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Thread: Illinois residents can open carry in Michigan...

  1. #1
    Regular Member Hatchet's Avatar
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    Exclamation Illinois residents can open carry in Michigan...

    i was asked to post this by a friend of mine on here.

    I was sent a exert on new MI open carry laws in which rule 1 meets the technical qualification of our FOID card, but i wanted a direct quote from the state police. So i sent out this e-mail.

    >>> <MSPWeb@michigan.gov> 10/27/2010 3:29 PM >>>
    a friend of mine in MI had just sent me this exert from
    the state law and i have a question about it.

    Possession of pistols by non-residents
    MCL 28.432 makes it legal for non-residents of Michigan who hold valid
    CPLs issued by another state to possess a non-concealed pistol in
    Michigan without complying with MichiganÆs pisto...l registration
    requirements. Additionally, MCL 28.422 exempts residents of other states
    from MichiganÆs pistol registration requirements therefore, allowing
    them to possess a pistol in Michigan, if all of the following
    requirements are met:

    1. The person is licensed by his or her state of residence to purchase,
    transport, or carry a pistol,

    2. The person is in possession of the license while in Michigan,
    3. The person owns the pistol possessed in Michigan,
    4. The person possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as defined in
    MCL 750.231a, and
    5. The person is in Michigan less than 180 days and does not intend to
    establish residency here.

    A non-resident must present the license issued by his or her state of
    residence to a police officer upon demand. Failure to do so is a 90-day
    misdemeanor. When transporting a firearm in Michigan, non-residents must
    transport pistols in compliance with MCL 750.231a (discussed above in
    the Transporting Firearms section), unless they have a concealed pistol
    license issued by their state of residence.
    In Illinois we don't have any kind of carry licenses. We do have a
    FOID(Firearm Owners ID) which we need to buy and transport firearms
    legally. Would the FOID card from Illinois meet the legal requirements,
    for open carry, in Michigan for non-residents as stated by rule one
    above?

    Thank you,
    Joe

    The response i received today...

    Mr. ,

    In Michigan, non-residents may possess (not concealed) a pistol in
    Michigan if they are licensed by their state of residence to purchase,
    carry, or transport a pistol, MCL 28.422. As a result, an Illinois
    resident can possess a pistol in Michigan if they have an Illinois
    Firearm Owner's Identification Card (FOID Card). In order to lawfully
    do so, the person must possess their FOID Card while in Michigan,
    present it to a police officer upon demand, possess the pistol only for
    lawful purposes, and they must be the owner of the pistol.

    You do not have a license to carry a concealed pistol, therefore, you
    must carry the pistol visible and non-concealed. Michigan has statutes
    that prohibit possession of a firearm in certain areas, MCL 750.234d and
    MCL 750.237a. The above list is not intended to be an exhaustive list
    of the premises upon which possession of a firearm is prohibited. I
    recommend that you research Michigan laws regarding the areas you will
    be visiting.

    Additionally, when transporting a pistol in Michigan, it must be
    unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the
    trunk of a vehicle or if no trunk, not readily accessible to the
    occupants of the vehicle, MCL 750.231a. Per Michigan law, a pistol
    carried in the interior of a vehicle is always considered concealed, MCL
    750.227.

    The following are links to the above mentioned statutes for your
    review:

    MCL 28.422
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(cuh...mcl-28-422.pdf


    MCL 750.231a
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(cuh...l-750-231a.pdf


    MCL 750.234d
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(cuh...l-750-234d.pdf


    MCL 750.237a
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(emt...l-750-237a.pdf


    MCL 750.227
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(emt...cl-750-227.pdf


    Sincerely,

    Sergeant Aimee Maike
    Training and Standards Division
    Michigan State Police
    7426 N. Canal Road
    Lansing, MI 48913
    (517) 636-6031
    So with the FOID card we can open carry in Michigan. No automobile carry is allowed with out a CC license.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Hatchet's Avatar
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    a little bit more info i received, in regards to transporting on a motorcycle...

    Mr. ,

    Unfortunately, Michigan law does not provide guidance on how to legally
    transport a pistol while traveling on a motorcycle. MCL 750.231a states
    if the motor vehicle (which includes a motorcycle) does not have a
    trunk, the pistol must be unloaded, in a closed case designed for the
    storage of firearms, and not readily accessible to the occupants. There
    are various arguments regarding whether or not a person could transport
    a pistol in or on a motorcycle and have it " not readily accessible to
    the occupant." I am not aware of any Michigan appellate court decisions
    regarding this issue. In instances such as this where the legality is
    not certain, I must recommend that you consult the advise of private
    legal counsel regarding this issue.

    Sincerely,

    Sergeant Aimee Maike
    Training and Standards Division
    Michigan State Police
    7426 N. Canal Road
    Lansing, MI 48913
    (517) 636-6031

  3. #3
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    As a resident of a neighboring state, one which does not issue permits to exercise a right, I'm wondering what to do if I visit Michigan? I have permits from 3 states (which I know MI won't recognize), but how do they deal with residents of Wisconsin, Arizona, & Vermont? (Alaska will issue a permit for the purposes of reciprocity, but their citizens don't need it to exercise their rights.) Could you PM me Ms. Maike's email? Or maybe I'll just call her tomorrow.

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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    S-o-l

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    As a resident of a neighboring state, one which does not issue permits to exercise a right, I'm wondering what to do if I visit Michigan? I have permits from 3 states (which I know MI won't recognize), but how do they deal with residents of Wisconsin, Arizona, & Vermont? (Alaska will issue a permit for the purposes of reciprocity, but their citizens don't need it to exercise their rights.) Could you PM me Ms. Maike's email? Or maybe I'll just call her tomorrow.
    VT & WI residents can not OC in MI. All other states at least issue or offer the option of a license or permit for interstate recognition.

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    With a CC license from any state you can OC in MI. You can not CC if the permit is not from your state of residence. You are also exempt from pistol free zones. Like someone with an IL FOID you cannot car carry.

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    Regular Member Hatchet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmaxanarchist View Post
    With a CC license from any state you can OC in MI. You can not CC if the permit is not from your state of residence. You are also exempt from pistol free zones. Like someone with an IL FOID you cannot car carry.
    no to open carry it has to be from your state of residence...

    1. The person is licensed by his or her state of residence to purchase,
    transport, or carry a pistol,

  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hatchet View Post
    no to open carry it has to be from your state of residence...

    1. The person is licensed by his or her state of residence to purchase,
    transport, or carry a pistol,
    IL can OC in MI. Why because you have a FOID card. If I did not have a non-resident carry permit, I would not be able to carry at all in MI. However, since I have my UT non-resident permit, I can only OC there, not CC since the permit is not issued from MY state. If you are driving through MI, you can transport your firearms under federal law.

    http://chris.cc/firearmstransport.htm
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    IL can OC in MI. Why because you have a FOID card. If I did not have a non-resident carry permit, I would not be able to carry at all in MI. However, since I have my UT non-resident permit, I can only OC there, not CC since the permit is not issued from MY state. If you are driving through MI, you can transport your firearms under federal law.

    http://chris.cc/firearmstransport.htm
    This is correct... Michigan law (MCL 28.422) states that possession of a Pistol in Michigan requires a License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol, which is what we get to buy and then register a pistol. The state police have given ONLY 1 of the exceptions to this: a resident license to conceal from another state (this is listed in MCL 28.422). With this license, you would be able to conceal (if you are resident of the state which issued the license), as Mich recognizes all state concealed licenses.

    However, there is ANOTHER exemption from the aforementioned registration process, see MCL 28.432. This section exempts "(f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state" (There are other exemptions there, too.)

    Were I to travel to Michigan under EITHER exemption, I would make very sure that I also carry a copy of the MCL with my permit. Other than that, there shouldn't be any problems. In fact, Michigan allows the OC of pistols in almost all of the places listed as "no (concealed) carry zones" for CPL holders if the person has a resident permit from their home state. If you have a non-resident permit, I would not suggest OCing any of the places listed as no carry zones.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 11-04-2010 at 11:17 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hatchet View Post
    ahhh ok i read it wrong then i guess... i stand corrected... so i would be able to with my utah and florida CC licenses to?




    i know the CC has to be from ur state of residence... and the rule 1 i listed was for there open carry law that read from your state of residence...

    yep... like I said, I would carry a copy of the law with me. Most LEOS would probably think that the only way to carry at all in Michigan is with a resident permit from another state. What bothers me most, though, is that Michigan has no right to determine the resident status of out-of-state individuals. That should be left up to the state that issues the permit, not Michigan.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 11-05-2010 at 02:58 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    In fact, Michigan allows the OC of pistols in almost all of the places listed as "no (concealed) carry zones" for CPL holders if the person has a resident permit from their home state. If you have a non-resident permit, I would not suggest OCing any of the places listed as no carry zones.
    Someone with a non-resident permit can OC in all the no carry zones.

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as
    misdemeanor; penalty.
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    Notice it does not mention residency.

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    What are the transport laws in Michigan. Since open carry in a vehicle is not allowed, I'm hoping they might be similar to Illinois, encased and unloaded, ammo can be in the case but not in the firearm. I expect it may be different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by junglebob View Post
    What are the transport laws in Michigan. Since open carry in a vehicle is not allowed, I'm hoping they might be similar to Illinois, encased and unloaded, ammo can be in the case but not in the firearm. I expect it may be different.
    From 750.231a:
    (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of
    the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a
    closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.
    (e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of
    the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a
    closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily
    accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
    (b) "Lawful purpose" includes the following:
    (i) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.
    (ii) While transporting a pistol en route to or from his or her home or place of business and place of repair.
    (iii) While moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.
    (iv) While transporting a licensed pistol en route to or from a law enforcement agency or for the purpose of
    having a law enforcement official take possession of the weapon.
    (v) While en route to or from his or her abode or place of business and a gun show or places of purchase or
    sale.
    (vi) While en route to or from his or her abode to a public shooting facility or public land where discharge
    of firearms is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.
    (vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used
    as is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

    These laws apply to both Michigan residents who don't have a CPL and vistors who have a non-resident cc permit or a FOID card or something like it.

    So, the answer is unloaded and encased and in trunk if you have one otherwise it has to be inaccessible as possible.

    I have heard that some LEOs have interpreted exemption i through vi as the only lawful purpose to transport. However Michigan open carriers have interpreted exemption vii to allow leaving your abode and going from place to place that you can OC as a lawful purpose.
    Last edited by vmaxanarchist; 11-11-2010 at 07:28 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    You can OC in Colorado, too. With the exception of the PDR of Denver, CO is a free state. And you don't need to carry your FOID to do it.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmaxanarchist View Post
    Someone with a non-resident permit can OC in all the no carry zones.

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as
    misdemeanor; penalty.
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    Notice it does not mention residency.
    I do stand corrected
    Actually, this issue is commonly discussed on the Michigan section of OCDO. I still would be cautious about OC with an out of state permit... "cautious" meaning that I would certainly carry a copy of the law with me. But, other than that, carry on!

    Now if I could just figure out how the new firearm laws in Chicago affect my ability to defend myself. Under the laws previous to the city's new firearm laws, I was able to find enough leeway to feel somewhat confident that I could carry... albeit in a way that it would take me a few seconds to defend my life. Under the new rules, without being able to register my pistol, I appear to be worse off than before. Any ideas how a out-of-stater with a concealed pistol license could transport a firearm in such a way to be able to utilize it in as little time as possible?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmaxanarchist View Post
    Someone with a non-resident concealed permit can OC in all the no carry zones.

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as
    misdemeanor; penalty.
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    Notice it does not mention residency.
    Two important things... 1 FOID is not a CONCEALED license so the comments about pistol free zones won't apply.

    2 without a concealed license you can not posses a pistol on the premises of any gas station or grocery store that has a liquor license. I think it would be unlikely a LEO would try to charge someone in one of those parking lots though. Hope to see you when the weather gets nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Eagle View Post
    Two important things... 1 FOID is not a CONCEALED license so the comments about pistol free zones won't apply.

    2 without a concealed license you can not posses a pistol on the premises of any gas station or grocery store that has a liquor license. I think it would be unlikely a LEO would try to charge someone in one of those parking lots though. Hope to see you when the weather gets nice.
    I was refering to a non-resident concealed permit. I have a Utah one.
    The only place in Michigan that I am aware of that I can not open carry on foot is a school zone. Only because the federal law that does not recgonize permits from any other state then the one the school is in. The same would apply to visitor to MI with a permit from any other state.

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    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmaxanarchist View Post
    I was refering to a non-resident concealed permit. I have a Utah one.
    The only place in Michigan that I am aware of that I can not open carry on foot is a school zone. Only because the federal law that does not recgonize permits from any other state then the one the school is in. The same would apply to visitor to MI with a permit from any other state.
    I'm just saying for those that only have an FOID card it's not the same as a carry permit from another state.

    Michigan has two sets of laws pertaning to pistol free zones, one is 28.425o (conceal carry) and 750.234d (open carry).

    Our 750.234d (open carry) PFZ's:
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

  18. #18
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmaxanarchist View Post
    I was refering to a non-resident concealed permit. I have a Utah one.
    The only place in Michigan that I am aware of that I can not open carry on foot is a school zone. Only because the federal law that does not recgonize permits from any other state then the one the school is in. The same would apply to visitor to MI with a permit from any other state.
    That is correct. Although state law would allow it, Federal law requres that the exemption afforded those who are licensed requires that such license be issued by the state in which the school zone is located.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 12-04-2010 at 09:49 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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