a separate one, not the usual ones we discuss here.
autosurgeon
Regular Member
You are correct firearm carry in a Casino is restricted by the gaming act.
budlight
Regular Member
It is officers like this that should not have a badge. What part of the statutes do they NOT understand? It doesn't take a high priced lawyer to understand them. Then when the top law enforcement agency in Michigan renders an opinion that mirrors what the law says they still don't understand?
I don’t think they really disagree, I think they don’t like the fact that the law is not written to their expectation. The only question I have is what do they plan to do about it? Are they going to make an arrest on it and potentially put the city in hock after someone slaps them with a lawsuit?
DrTodd
Michigan Moderator
And since the Gaming Act only deals with the Non-NA casinos...
stainless1911
Banned
It wouldn't surprise me if they would go to great lengths to keep their position, up to, and including placing a bet (at our expense) that a judge, one of them, a member of the just-us system, will buy into their argument.
Frankly, I could use the money, but as they say, it takes money to make money, and money is one thing that I do not have.
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