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How old do you have to be to buy a hand gun in the state of Michigan?

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
Factory bullets are made to general specifications to work well in all firearms. With reloads, one can tailor the bullets to fit their particular gun. Anything can affect accuracy and performance. Bullet weight, bullet hardness, jacket selection, powder selection, powder amount, primer type and brand, the seating depth of the round, the case diameter and length all contribute to how the bullets function both in the gun, in flight, and on target.

Anyone who wants to get the most out of their guns will reload, whether it be a sniper, a world record shooter, a serious hunter, or competition shooters. Reloading for self defense makes sense. Groups in a 1911 for instance, can be reduced by inches at distances of only several yards, recoil, mussle flash, smoke, and overpenetration are reduced, then a safer round has been made. Loading a heavy round at maximum or over maximum pressures would almost certainly result in a decrease in accuracy, and possible damage to the gun, the shooter, and bystanders.

Lastly, a reloader spends much more time studying the ins and outs of things gun related, working on and test firing his/her loads, and because of the cost savings involved, typically becomes a much better shot than your average shooter. More rangetime = better shooter.
 

Big Gay Al

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
1,944
Location
Mason, Michigan, USA
Statistics have shown, that most of your SD gunfights are going to be within 0 to 15 feet.
I'm relatively sure that the "victim" didn't wait any longer than they had to, before pulling their weapon. But there's the problem of surprise. Which is why we need to be aware of the situation around us at all times. If you let a guy with a knife get within 20 feet, you're likely gonna be hurting.
 

CharleyMarbles

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
151
Location
Clio, Michigan, USA
Frankly, if I wait for a BG to get within 5 feet before I fire, I'm committing suicide. Shame on me.

It was just a random number. The point was that with ferensic science playing a far greater role in the court room than ever, The more items you can control that meet EVIDENTURAY STANDARDS the better you will fare in the court room. That being said if you are useing handloads for SD you forfit that as they WILL NOT allow your loading notes as evidance. and they WILL NOT test fire the remaing rounds in the gun to get the data that could be the deciding factor in whether or not your shoot was justified. I am of the oppinion that any slight advantage you gain from a hand load over factory is not significant enuff to risk any possible loss of evidance that could help me in the court room.

This is my oppinion and I welcome any coments that might change it but please don't flame me if you disagree as I would never force you to accept it as yours.
 

Rasher

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Messages
88
Location
Dearborn Heights MI, ,
These are serious questions... there is no sarcasm or anything intended. And I'm saying that upfront so there is no misunderstanding.

"What, exactly, is/are the benefits in actual performance... be that recoil control, accuracy, bullet performance after impact, or whatever, between factory and hand reload ammo under the actual circumstances/dynamics of a self defense scenario? And, if there are benefits are those benefits large enough/significant enough to actually make a difference in a for real situation?"

And....

"Is the reloading thing more of a personal preference than an actual real world advantage?"

Please remember.... I'm asking these questions in all seriousness!!!!

I am a handloader myself(rifle/shotgun no pistol yet), and as others have stated you can play around with bullets and charges to see what YOUR gun likes, it would blow your mind how different guns like different loads even within the same model, personally I think it has to do with the shooter as much as the gun but thats me. And I tend to load my shells to max specs. both brass and shotshell but again thats just me.
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
I'm not going to flame you Charlie, your points are valid, but what makes you so sure that they wouldn't allow your notes, or want to do ballistics on your loads? Perhaps they would, trying to gain evidence against you, or trying to prove that you were set to make the most deadly rounds possible to strengthen their case?

Your side has a right to present evidence as well.
 

Big Gay Al

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
1,944
Location
Mason, Michigan, USA
It was just a random number. The point was that with ferensic science playing a far greater role in the court room than ever, The more items you can control that meet EVIDENTURAY STANDARDS the better you will fare in the court room. That being said if you are useing handloads for SD you forfit that as they WILL NOT allow your loading notes as evidance. and they WILL NOT test fire the remaing rounds in the gun to get the data that could be the deciding factor in whether or not your shoot was justified. I am of the oppinion that any slight advantage you gain from a hand load over factory is not significant enuff to risk any possible loss of evidance that could help me in the court room.

This is my oppinion and I welcome any coments that might change it but please don't flame me if you disagree as I would never force you to accept it as yours.
Speaking for myself, all I use is factory ammo. Most of the firearms today have statements in their warranties that say using reloads will void those warranties. And I'd rather not, just in case. :)
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
Factory bullets are made to general specifications to work well in all firearms. With reloads, one can tailor the bullets to fit their particular gun. Anything can affect accuracy and performance. Bullet weight, bullet hardness, jacket selection, powder selection, powder amount, primer type and brand, the seating depth of the round, the case diameter and length all contribute to how the bullets function both in the gun, in flight, and on target.

Anyone who wants to get the most out of their guns will reload, whether it be a sniper, a world record shooter, a serious hunter, or competition shooters. Reloading for self defense makes sense. Groups in a 1911 for instance, can be reduced by inches at distances of only several yards, recoil, mussle flash, smoke, and overpenetration are reduced, then a safer round has been made. Loading a heavy round at maximum or over maximum pressures would almost certainly result in a decrease in accuracy, and possible damage to the gun, the shooter, and bystanders.

Lastly, a reloader spends much more time studying the ins and outs of things gun related, working on and test firing his/her loads, and because of the cost savings involved, typically becomes a much better shot than your average shooter. More rangetime = better shooter.

Statistics have shown, that most of your SD gunfights are going to be within 0 to 15 feet.

I'm relatively sure that the "victim" didn't wait any longer than they had to, before pulling their weapon. But there's the problem of surprise. Which is why we need to be aware of the situation around us at all times. If you let a guy with a knife get within 20 feet, you're likely gonna be hurting.

I am a handloader myself(rifle/shotgun no pistol yet), and as others have stated you can play around with bullets and charges to see what YOUR gun likes, it would blow your mind how different guns like different loads even within the same model, personally I think it has to do with the shooter as much as the gun but thats me. And I tend to load my shells to max specs. both brass and shotshell but again thats just me.

Ok... please everyone remember I am NOT trying to be a jerk... as I offer my sincere opinion about this reloading thing in reference to self defense.. and only in reference to self defense.

It is my considered opinion (I did look into this fairly well a while back) that within the parameters of a real life self defense situation the small... and they really are small... differences in recoil, reliability, and accuracy, performance between factory ammo and reloads is not worth even talking about. I believe it would be far more advantageous to use the time spent reloading... practicing as realistic self defense scenarios as possible with the emphasis on actually hitting the target regardless of the gun/ammo used.

Now... for those who really love to reload... have at it because there are benefits to matching ammo to gun for hunting or target shooting. But for self defense that happens up close, frantic, unpredictable, and filled with chaotic movement.... the ammo isn't the most important factor... shot placement is.

With all that in mind it is also my opinion that there are so many variables stirred into the courtroom that, considering the less than stellar advantages of reloads for self defense, adding reloads into the things a prosecutor will use against a shooter just isn't worth it.
 

Big Gay Al

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
1,944
Location
Mason, Michigan, USA
Ok, just to get back on topic, you have to 18 to legally buy a handgun in Michigan. Of course, you can only do so via private sale, or have one gifted to you. You have to be 21 to buy one via FFL dealer. And you still need a permit to purchase and have the pistol registered in your name.
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
and they really are small... differences in recoil, reliability, and accuracy, performance between factory ammo and reloads is not worth even talking about.



Have you even shot reloads?



I believe it would be far more advantageous to use the time spent reloading... practicing as realistic self defense scenarios as possible with the emphasis on actually hitting the target regardless of the gun/ammo used.


Hence the advantages in reloading



Now... for those who really love to reload... have at it because there are benefits to matching ammo to gun for hunting or target shooting. But for self defense that happens up close, frantic, unpredictable, and filled with chaotic movement.... the ammo isn't the most important factor... shot placement is.


Hence the advantages in reloading



With all that in mind it is also my opinion that there are so many variables stirred into the courtroom that, considering the less than stellar advantages of reloads for self defense, adding reloads into the things a prosecutor will use against a shooter just isn't worth it.


If you lose your case, as thoroughly as these cases are going to be gone through, it isnt the bullet, its you, politics, or the lawyer.

Surviving a gunfight is about shot placement, superior firepower, superior equipment, and knowing when and how to make the shot.
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
I can see already that the issue of reloads vs factory ammo is going to be about the same as the ever present caliber wars that go on online... so... since I personally don't care who uses what I'll pass on this ....
 

Haman J.T.

New member
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
1,245
Location
, ,
It was just a random number. The point was that with ferensic science playing a far greater role in the court room than ever, The more items you can control that meet EVIDENTURAY STANDARDS the better you will fare in the court room. That being said if you are useing handloads for SD you forfit that as they WILL NOT allow your loading notes as evidance. and they WILL NOT test fire the remaing rounds in the gun to get the data that could be the deciding factor in whether or not your shoot was justified. I am of the oppinion that any slight advantage you gain from a hand load over factory is not significant enuff to risk any possible loss of evidance that could help me in the court room.

This is my oppinion and I welcome any coments that might change it but please don't flame me if you disagree as I would never force you to accept it as yours.
I have listened to Massad and agree with his wisdom on this.He knows how anti-gun DA's in anti-gun states work.They will use anything no matter how insane or rediculous to put their elitist views thru!
 

CharleyMarbles

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
151
Location
Clio, Michigan, USA
I'm not going to flame you Charlie, your points are valid, but what makes you so sure that they wouldn't allow your notes, or want to do ballistics on your loads? Perhaps they would, trying to gain evidence against you, or trying to prove that you were set to make the most deadly rounds possible to strengthen their case?

Your side has a right to present evidence as well.

Your note's are hearsay as far as the court is concerned much like your diary can't be used to show you were someplace other than the scene of the crime. As you are the author of the notes you alone have the ability to put in whatever data you want. As for testing the remaining rounds in the gun, to test them you have to fire them there by destroying them as evidance now this can be brought up by either side but if testing them will strengthen your case the DA will definatly speak up and if it could hurt your case YOUR attourny should either way chances of it being allowed are slim and none. Fact is if I have to chose who I am going to listen to I have to go with the experiance and I belive Mr.Ayoob has that in spades versus any of us who do not spend our careers as an expert witness concerning Firearms and self defence.
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
Ayoob is an expert indeed. Personally, I would not carry a load weak enough to cause distance questions, I still want enough force behind the bullet to push it through stuff if I need it to. One reason I carry FMJ as well as JHP. For now anyways, I still carry Winchester PDX-1 because I haven't found a JHP that's better, and available to the reloader. The only thing that I might do, is to take their bullet, powder, and primer, and load them into a case tailored to my gun, and trimmed for accuracy, but that wouldn't change enough to make a difference in court. I have seen Remington Golden Sabers for reloading once, but I had too many fail to feed issues, and jacket separation on a couple test rounds. The brass HP needs a pretty hot load to open it up properly.
 
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