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Thread: 1st time in a year, I have to be unarmed

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    1st time in a year, I have to be unarmed

    Well it is time for the first field trip of the year for my 4th grader. I am going as a chaperone. We are headed out tomorrow for Woodland Park Zoo. As per school rules, I cannot possess any weapons. This is gonna feel weird as have not been unarmed since last year. Wish there was some consideration by the schools to their policy as they have no control over who is at the school "function" as they do on the school grounds.

    kenzmad

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    Regular Member maclean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenzmad View Post
    Well it is time for the first field trip of the year for my 4th grader. I am going as a chaperone. We are headed out tomorrow for Woodland Park Zoo. As per school rules, I cannot possess any weapons. This is gonna feel weird as have not been unarmed since last year. Wish there was some consideration by the schools to their policy as they have no control over who is at the school "function" as they do on the school grounds.

    kenzmad
    I feel for you.

    Teachers and chaperones should be able to be armed.
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    Too bad you found out about the rule.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Of course when my girls were that age I never chaperoned on the bus or with the group. However, if I was off, I generally made myself available to be at the zoo at the same time.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alienbogey View Post
    Too bad you found out about the rule.
    It is each of our responsibility to know and I also agree Teachers and chaperons should be allowed to be armed as well.
    Last edited by BigDave; 10-27-2010 at 12:04 AM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Of course when my girls were that age I never chaperoned on the bus or with the group. However, if I was off, I generally made myself available to be at the zoo at the same time.
    thats a good idea, I hadn't thought about just being "there" and willing to take a few kids around. I am going to have to think on this one. what do you think the ramifications are since I already agreed to chaperone and did the fingerprints and the disclosure form if I said "I cant meet you at the school for the bus ride but can meet you at the zoo" and was discovered to be CCing. I CC in a crossbreed holster with a g26 so the odds of me being "made" are zero.

    kenzmad

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    I only mentioned CC cuz I would not think the school would let the kids go with someone OCing.

    kenzmad

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    For the discussion sake, do you think this might come into play?

    RCW 9.41.280 Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities — Penalty — Exceptions.
    (1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:
    (a) Any firearm;
    Or do you think this would only apply to school events as sporting, graduations etc. although open to the public as well.
    Last edited by BigDave; 10-27-2010 at 12:09 AM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenzmad View Post
    thats a good idea, I hadn't thought about just being "there" and willing to take a few kids around. I am going to have to think on this one. what do you think the ramifications are since I already agreed to chaperone and did the fingerprints and the disclosure form if I said "I cant meet you at the school for the bus ride but can meet you at the zoo" and was discovered to be CCing. I CC in a crossbreed holster with a g26 so the odds of me being "made" are zero.

    kenzmad
    On this one I would go as the chaperone. In the future I wouldn't. When you are there and not a chaperone you will not be able to act as such or "take a few kids around". However, you can hang out with the chaperone for your kid and have lunch with your kid and take pictures of your kid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    For the discussion sake, do you think this might come into play?



    Or do you think this would only apply to school events as sporting, graduations etc. although open to the public as well.
    I don't know. what do you guys think? I am not as versed in the rcw's as alot of folks here so I would welcome any opinions.

    kenzmad

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    The zoo is not being used exclusively for the school if it is open to the public that day.

    We conclude that the term "used exclusively" refers to uses where the school or schools have sole possession, control, or use of an area of a facility. It is not limited by the duration of the use.
    AG #1 1994
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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenzmad View Post
    I don't know. what do you guys think? I am not as versed in the rcw's as alot of folks here so I would welcome any opinions.

    kenzmad
    I would say that the zoo is probably not being used "exclusively" by the school like the RCW says. I'm pretty sure the zoo will be open to the general public.

    Apparently GoGo and I had the same idea.
    Last edited by tombrewster421; 10-27-2010 at 12:20 AM.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    The zoo is not being used exclusively for the school if it is open to the public that day.

    We conclude that the term "used exclusively" refers to uses where the school or schools have sole possession, control, or use of an area of a facility. It is not limited by the duration of the use.
    AG #1 1994
    Thanks for the link and now kenzmad you have a reference if ever needed.
    Last edited by BigDave; 10-27-2010 at 12:25 AM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Thanks for the link and now kenzmad you have a reference if ever needed.
    so, reading the AG's clarification, I can carry at the zoo but cannot carry on the bus as itis used exclusively for scool business. I am really thinking that I should just let them know I will be at the zoo when they arrive and still be a chaperone for their field trip.

    kenzmad

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    The school bus is considered being on school property. Your best bet is to meet them there. Or... What's that think I keep hearing? "Concealed means concealed..."
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenzmad View Post
    so, reading the AG's clarification, I can carry at the zoo but cannot carry on the bus as itis used exclusively for scool business. I am really thinking that I should just let them know I will be at the zoo when they arrive and still be a chaperone for their field trip.

    kenzmad
    That seems to fit the bill, but you may want to talk to your attorney after all this is just another Joe looking up and reading the laws, nothing binding.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderTattoo View Post
    The school bus is considered being on school property. Your best bet is to meet them there. Or... What's that think I keep hearing? "Concealed means concealed..."
    There is also a variation of that old question "If a Tree Falls in the Forest, and Nobody's There, Does It Make a Noise"?

    For firearms it goes "If you carry a firearm Concealed, and nobody see's it(or knows it's there), was it really there"?

    I sure love my Kel-Tec P3AT for just that reason.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member GreatWhiteLlama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenzmad View Post
    thats a good idea, I hadn't thought about just being "there" and willing to take a few kids around. I am going to have to think on this one. what do you think the ramifications are since I already agreed to chaperone and did the fingerprints and the disclosure form if I said "I cant meet you at the school for the bus ride but can meet you at the zoo" and was discovered to be CCing. I CC in a crossbreed holster with a g26 so the odds of me being "made" are zero.

    kenzmad
    Not sure Id want to go to the zoo unarmed.

    http://articles.sfgate.com/2008-01-0...-zoo-employees

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    Regular Member Lante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    There is also a variation of that old question "If a Tree Falls in the Forest, and Nobody's There, Does It Make a Noise"?

    For firearms it goes "If you carry a firearm Concealed, and nobody see's it(or knows it's there), was it really there"?

    I sure love my Kel-Tec P3AT for just that reason.


    Just remember you are around kids.....who may be close contact.....hugs, grabs etc. Concealed means concealed from view.....the kids may be doing more touching than looking depending on what your kids class is like.....

    Best bet from one who is in the schools regularly, and managed to get OC actually taught in one class..... go unarmed, be the model parent, help out whenever you can, however you can, and take the opportunity to sound out the teacher, and present good news articles.... say did you hear how (kid, parent, teacher, storeowner) saved _______. Good thing he was armed!. Teach the teacher, and they will teach the others....

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    So how did it go? You take the bus and go unarmed, or did you meet them there?
    I just realized that you're in Kent. My wife just happens to be a dispatcher for Kent school district transportation. She drove a bus for about 7 years.
    Certified Glock Armorer

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderTattoo View Post
    So how did it go? You take the bus and go unarmed, or did you meet them there?
    I just realized that you're in Kent. My wife just happens to be a dispatcher for Kent school district transportation. She drove a bus for about 7 years.
    went unarmed. not happy about it but what do you do? zoo was empty. like 10 cars in the parking lot. next time i'll be meeting them there as I almost feel naked without my firearm. damn, my pants fit funny without the holster. where are you spyder? I am just south of KK off 124th. I have a septic cleaning service that I have put on friendorfoe if you want to see where I am at exactly.

    kenzmad

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    I'm just a bit north of you. I'm on the Benson at around 220th. I'm at Fred Meyer there all the time.
    Certified Glock Armorer

    "A government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen..." -- Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)

    A 1911 that works properly is as rare as a Glock that doesn't.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lante View Post
    Just remember you are around kids.....who may be close contact.....hugs, grabs etc. Concealed means concealed from view......
    It is possible to carry and having these "hugs, grabs, etc" from revealing your firearm. If one insists on carrying in those circumstances a full sized pistol like a 1911, Sig, HK, etc, then perhaps you might have to go "unarmed".

    For those that don't mind "downsizing" when the occasion demands, small sub-compact pistols like the Kel-Tec provide some real good solutions. Ankle holsters can accommodate the larger options like "baby Glocks" or J-Frames while a Kel-Tec can be hung around your neck, inside your shirt, on a lanyard. It can also fit in the top of a western styled boot with a clip installed (tip: a loop of twine or heavy yarn in the clip can provide for a quick draw from a boot top.) Both locations are well concealed and are also outside the "grab/hug" zone. Naturally, carrying in this manner requires a CPL which won't help if discovered on a School Bus. Deep concealment like this works for undercover officers in circumstances that provide far worse consequences if discovered than being on a School Bus. If your concern is being "unarmed" and it is a valid concern due to the areas to be visited, these are options. There is always the old axiom "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

    The keys are good concealment with a weapon that conceals well and most important keep it a secret!
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member killchain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenzmad View Post
    Well it is time for the first field trip of the year for my 4th grader. I am going as a chaperone. We are headed out tomorrow for Woodland Park Zoo. As per school rules, I cannot possess any weapons. This is gonna feel weird as have not been unarmed since last year. Wish there was some consideration by the schools to their policy as they have no control over who is at the school "function" as they do on the school grounds.

    kenzmad
    I quote various people here and elsewhere...

    "Concealed means concealed." The school can shove it later after you've protected your child.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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    Regular Member dizzle2's Avatar
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    wow, the one place with a bunch of people and you cant carry a weapon? i would at least take a taser or a little "pea shooter" pistol concealed in my sock! lol

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