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The 4 MSP Legal updates that explain the legality of Open Carry in MI

NHCGRPR45

NHCGRPR45

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k_rasmussen said:
Pleased to be able to celebrate this legal update of 10/26/2010 with my first post.
Click to expand...

welcome! and welcome to OC, if you ever want to get together on a week end drop me a PM and we can grab coffee! shaun

xd shooter said:
Went to the second part of my CCW class, a MSP trooper giving the class on the Laws of the State of Michigan.

He DID have a copy of bulletin #86, and touched on it briefly during his discussion.

Later, while discussing the PFZ's, he mentioned all the places you could NOT carry weapons into, at which point I asked for clarification, asking if that meant carrying CONCEALED into these PFZ's, he stated that meant you could NOT carry into these places period.

I pointed out the paragraph that stated that with a CPL and OPEN carrying that this statute "does not apply". He then stated that this was a confusing statement and that he had an e-mail to Lansing, asking for further clarification.

We breifly discussed Open Carry, and why HE as a LEO didn't think that it was a good idea, citing scaring the Public and causing MWAG calls which COULD, he stressed COULD, cause some embarrasing situations for you as the gun carrier.

I gave him my card and asked that when he received any clarification from Lansing to contact me with the results. I hope that he does, as it could then also be added to his discussion at these classes.

Thoughts?
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he was basing his argument off of his personal opinion. he might not agree with it or is worried about giving his opinion and haveing it used against him somehow.

Bronson said:
CRIPES MAN! What the hell is he talking about? It's not confusing, it's plain as day and anybody with a 6th grade reading level should be able to understand it. He just doesn't like it so he's looking for ways to go on teaching the same old BS that he's always spouted. I'd ask for my money back since he's teaching incorrect/false information.

Bronson
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yes it is, your 100% right, but he dosen't want to make a stand on the issue one way or the other. when he said he was going to "ask for clarification" that was a non-answer and a good way to CYA.:uhoh:
he may not agree with the #86 update and just didn't want to give the info out, or anyother of many reasons.

:idea:eek:r he may have been trying to help in his own way, he may not agree that OC with a CPL give a person the abillity to OC in a PFZ, and was recomending that you not do it to try and keep you out of trouble.

just something to think about,,,:idea:

but i agree with the general concensus that OC + CPL = OC in PFZ's:banana:
 
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A

apjonas

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PFZ's are

are restriction to the general ability to carry concealed pistols. It is permissible to OC in a PFZ without any permit/license unless the place in the PFZ is either (a) also enumerated on the firearms free zone (750.234d - in that case, a MI CPL, or any state permit will authorize OC) or (b) covered by another provision of law. For example, Bob is a resident of Maryland and has (only) a Florida CCW. Can Bob carry concealed in MI? No, because the permit is not issued by his state of residence. May Bob openly carry in a PFZ? Sure. Because even if the PFZ is listed in the firearms free zones, Bob's FL permit exempts him. (Again, this assumes there is no other provision of law that applies.) There is nothing in 28.425o that requires a permit for OC in a PFZ. It really is a CPFZ (with a couple of exceptions). Where is the hole in this analysis?
 
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markm

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MSP does not know MCL law!

Hello Michigan,

I am a Kalifornia resident. My wife owns a house in L'Anse.

I asked A Baraga County Deputy Sherriff about non-residents possessing handguns in MI. I also asked an MSP officer about it. The DNR website stated that I could not. I have now read the 2008 legal update and know why they said I could not. MSP was not competant enough to read MCL and interpret the law.

Last summer, I wrote MSP an email citing MCL which states that I can possess. The clerk at the Prosecuting Attorney's office knew more about MCL then MSP did. She gave me pertinent MCL statutes.

Now, I have read MSP Legal Update #86. I can possess a pistol in Michigan; it is official.

Thank you to the posters on this site that helped me to understand the difference between a CPL and a License To Purchase.

Unbelievable. MSP did not know their own law. Just like Kalifornia LEO.

Government is not the answer, it is the problem (Ronald Reagan).

markm
 
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apjonas

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Misleading

Possession of pistols by non-residents

MCL 28.432 makes it legal for non-residents of Michigan who hold valid CPLs issued by another state to possess a non-concealed pistol in Michigan without complying with Michigan’s pistol registration requirements.

Additionally, MCL 28.422 exempts residents of other states from Michigan’s pistol registration requirements therefore, allowing them to possess a pistol in Michigan, if all of the following requirements are met:

1. The person is licensed by his or her state of residence to purchase, transport, or carry a pistol,
2. The person is in possession of the license while in Michigan,
3. The person owns the pistol possessed in Michigan,
4. The person possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as defined in MCL 750.231a, and
5. The person is in Michigan less than 180 days and does not intend to establish residency here.
A non-resident must present the license issued by his or her state of residence to a police officer upon demand. Failure to do so is a 90-day misdemeanor. When transporting a firearm in Michigan, non-residents must transport pistols in compliance with MCL 750.231a (discussed above in the Transporting Firearms section), unless they have a concealed pistol license issued by their state of residence.

This last part should specifically include reference concealed possession. A person with a home state permit can possess/open carry under MCL 28.432. OC does not require a home state permit.
 
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markm

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I don't understand!

apjonas said:
Possession of pistols by non-residents

MCL 28.432 makes it legal for non-residents of Michigan who hold valid CPLs issued by another state to possess a non-concealed pistol in Michigan without complying with Michigan’s pistol registration requirements.

Additionally, MCL 28.422 exempts residents of other states from Michigan’s pistol registration requirements therefore, allowing them to possess a pistol in Michigan, if all of the following requirements are met:

1. The person is licensed by his or her state of residence to purchase, transport, or carry a pistol,
2. The person is in possession of the license while in Michigan,
3. The person owns the pistol possessed in Michigan,
4. The person possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as defined in MCL 750.231a, and
5. The person is in Michigan less than 180 days and does not intend to establish residency here.
A non-resident must present the license issued by his or her state of residence to a police officer upon demand. Failure to do so is a 90-day misdemeanor. When transporting a firearm in Michigan, non-residents must transport pistols in compliance with MCL 750.231a (discussed above in the Transporting Firearms section), unless they have a concealed pistol license issued by their state of residence.

This last part should specifically include reference concealed possession. A person with a home state permit can possess/open carry under MCL 28.432. OC does not require a home state permit.
Click to expand...

Hello apjonas,

Is your point that MCL 28.422 indicates that a non-Michigan resident must have a CPL from another state to possess in Michigan? Why do you state: "This last part should specifically include reference concealed possession."

A "license to purchase..." is not a CPL. My Kalifornia HSC is my "license to purchase, transprt, or carry".

There are two different licenses for handguns in Michigan.

I am a little confused by your post.

markm
 
DrTodd

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In his defense, Michigan's law can be confusing. Besides what you said, remember too that one could have a cpl and not be a resident of the state that issued the license to conceal.
 
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apjonas

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MSP is doing the confusing

Pretty much what you said. 28.432 and 28.422 both provide the means for a non-resident to possess in MI. 28.422 is the more difficult to meet. If you meet 28.422 by definition you meet 28.432. The only reason to talk about 28.422 is if concealed carry is desired. By throwing in 28.422 (with all its requirements), the issue (which is possess/OC) is muddied. You would not need to prove residency in the state of license issue since under 28.432 it is not required.

,
MarkBofRAdvocate said:
Hello apjonas,

Is your point that MCL 28.422 indicates that a non-Michigan resident must have a CPL from another state to possess in Michigan? Why do you state: "This last part should specifically include reference concealed possession."

A "license to purchase..." is not a CPL. My Kalifornia HSC is my "license to purchase, transprt, or carry".

There are two different licenses for handguns in Michigan.

I am a little confused by your post.

markm
Click to expand...
 
jt59

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visiting in July

Greetings all, and congrats on all your good efforts in MI, my old alma mater.

I am visiting from WA and have read through the MSP training bulletin's and reference links to state law...and am looking for clarification.

I am a LCCP holder in WA (concealed pistol)....so, as I read it, I can pretty much carry open or closed, in a vehicle, loaded, open and or concealed.

I can carry in all of the restricted areas called out in the law, as long as I do it openly and not concealed,...theater's, banks, church, sporting events, etc..... which leaves me with the question of what absolute exclusions of carry either open or closed (please don't list the private property exemptions for business owners, as I get that).

Second question, is regarding airports...in WA you can legally carry open or closed in any area of the airport except the "restricted" areas...or past the security checkpoints.

How does it work in MI at Det. Metro? I'll be putting my guns through the regular check in baggage procedure and into luggage and picking them up to put on and load before I hit the road....Ammo issues?

thanks,

jt
 
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detroit_fan

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jt59 said:
Greetings all, and congrats on all your good efforts in MI, my old alma mater.

I am visiting from WA and have read through the MSP training bulletin's and reference links to state law...and am looking for clarification.

I am a LCCP holder in WA (concealed pistol)....so, as I read it, I can pretty much carry open or closed, in a vehicle, loaded, open and or concealed.

I can carry in all of the restricted areas called out in the law, as long as I do it openly and not concealed,...theater's, banks, church, sporting events, etc..... which leaves me with the question of what absolute exclusions of carry either open or closed (please don't list the private property exemptions for business owners, as I get that).



thanks,

jt
Click to expand...

I don't fly and never have the need to do anything at the airport, so I'll let someone familiar with that answer your second question.

With your LCCP you may carry anyway you want in a vehicle, including loaded CC or OC.

You may carry openly in PFZ's(pistol free zones) since you have a LCCP, but not concealed. The exception to this is casinos, they are completely off limits to any type of carry(including parking lot). Also, any federal banks would be off limits for any type of carry. Our state universities have special power in MI, so they may impose their own rules, and most (if not all) do not allow carry.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong or left out something important.
 
jt59

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detroit_fan said:
I don't fly and never have the need to do anything at the airport, so I'll let someone familiar with that answer your second question.

With your LCCP you may carry anyway you want in a vehicle, including loaded CC or OC.

You may carry openly in PFZ's(pistol free zones) since you have a LCCP, but not concealed. The exception to this is casinos, they are completely off limits to any type of carry(including parking lot). Also, any federal banks would be off limits for any type of carry. Our state universities have special power in MI, so they may impose their own rules, and most (if not all) do not allow carry.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong or left out something important.
Click to expand...

What is a "Federal Bank"? I don't think I know what that is..is it defined in statute? A number of our national banks have some limiting rules, but others like Wells Fargo, enforce as policy, what ever the state rule is, thus I can (and do) open carry there at Wells Fargo........sorry, that's where Benake' lives. The Fed of Chicago seems to be the district bank for the zone including MI, but they don't actually seem to have much of any bank services....I can't image why I would go there, but it's a good FYI

.......and it appears that the rules for MI airports are similiar to WA...
 
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detroit_fan

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jt59 said:
What is a "Federal Bank"? I don't think I know what that is..is it defined in statute? A number of our national banks have some limiting rules, but others like Wells Fargo, enforce as policy, what ever the state rule is, thus I can (and do) open carry there at Wells Fargo........sorry, that's where Benake' lives. The Fed of Chicago seems to be the district bank for the zone including MI, but they don't actually seem to have much of any bank services....I can't image why I would go there, but it's a good FYI

.......and it appears that the rules for MI airports are similiar to WA...
Click to expand...

I only know of 1 Federal Bank in Michigan, and it's in detroit. I believe the full name is Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago: Detroit Branch. I didn't expect you to go there, but just wanted to mention it since it is a prohibited place(by federal law).
 
Bronson

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detroit_fan said:
I only know of 1 Federal Bank in Michigan, and it's in detroit. I believe the full name is Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago: Detroit Branch. I didn't expect you to go there, but just wanted to mention it since it is a prohibited place(by federal law).
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Of course any Fed. buildings like Post Offices and any Courts and most likely any building that houses a Court.

There's a chart in this thread http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...erence-chart&p=1472938&viewfull=1#post1472938 it's in post #100 on page 4.

Bronson
 
jt59

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Golden Eagle

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jt59 said:
Greetings all, and congrats on all your good efforts in MI, my old alma mater.

I am visiting from WA and have read through the MSP training bulletin's and reference links to state law...and am looking for clarification.

I am a LCCP holder in WA (concealed pistol)....so, as I read it, I can pretty much carry open or closed, in a vehicle, loaded, open and or concealed.

I can carry in all of the restricted areas called out in the law, as long as I do it openly and not concealed,...theater's, banks, church, sporting events, etc..... which leaves me with the question of what absolute exclusions of carry either open or closed.
Click to expand...

You have a carry license from you home state so you follow this concealed law http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(hs...eg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-28-425o but you can open carry in those places exept for the schools, colleges, corts, Detroit casinos and post offices.

jt59 said:
(please don't list the private property exemptions for business owners, as I get that).
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Are you sure? their pretty lenient here.


jt59 said:
Second question, is regarding airports...in WA you can legally carry open or closed in any area of the airport except the "restricted" areas...or past the security checkpoints.

How does it work in MI at Det. Metro? I'll be putting my guns through the regular check in baggage procedure and into luggage and picking them up to put on and load before I hit the road....Ammo issues?

thanks,

jt
Click to expand...
Just not the sterile area of the airport; we have the same law. I had a friend fly with ammo I think it's up to the airline.
wave2.gif


Oh and did you see this? http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?88592-Flying-with-a-firearm-Good-info.
 
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Gort

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TheQ

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Golden Eagle said:
Another discussion. Most say Federal law, hes out of state so he needs to follow the 1000 foot rule.
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What he said -- which technically makes any carry illegal in most urban places :(

I think there are more places in Lansing within 1000' of a school than not :(
 
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