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Thread: From the Outdoor Report: Bow hunter charged with carrying pistol illegally

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    From the Outdoor Report: Bow hunter charged with carrying pistol illegally

    One of the few instances where open carry(without also having a CHP) is not legal is while bowhunting. Now this guy was hunting over bait so he's not w/o fault. Though on the bait charge i partially fault the retail stores that stock and promote this stuff after Sept 1 when it is illegal to feed deer period. All these cmere deer and acorn rage products are illegal to use in any manner for deer after Sept 1. I always laugh when i see Southern States selling "deer corn" in the fall. Now i realize that is has other uses than just deer but is kind of silly.

    just putting this out here to show the obsurdity of being able to carry a handgun while bowhunting only if you have a CHP, p4p at its worst.

    now it is possible he had the gun concealed but if it was concealed why was he not charged for cc w/o a permit, so i believe and the report leads you to believe that the bait hunter was open carrying.

    story below:


    Bow hunter charged with carrying pistol illegally... On the opening day of archery deer season, October 2, 2010, Conservation Police Officer Tosh Barnette was joined on his patrol by Sergeant Steve Sutphin. During the patrol, Officer Barnette noticed a vehicle parked on the side of the road where he had never seen one parked. A bow case was located in the back cargo area, prompting Officer Barnette to locate the hunter. Officer Barnette checked along a trail from the vehicle that appeared to have been recently traveled. After crossing the railroad tracks and a large patch of kudzu vines, then into the adjoining woods, Officer Barnette observed a bow hunter exiting his treestand from a distance. The bow hunter appeared to be leaving the location as the officers approached, but was stopped and a license check conducted. Officer Barnette advised the hunter that he was going to look at his treestand and asked if he was going to find anything around the treestand. The bow hunter replied he had only put out some Acorn Rage this morning near the stand. The bow hunter also had a 9mm pistol on his belt with no concealed carry permit. The bow hunter was charged with hunting over a baited area and possession of a firearm during archery season. For more information contact Lt. Rx Hill at (276) 783-4860.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    What's the code cite for this offense?

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    What's the code cite for this offense?

    TFred
    Here is the hunting reg. I'll have to look for the cod section, but it's one of my often quoted P4P's.

    http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting...tions/deer.asp
    It is unlawful to have a firearm in possession except that a muzzleloading firearm, as defined in the muzzleloader deer seasons section, may also be in possession when and where there is an overlap with a muzzleloading deer season where deer hunting with a rifle or muzzleloading firearm is permitted.

    Now here's the really interesting part. Since I am a farmer the farm is my own place of business and I can CC if I want...unless I'm Bow or ML hunting.

    I have the same CHP Certification as my wife who can carry while hunting..if she hunted and I can conceal as soon as I get out of the stand and put my bow down.

    P4P

    Wait...that's the wrong regulation.
    Last edited by peter nap; 10-27-2010 at 07:15 PM.

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    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308

    18.2-308(B)(6):

    6. Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting, as authorized by the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries, under inclement weather conditions necessitating temporary protection of his firearm from those conditions, provided that possession of a handgun while engaged in lawful hunting shall not be construed as hunting with a handgun if the person hunting is carrying a valid concealed handgun permit;

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    I brought up this subject in another thread not too long ago. I saw a bear while I was hunting a few weeks ago. You think I'm going to go in the woods with just my crossbow? If that bear attacks me and I don't have my firearm, then I'm screwed. This law sucks.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    I brought up this subject in another thread not too long ago. I saw a bear while I was hunting a few weeks ago. You think I'm going to go in the woods with just my crossbow? If that bear attacks me and I don't have my firearm, then I'm screwed. This law sucks.
    The bears don't bother me, I see them every week. Had to run one out of my haystack Saturday. Darn thing pulled a few bales out of the bottom and made a den.

    People bother me. Dog hunters especially.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I still don't get it. Is it a law, or is it a DGIF rule, or something else? Is there a list of rules one can refer to, or is a bullet on a web site all there is?

    I'm not trying to be a trouble maker, and there is no particular hurry, but if this is something that you can be charged with a crime for, I'd like to see more than just a web page. It has to come from somewhere.

    TFred

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    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...g+4VAC15-50-70

    4VAC15-50-70. Bow and arrow hunting.

    A. It shall be lawful to hunt bear during the special archery season with bow and arrow from the first Saturday in October through the Friday prior to the third Monday in November, both dates inclusive.

    B. It shall be unlawful to carry firearms while hunting with bow and arrow during the special archery seasons, except that a muzzleloading gun, as defined in 4VAC15-50-71, may be in the possession of a properly licensed muzzleloading gun hunter when and where the early special archery bear season overlaps the early special muzzleloading bear season.

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...g+4VAC15-70-60

    4VAC15-70-60. Archery hunting with bow and arrow or crossbow.

    A. Season. It shall be lawful to hunt bobcats with bow and arrow or crossbow from the first Saturday in October through October 31, both dates inclusive.

    B. Carrying firearms prohibited. It shall be unlawful to carry firearms while hunting with bow and arrow or crossbow during the special archery seasons.

    C. Use of dogs prohibited during the special archery season. It shall be unlawful to use dogs when hunting with bow and arrow or crossbow during any special archery season.


    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...+4VAC15-240-60
    4VAC15-240-60. Bow and arrow hunting.

    A. Season. It shall be lawful to hunt turkey with bow and arrow in those counties and areas open to fall turkey hunting from the first Saturday in October through the Saturday prior to the second Monday in November, both dates inclusive.

    B. Bag limit. The daily and seasonal bag limit for hunting turkey with bow and arrow shall be the same as permitted during the general turkey season in those counties and areas open to fall turkey hunting, and any turkey taken shall apply toward the total season bag limit.

    C. Carrying firearms prohibited. It shall be unlawful to carry firearms while hunting with bow and arrow during special archery season.

    ---------------

    These Regulations do not apply to handguns for those with a permit to carry a concealed handgun under Va. Code 18.2-308(B)(6).

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    penalties

    Wildlife and Fish Regulation violations are class 3 misdemeanors, unless otherwise specified.


    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+29.1-505
    Wildlife and Fish Laws (29.1-500 thru 29.1-577)
    § 29.1-505. Penalty for violation of regulations.
    It shall be a misdemeanor to violate any regulation promulgated pursuant to this title. Any person violating such a regulation shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor unless another penalty is specified.

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...00+cod+18.2-11
    § 18.2-11. Punishment for conviction of misdemeanor.
    The authorized punishments for conviction of a misdemeanor are:
    (a) For Class 1 misdemeanors, confinement in jail for not more than twelve months and a fine of not more than $2,500, either or both.
    (b) For Class 2 misdemeanors, confinement in jail for not more than six months and a fine of not more than $1,000, either or both.
    (c) For Class 3 misdemeanors, a fine of not more than $500.
    (d) For Class 4 misdemeanors, a fine of not more than $250.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Thanks for the posts. The dreaded Administrative Code...

    I gotta say... it takes a braver person than me to hunt bear with a bow and arrow, and no backup firearm.

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Thanks for the posts. The dreaded Administrative Code...

    I gotta say... it takes a braver person than me to hunt bear with a bow and arrow, and no backup firearm.

    TFred
    A bow will kill anything a firearm will TFred.
    The problem comes in when you need to kill more than one thing quickly.

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    I smell an appeal and a lawsuit. I would argue (hopefully my lawyer would, anyway) THAT Due to recent 2A court decisions, as well as VA's tradition of OC and lawful SD, that the VAC was unconstitutional, and at least the VAC was subservient to the Code of VA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    I smell an appeal and a lawsuit. I would argue (hopefully my lawyer would, anyway) THAT Due to recent 2A court decisions, as well as VA's tradition of OC and lawful SD, that the VAC was unconstitutional, and at least the VAC was subservient to the Code of VA.
    If you read prior AG opinions, they would indicate the same thing, however..DGIF claims it is a hunting regulation and they have traditionally dodged the bullet with that argument.

    The 2A rulings have been satisfied by allowing CHP's to carry. Remember, the rulings have said reasonable restrictions are OK.

    That's why I get unpleasant over P4P. No matter how good the intentions are, there are always unintended consequences for stupid or naive legislation.

    The same goes for WMA's that don't allow OC off season but were forced by the General Assembly to allow CC.

    There won't be an appeal from this fellow. He hunted over bait. That doesn't make for a good appeal.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    First,

    Unless the hunter said something to the game warden or the game warden saw him in the tree hunting with his handgun, then there will be no prima facia case. The hunter could have left the handgun at the base of the tree and only put the firearm on when he was done hunting and left the tree.

    Second,

    The constitutionality might depend on the level of scrutiny that the courts apply to the VAC code.

    Carrying handguns cannot be that bad if you can do it with a permit while bow hunting, so why is open carrying without a permit a class 3 misdemeanor?
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    There won't be an appeal from this fellow. He hunted over bait. That doesn't make for a good appeal.
    ok, I'm not a hunter, so indulge me if you will.....

    If your goal is to hunt an animal, kill an animal, and eat said animal, and you put out bait to attract that animal, wouldn't it be wise to whack the animal while its eating the bait?
    Last edited by ProShooter; 10-28-2010 at 01:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    ok, I'm not a hunter, so indulge me if you will.....

    If your goal is to hunt an animal, kill an animal, and eat said animal, and you put out bait to attract that animal, wouldn't it be wise to whack the animal while its eating the bait?
    Yes, it would be wise. But it's against the law.

    It's like that Rhett Akins song goes... "Yellow acorns, they'll land your butt in jail. This orange jumpsuit ain't worth that ol' whitetail."
    Last edited by hunter45; 10-28-2010 at 01:29 PM.

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    Baiting deer - a short history lesson request

    It would be interesting to know...

    I would suppose that when Virginia was first settled, deer were a pretty important part of the survival of the settlers, and as we expanded throughout the rest of the state, I would suspect it remained fairly important for many years.

    If successfully hunting deer is important to the survival of yourself and your family, I don't imagine anyone had much problem with baiting. The end goal was to have food, not find a way to spend Saturdays in the fall.

    So at some point, something changed to where "we" decided that baiting was not a good idea any more.

    Anybody have any knowledge of when and how this change happened? Maybe there is a similar story to the development of hunting seasons?

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    Yes, it would be wise. But it's against the law.

    It's like that Rhett Akins song goes... "Yellow acorns, they'll land your butt in jail. This orange jumpsuit ain't worth that ol' whitetail."
    And on the list of most commonly misconstrued song lyrics iiiiis...

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    It would be interesting to know...

    I would suppose that when Virginia was first settled, deer were a pretty important part of the survival of the settlers, and as we expanded throughout the rest of the state, I would suspect it remained fairly important for many years.

    If successfully hunting deer is important to the survival of yourself and your family, I don't imagine anyone had much problem with baiting. The end goal was to have food, not find a way to spend Saturdays in the fall.

    So at some point, something changed to where "we" decided that baiting was not a good idea any more.

    Anybody have any knowledge of when and how this change happened? Maybe there is a similar story to the development of hunting seasons?

    TFred

    I found The Effects of Baiting on Deer Hunting in Wisconsin that sheds some light on the concerns over widespread use of the hunting tactic.

    And History of Bait Hunting (google) has a time-line of some related articles and events.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    It would be interesting to know...

    I would suppose that when Virginia was first settled, deer were a pretty important part of the survival of the settlers, and as we expanded throughout the rest of the state, I would suspect it remained fairly important for many years.

    If successfully hunting deer is important to the survival of yourself and your family, I don't imagine anyone had much problem with baiting. The end goal was to have food, not find a way to spend Saturdays in the fall.

    So at some point, something changed to where "we" decided that baiting was not a good idea any more.

    Anybody have any knowledge of when and how this change happened? Maybe there is a similar story to the development of hunting seasons?

    TFred
    Aside from being considered unsportsmanlike by many, baiting tends to bring a lot of deer together. That is a prime way to spread things like CWD.

    That said, it is legal to feed Deer between January and September.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Aside from being considered unsportsmanlike by many, baiting tends to bring a lot of deer together. That is a prime way to spread things like CWD.

    That said, it is legal to feed Deer between January and September.
    Yes but with all the late archery seasons that run through march, the following needs to be said, though it may be legal to feed deer at certain times it is always illegal to shoot deer over feed/bait.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    A bow will kill anything a firearm will TFred.
    The problem comes in when you need to kill more than one thing quickly.
    Or miss with the first shot and need a quick follow-up :^).

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neplusultra View Post
    Or miss with the first shot and need a quick follow-up :^).
    People Miss???
    Learn something new every day.

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    Regular Member Mr H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    ok, I'm not a hunter, so indulge me if you will.....

    If your goal is to hunt an animal, kill an animal, and eat said animal, and you put out bait to attract that animal, wouldn't it be wise to whack the animal while its eating the bait?
    Seems simple enough, Jim, and it's easily confused....

    BUT...

    "Baiting" isn't "hunting".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neplusultra View Post
    Or miss with the first shot and need a quick follow-up :^).
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    People Miss???
    Learn something new every day.
    Some take the bait, but miss the point.
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