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Thread: Recent Seattle shooting. "We need more police"

  1. #1
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    Recent Seattle shooting. "We need more police"

    http://www.kirotv.com/video/25544594/index.html

    The news broadcasters emphasize about citizen's safety while downtown Seattle. Two of those interviewed claimed that they don't feel safe in the area, and mention how there is not enough police protection.

    My question is, whatever happened to people taking responsibility for their own safety and security, rather than completely relying on protection from others? There was not one mention in that video of citizens arming themselves - simply increasing police presence.

    "Our children grow to expect from the government what we once did for ourselves."

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    I agree with your post. Some people have given up their independence and self reliance because they have been taught that the government will do it for them and will do it better than they can do it for themselves. People have been brainwashed and they are not even aware that it's happened.

    Good luck to them with the increased police prescence that they want. Seattle PD has a hiring freeze right now and probably will have for the forseeable future.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


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    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
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    I used to work right near there (at 2nd and Lenora) and always carried in the area.

    It's even worse now.

    Most of the condo folks there have never been in a position of having to fend for themselves, or protect themselves, and they really need to be educated on that.

    They truly are frightened sheep, but they don't know better.
    No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: The officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
    I used to work right near there (at 2nd and Lenora) and always carried in the area.

    It's even worse now.

    Most of the condo folks there have never been in a position of having to fend for themselves, or protect themselves, and they really need to be educated on that.

    They truly are frightened sheep, but they don't know better.
    How in the world did we get to this state of affairs, Tomas? I remember as a little girl how independent everyone was. I may be wrong, but people then didn't depend on the government doing everything for them and holding their hand. I know it didn't happen overnight but gradually. In the event of an emergency those people won't have a clue what to do. Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh, cry, or scream!
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


    Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,

    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member Bob Warden's Avatar
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    & police don't really provide "protection!"

    Police enforce laws, they don't and can't preempt crime! The required ratio of cops to groups of one or more private citizens would need to be nearly 1 to 1 to actually provide "protection." Seattle would need at least a quarter of a million police officers, and I, for one, don't see that happening (understatement smirk on face!).

    There are only 2 real options to best ensure personal safety: hire a full-time competent armed body guard, or arm yourself and make yourself competent.
    Meet the new boss; same as the old boss. -The Who

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Warden View Post
    Police enforce laws, they don't and can't preempt crime! The required ratio of cops to groups of one or more private citizens would need to be nearly 1 to 1 to actually provide "protection." Seattle would need at least a quarter of a million police officers, and I, for one, don't see that happening (understatement smirk on face!).

    There are only 2 real options to best ensure personal safety: hire a full-time competent armed body guard, or arm yourself and make yourself competent.

    Bob, I may be wrong, but I believe that the people in Tomas's post want more police PRESCENCE . I don't believe they were asking for protection per se, just a visible prescence to deter crime.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


    Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,

    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member Bob Warden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    Bob, I may be wrong, but I believe that the people in Tomas's post want more police PRESCENCE . I don't believe they were asking for protection per se, just a visible prescence to deter crime.
    You're right, I kind of overstated it a bit! But even real deterence would probably require doubling or tripling the police force, which will never happen.
    Meet the new boss; same as the old boss. -The Who

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    Workman calls B.S. on that one

    Yet another problem with a DOC-supervised felon
    Every time one of these characters decides to attack or kill another citizen, and particularly if that person is a civilian law enforcement officer, the fallout inevitably encompasses the firearms community. Gun prohibitionists have concluded that the way to disarm criminals is to take guns away from their law-abiding would-be victims. That’s the kind of logic that comes straight off the stable floor, if you get my drift.

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...pervised-felon

    Or try this:

    http://tinyurl.com/246hvqf

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    Too many people here either don't know the laws concerning firearms or firmly believe ONLY the police are allowed to possess them. Ignorance is abound in such an educated populace.
    A while back, I was having a conversation with one of my cashiers about OC/CC and handguns in general. A customer chimed in saying that police had 'special certificates' that allowed them to OC. Even the cashier thought it may be legal, but not a good idea to practice. Both thought I would get my ass beat (or worse) by the police if i ever actually OCed.

    Such sheep are easily herded.

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    "Perhaps the question that should be posed to the public is this: Would you feel safer drinking coffee in a Starbucks knowing there are legally-armed citizens at the next table, or walking down the street knowing that a DOC-supervised felon with nothing to lose may be walking up behind you with an illegally-carried gun and the worst of intentions?"

    That is an awesome line Dave.
    Unfortunately, hoplophobic Seattleites would put their own twist on it:
    "I don't want YOU carrying a gun into a Starbucks because guns should only be in the hands of trained law enforcement officers and the military. Your fantasy scenario of felons running rampant on the street is typical NRA propaganda. This shooting downtown only proves that guns and drugs are the problem."

    These people will continue to retreat to their 'safe zones' not realizing that eventually they will be unable to safely leave their own home. Then what will they do when the danger is at their front door? Pray? After Obama made it clear how he feels about people who 'cling to their guns and religion'?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattleman View Post
    "Perhaps the question that should be posed to the public is this: Would you feel safer drinking coffee in a Starbucks knowing there are legally-armed citizens at the next table, or walking down the street knowing that a DOC-supervised felon with nothing to lose may be walking up behind you with an illegally-carried gun and the worst of intentions?"

    That is an awesome line Dave.
    Unfortunately, hoplophobic Seattleites would put their own twist on it:
    "I don't want YOU carrying a gun into a Starbucks because guns should only be in the hands of trained law enforcement officers and the military. Your fantasy scenario of felons running rampant on the street is typical NRA propaganda. This shooting downtown only proves that guns and drugs are the problem."

    These people will continue to retreat to their 'safe zones' not realizing that eventually they will be unable to safely leave their own home. Then what will they do when the danger is at their front door? Pray? After Obama made it clear how he feels about people who 'cling to their guns and religion'?
    Just take a look at whats going on in Mexico the last few days, the bad guys are shooting up law enforcement, law enforcement are all quiting and the people are unarmed for the most part. Today the bad guys started shooting up the unarmed folks on their way to work. If the gun control folks get their way thats what will happen to us.

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    Let me make sure I understand this.

    An American misleadia outlet ran a story about how scared everyone was "one day after" a shooting. And, these voices of the community, whose opinion is sufficiently important to air, are people whose sense of personal responsibility is so low they won't aquire the means to protect themselves. And, their morals are so low, they are willing, even desiring, that other people (cops) risk their own lives to protect them, instead.

    And, the misleadia outlet heaved in a suggestive question about parole/probation supervision breaking down.

    And, this is somehow all credible, just a news outlet doing its level best to genuinely fulfill its role in society.

    Do I got that straight?

    PS: I loved the guy from Houston.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    just a visible prescence to deter crime.
    How many here remember when, in the downtown city streets of city's like Seattle, Police Officers actually walked a beat? Often in pairs but sometimes singly. When I was a kid they carried a revolver, nightstick, and handcuffs. They had to use call boxes to summon help or report problems. Today, it seems like most are now in cars, with AC on and windows up, driving through the Downtown streets on their way somewhere else. Yes, I do see some on bicycles from time to time but rarely see an officer "walking a beat".

    When I was a kid growing up in a city of 35,000 people, the police officers spent lots of time walking. They knew every businessman on their beat as well as those that were causing most of the problems. Some were taken care of with a firm "you need to find somewhere else" and others got a "lump or two" to encourage them to move on. When a problem started, usually in front of a local bar, they were close enough to stop it before things got out of hand.

    Will we ever see that again? Probably not. Unless cities like Seattle return to the old "beat cop" days and have officers on the street, visible, at hours most likely to have problems, it will merely be a case of them showing up to write the report. That makes it even more important that people provide for their own safety and security.


    BTW, we all see the "costs" of a police officer listed when budget crisis occurs. It naturally includes the necessary equipment and training to outfit and prepare them for the street. However, a large part of that "figure" always seems to include a car. If officers were put out on the "beat" without the need for a car and related equipment, there would be a savings. According to a report from 2007 a fully equipped (with special vehicle options, radio, camera, MDT, lights) Crown Victoria was just under $40,000. That's just about 1/3 of the annual costs often quoted
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    According to a report from 2007 a fully equipped (with special vehicle options, radio, camera, MDT, lights) Crown Victoria was just under $40,000. That's just about 1/3 of the annual costs often quoted
    Correct. I have outfitted cruisers that cost over $50k with all equipment, although the avg is probably closer to $30k....

    Seattle PD LEASES its cars, the 'company' outfits and maintains them..

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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    Correct. I have outfitted cruisers that cost over $50k with all equipment, although the avg is probably closer to $30k....

    Seattle PD LEASES its cars, the 'company' outfits and maintains them..
    Lease or purchase, the car is still a cost. More officers on foot, with radios, in the Downtown area where there are crowds might just control some of the problems.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Statistically more cops = more crime. Just another way at looking at the statistics.

    Seriously, Like Warden pointed out, they can not deter crime.

    Here is another fact, in bad (dare I say poorer) neighborhoods, cops don't patrol as much as they do in better (wealthier) neighborhoods, and the majority of crimes happen in the bad neighborhoods.

    So they cry for and support an illusion of safety because the people who actually have a voice will see more and feel safer in neighborhoods that are already statistically safer.

    When will people get it, cops are mostly for clean up and taking reports after, the crime has happened. Also the majority of "solved" crimes are because civilians "solved" them, yet the police get the credit, not the person who gave the LEA the information.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post


    Statistically more cops = more crime. Just another way at looking at the statistics.

    Your statement is somewhat like saying that "Flies cause Garbage".

    I am of the position that Police Officers in the right place, at the right time, CAN deter. Our problem today is that too few are spread too thin and with the wrong focus.

    Maybe it's time to reassign their priorities. Rather than trying to enforce simple traffic laws like speeding and failure to stop at intersections, replace the sworn officer that costs the department in the realm of $100k per year with the technology that works 24/7 and you don't have to pay it overtime?

    Re-evaluate how many "Supervisors" are needed at desks to manage forces in the field. Decide as a Society what are crimes and what are inconveniences. Send the Police out to deter crime.

    Ever wonder why it takes a Commissioned Police Officer to investigate a vehicle accident? In other countries a "technician" is used to fill out the reports, draw the diagrams, and take the pictures. No gun, no fancy patrol car capable of 150MPH pursuits, just someone that can do the job.
    Last edited by amlevin; 10-30-2010 at 12:45 PM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Your statement is somewhat like saying that "Flies cause Garbage".

    I am of the position that Police Officers in the right place, at the right time, CAN deter. Our problem today is that too few are spread too thin and with the wrong focus.

    Re-evaluate how many "Supervisors" are needed at desks to manage forces in the field. Decide as a Society what are crimes and what are inconveniences. Send the Police out to deter crime.
    Historically, police are very effective at deterring crime in their immediate presence/line-of-sight. Not many folks get beat/shot/stabbed/robbed right in front of a cop. That means a cop every 50 or so yards to completely deter crime. Which is probably exactly what these lefties want.

    Maybe it's time to reassign their priorities. Rather than trying to enforce simple traffic laws like speeding and failure to stop at intersections, replace the sworn officer that costs the department in the realm of $100k per year with the technology that works 24/7 and you don't have to pay it overtime?
    Personally I love the idea... but people (specially around here ) bitch enough about red light cameras & photoradar, can you imagine the collective whine if this were brought up? O for the advent of the computer-driven car

    Ever wonder why it takes a Commissioned Police Officer to investigate a vehicle accident? In other countries a "technician" is used to fill out the reports, draw the diagrams, and take the pictures. No gun, no fancy patrol car capable of 150MPH pursuits, just someone that can do the job.
    Interesting... didn't know that, can you cite? Sounds similar to those DOT "incident response" trucks I see. Although, in this society a dedicated "technician" would probably cost just as much, if not more than a LEO. New gov't bureaucracy, new czar, new union, yadda yadda yadda Not saying it's a bad idea intrinsically tho
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Historically, police are very effective at deterring crime in their immediate presence/line-of-sight. Not many folks get beat/shot/stabbed/robbed right in front of a cop. That means a cop every 50 or so yards to completely deter crime. Which is probably exactly what these lefties want.



    Personally I love the idea... but people (specially around here ) bitch enough about red light cameras & photoradar, can you imagine the collective whine if this were brought up? O for the advent of the computer-driven car


    Interesting... didn't know that, can you cite? Sounds similar to those DOT "incident response" trucks I see. Although, in this society a dedicated "technician" would probably cost just as much, if not more than a LEO. New gov't bureaucracy, new czar, new union, yadda yadda yadda Not saying it's a bad idea intrinsically tho
    Here is a reason I disagree with using technology in the manner prescribed. It is also the underlying reason that a photo ticket is not a crime but a 'parking' ticket.

    Amendment VI

    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.
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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Here is a reason I disagree with using technology in the manner prescribed. It is also the underlying reason that a photo ticket is not a crime but a 'parking' ticket.

    Amendment VI
    So you don't consider a photo or video of the alleged offense to be "witness testimony" of a sort, that one is confronted with? \


    (oy here we go again)
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    So you don't consider a photo or video of the alleged offense to be "witness testimony" of a sort, that one is confronted with? \


    (oy here we go again)
    It is not a 'witness' and your comment "of a sort" and the courts response has also agreed. It is why the law pertaining to red light/photo tickets are written the way they are. They are not 'criminal' but administrative in nature. However, continuing to use cameras in an expanding role will cause issues with amendment VI.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    It is not a 'witness' and your comment "of a sort" and the courts response has also agreed. It is why the law pertaining to red light/photo tickets are written the way they are. They are not 'criminal' but administrative in nature. However, continuing to use cameras in an expanding role will cause issues with amendment VI.
    Ok, so then what's your solution? I don't mean that to be facetious, I honestly want to know. The rampantness of red light running, et al, demonstrates people's lack of responsibility to safely drive. How do you propose that be changed? I just don't see any other way to combat the threat, other than a motorcycle cop at every intersection. One cannot legislate responsibility, and one who does not want to learn cannot be taught.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Ok, so then what's your solution? I don't mean that to be facetious, I honestly want to know. The rampantness of red light running, et al, demonstrates people's lack of responsibility to safely drive. How do you propose that be changed? I just don't see any other way to combat the threat, other than a motorcycle cop at every intersection. One cannot legislate responsibility, and one who does not want to learn cannot be taught.
    I do not think that $124 tickets for slowly rolling around a right hand turn is the correct fix. And that is a huge majority of the tickets assigned, NOT actual running of an intersection. I received one of these (I beat the ticket) and watched in court that morning a dozen similar videos. Every single person slowed significantly (less than 5mph) before making the turn. Some even stopped past the 'white line' and then turned.

    When an collision occurs AND the red light was run (use camera's in this instance as one piece of evidence) THEN increase the penalties against the offender. Make the penalties harsher and more effective.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post


    Interesting... didn't know that, can you cite? Sounds similar to those DOT "incident response" trucks I see. Although, in this society a dedicated "technician" would probably cost just as much, if not more than a LEO. New gov't bureaucracy, new czar, new union, yadda yadda yadda Not saying it's a bad idea intrinsically tho
    Here in Washington, those "Incident Response Trucks" are there to provide support for the LEO's that investigate the accident. They provide traffic control, remove vehicles from traffic lanes if possible, provide limited Hazmat response with absorbents, damming material, etc. The accidents are investigated by WSP, Sheriff's, or City Police.

    Go to the East Coast and Larger cities use personnel similar to "Meter Maids" to investigate accidents. If there is an arrest to be made due to alcohol, etc, then a sworn officer is used but the "hours long paperwork, etc." is done by them and they make a salary/wage more comparable to an administrative office worker. Training requirements are far lessas they don't need to be trained in pursuit driving, firearms, hand-hand combat, and Criminal Law. Physical requirements are reduced as well. Ever been to San Francisco and seen the old 3-Wheel Harley's? That was one of their tasks, accidents and traffic.

    Go to European Countries and you'll find the same practice. I saw it in GB and Germany. For some reason, it appears to be ingrained in our society that it takes a Police Officer to investigate a traffic accident. The biggest beneficiaries of a traffic accident investigation seem to be Insurance Companies. Let them fund it and take it away from the waste of a Government agency entirely.
    Last edited by amlevin; 10-30-2010 at 04:40 PM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Here in Washington, those "Incident Response Trucks" are there to provide support for the LEO's that investigate the accident. They provide traffic control, remove vehicles from traffic lanes if possible, provide limited Hazmat response with absorbents, damming material, etc. The accidents are investigated by WSP, Sheriff's, or City Police.

    Go to the East Coast and Larger cities use personnel similar to "Meter Maids" to investigate accidents. If there is an arrest to be made due to alcohol, etc, then a sworn officer is used but the "hours long paperwork, etc." is done by them and they make a salary/wage more comparable to an administrative office worker. Training requirements are far lessas they don't need to be trained in pursuit driving, firearms, hand-hand combat, and Criminal Law. Physical requirements are reduced as well. Ever been to San Francisco and seen the old 3-Wheel Harley's? That was one of their tasks, accidents and traffic.

    Go to European Countries and you'll find the same practice. I saw it in GB and Germany. For some reason, it appears to be ingrained in our society that it takes a Police Officer to investigate a traffic accident. The biggest beneficiaries of a traffic accident investigation seem to be Insurance Companies. Let them fund it and take it away from the waste of a Government agency entirely.
    LOL No I have not been to San Forsakenso! I would sooner take a leisurely stroll beneath Shayol Ghul its self than set foot within a hundred miles of that pit of evil.

    The accident response techs do seem like a good idea tho, with all the budget issues around here you'd think someone would have suggested it by now. If the east cost libs do it, the Seattle libs should be all over the idea
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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