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If you open carry the day before deer season you are violating the DNR law

LOERetired

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If you open carry the day before deer season in the woods violating the DNR law

If you open carry the day before deer season you are knowingly violating the law as the law reads:

It is illegal to:
• possess any firearm from 12:00 midnight–11:59 p.m. on November 19, 2010 unless
the firearm is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case.

The whole law

possess any firearm from 12:00 midnight–11:59 p.m. on November 19, 2010 unless the firearm is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case. Exceptions: target shooting at established target ranges, target shooting on private lands by landowners and immediate family members who live with them, waterfowl hunting during open season, hunting game birds on licensed bird hunting preserves, and hunting turkeys and small game in CWD Management Zone units. Note: An established target range means an existing location that is set up for target shooting with firearms as its major purpose.

There is no exception to open carry stated nor does it specifically state that the regulation applies only in the woods, so, anywhere in Wisconsin you posess a firearme in the woods or not; even while open carying the day before deer season, you are violating the DNR regulation as it is written.

Don
 
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phred

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Here is a thought,


If it is a DNR rule then only a DNR warden would be able to enforce it. Does a county deputy sheriff enforce the DNR regulations, for example the bag limit of squirrels.
 

hardballer

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I suspect Wisconsin Constitution trumps DNR law...

Article I, §25
Right to keep and bear arms. Section 25. [As created Nov. 1998] The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose. [1995 J.R. 27, 1997 J.R. 21, vote November 1998]
 
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oak1971

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I'd like see them enforce that. I hunt on our own property and I'll be dammed if they can stop me from OC.
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

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If you open carry the day before deer season you are knowingly violating the law as the law reads:

It is illegal to:
• possess any firearm from 12:00 midnight–11:59 p.m. on November 19, 2010 unless
the firearm is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case.

The whole law

possess any firearm from 12:00 midnight–11:59 p.m. on November 19, 2010 unless the firearm is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case. Exceptions: target shooting at established target ranges, target shooting on private lands by landowners and immediate family members who live with them, waterfowl hunting during open season, hunting game birds on licensed bird hunting preserves, and hunting turkeys and small game in CWD Management Zone units. Note: An established target range means an existing location that is set up for target shooting with firearms as its major purpose.

There is no exception to open carry stated nor does it specifically state that the regulation applies only in the woods, so, anywhere in Wisconsin you posess a firearme in the woods or not; even while open carying the day before deer season, you are violating the DNR regulation as it is written.

Don

It also has no exception for DNR wardens or LEO's. So.....
 

Big Dipper

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If you open carry the day before deer season you are knowingly violating the law as the law reads:

It is illegal to:
• possess any firearm from 12:00 midnight–11:59 p.m. on November 19, 2010 unless
the firearm is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case.

The whole law

possess any firearm from 12:00 midnight–11:59 p.m. on November 19, 2010 unless the firearm is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case. Exceptions: target shooting at established target ranges, target shooting on private lands by landowners and immediate family members who live with them, waterfowl hunting during open season, hunting game birds on licensed bird hunting preserves, and hunting turkeys and small game in CWD Management Zone units. Note: An established target range means an existing location that is set up for target shooting with firearms as its major purpose.Don


The text in the "published" "deer hunting regs" is a paraphrasing of what is actually in the "Administrative Code" at NR10.09(2)

SPECIAL ONE−DAY RESTRICTION. During the 24−hour period prior to the opening date for the regular gun deer season established in s. NR 10.01 (3) (e) 1. a., b. and 5., no person may possess a gun wherein there is an open season for deer with guns specified in s. NR 10.01 (3) (e), unless the gun is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case. Exceptions:
(a) Target shooting at established ranges.
(b) Hunting on licensed game farms and shooting preserves.
(c) Hunting waterfowl during the open season.


Then as to a "penalty" the Admin Code points back to Chapter 29 of the Statutes and the only thing I can find there that might apply is:

29.971(4) For any violation of this chapter or any department order for which no other penalty is prescribed, by a forfeiture of not more than $100.



Also, interesting the wording "24−hour period prior to the opening date" so from 12:01 AM on opening day forward 'till legal hunting hours the WDNR will once again "allow" us to "possess " a loaded "gun".
 
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Interceptor_Knight

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Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
If you open carry the day before deer season you are knowingly violating the law as the law reads:

It is illegal to:
• possess any firearm from 12:00 midnight–11:59 p.m. on November 19, 2010 unless
the firearm is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case.

The whole law

possess any firearm from 12:00 midnight–11:59 p.m. on November 19, 2010 unless the firearm is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case. Exceptions: target shooting at established target ranges, target shooting on private lands by landowners and immediate family members who live with them, waterfowl hunting during open season, hunting game birds on licensed bird hunting preserves, and hunting turkeys and small game in CWD Management Zone units. Note: An established target range means an existing location that is set up for target shooting with firearms as its major purpose.

There is no exception to open carry stated nor does it specifically state that the regulation applies only in the woods, so, anywhere in Wisconsin you posess a firearme in the woods or not; even while open carying the day before deer season, you are violating the DNR regulation as it is written.
Incorrect....
To begin with, there is no WI Statute regarding this as there is only DNR Administrative Code. Even going according to the letter of the Code, you may Open Carry anywhere you wish so long as it is not an area where it is legal to hunt deer with a firearm. Since you may not hunt deer at Wal-Mart, you may Open Cary there. Since you may not hunt deer within any city limits with the exception of specific areas, you may Open Carry there.
HERE is the actual Code....
Chapter NR 10 GAME AND HUNTING
NR 10.09 Guns, ammunition and other devices.
(2) SPECIAL ONE−DAY RESTRICTION. During the 24−hour period
prior to the opening date for the regular gun deer season established
in s. NR 10.01 (3) (e) 1. a., b. and 5., no person may possess
a gun wherein there is an open season for deer with guns specified
in s. NR 10.01 (3) (e)
, unless the gun is unloaded and enclosed
within a carrying case. Exceptions:
(a) Target shooting at established ranges.
(b) Hunting on licensed game farms and shooting preserves.
(c) Hunting waterfowl during the open season.
 
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Interceptor_Knight

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I'd like see them enforce that. I hunt on our own property and I'll be dammed if they can stop me from OC.

There is an administrative enforcement exception for "target practice" on your own land which is reflected in the little paper "rule" book. So long as you are not wandering around in the woods, you would be fine. So long as you are willing to fight a citation in court, you would have no worries wandering around in the woods also.
 
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LOERetired

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hanks for the complete DNR Administrative Code

Incorrect....
To begin with, there is no WI Statute regarding this as there is only DNR Administrative Code. Even going according to the letter of the Code, you may Open Carry anywhere you wish so long as it is not an area where it is legal to hunt deer with a firearm. Since you may not hunt deer at Wal-Mart, you may Open Cary there. Since you may not hunt deer within any city limits with the exception of specific areas, you may Open Carry there.
HERE is the actual Code....

It's still unconstitutional giving the fact that I cannot walk in the woods OCing for self defense

Don
 
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IK is wrong again. That code infringes on ones ability to legally carry for self defense. Anywhere, from the back 40 to Target. Its that simple.
 

LOERetired

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Sent the DNR an email

IK is wrong again. That code infringes on ones ability to legally carry for self defense. Anywhere, from the back 40 to Target. Its that simple.

Now we will find out what the DNR's position is on this! I sent them an email, when I find out Monday I'll post the answer.

Don
 
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phred

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Now we will find out what the DNR's position is on this! I sent them an email, when I find out Monday I'll post the answer.

Don

"Can I open carry a firearm for self-defense......"


They will probably answer:

Thank you for your concerns. You may - as long as it is unloaded and completely encased. :banghead:
 

Captain Nemo

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29.014 Rule -making for this chapter.

29.014(1)
(1) The department shall establish and maintain open and closed seasons for fish and game and any bag limits, size limits, rest days and conditions governing the taking of fish and game that will conserve the fish and game supply and ensure the citizens of this state continued opportunities for good fishing, hunting and trapping.


29.014(2)
(2)

29.014(2)(b)
(b) All of the rules promulgated under this chapter are prima facie reasonable and lawful until found to be otherwise in a final determination by a court.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bottom line: Who is going to pay a lawyer @$100 an hour to fight a $100 fine, and therein lies the problem.
Same problem as with 167.31.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Our wallets rule" -Nemo
 
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Interceptor_Knight

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It's still unconstitutional giving the fact that I cannot walk in the woods OCing for self defense

IK is wrong again. That code infringes on ones ability to legally carry for self defense. Anywhere, from the back 40 to Target. Its that simple.

It is not clearly Unconstitutional. You may carry all you want. Only The manner of carry is regulated. This is no different than the State Park ban on Open Carry. You are not banned from carry in the forest on or off of your property.
Since this is merely DNR Administrative Code, it may be easier to fight should you have an overly zealous warden who has no proof of you hunting and only carrying openly.

"Can I open carry a firearm for self-defense......"


They will probably answer:

Thank you for your concerns. You may - as long as it is unloaded and completely encased.

This....
 
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J.Gleason

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29.014 Rule -making for this chapter.

29.014(1)
(1) The department shall establish and maintain open and closed seasons for fish and game and any bag limits, size limits, rest days and conditions governing the taking of fish and game that will conserve the fish and game supply and ensure the citizens of this state continued opportunities for good fishing, hunting and trapping.


29.014(2)
(2)

29.014(2)(b)
(b) All of the rules promulgated under this chapter are prima facie reasonable and lawful until found to be otherwise in a final determination by a court.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bottom line: Who is going to pay a lawyer @$100 an hour to fight a $100 fine, and therein lies the problem.
Same problem as with 167.31.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Our wallets rule" -Nemo

I think WCI would be willing to pay an attorney $100 per hour to fight this. Now that is just my opinion, you would have to ask the board but I could see that happening.
 

J.Gleason

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To be honest, if I was just out for a strole in the woods and a DNR Warden tried to stop me, I would just keep walking. I have committed no crime, am not about to commit a crime and he has no reason to believe I am guilty of either.

Keep walking and carry on! Do not Identify!
 

LOERetired

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Nr 10.09 (2) special one−day restriction

"Can I open carry a firearm for self-defense......"


They will probably answer:

Thank you for your concerns. You may - as long as it is unloaded and completely encased. :banghead:


It’s my understanding that anyone can challenge the constitutionality of any rules promulgated under chapter 29, and its cross reference NR 10. Therefore, you do not need to be cited for a violation to challenge the constitutionality of the chapter 29. However, if you challenge the constitutionality, you can either request an administrative review, or proceed to circuit court for a judge to decide.
If you have been cited for a violation under this chapter, you are first required to declare, in a court of law, that the law violated is unconstitutional 29.014(3)(4)

29.014 Rule−making for this chapter.

(1) The department shall establish and maintain open and closed seasons for fish and game and any bag limits, size limits, rest days and conditions governing the taking of fish and game that will conserve the fish and game supply and ensure the citizens of this state continued opportunities for good fishing, hunting and trapping.

(2) (b) All of the rules promulgated under this chapter are prima facie reasonable and lawful until found to be otherwise in a final determination by a court.

(c) Any reference to this chapter includes any rules promulgated under this chapter and any reference to any provision of this chapter includes any rules promulgated under that provision.

(3) Any rule of the department is subject to review in the manner provided in ch. 227, except that if the rule affects only the county in which the appellant resides, the appeal shall be to the circuit court of that county.

(4) No person may challenge the validity of a rule promulgated under this chapter in any prosecution of that person for a violation of this chapter or rules promulgated under this chapter unless the person has previously brought a separate action under s. 227.40 seeking a declaratory judgment on the validity of the rule.


Based upon the rules above, I can challenge the constitutionality of NR 10.09(2) simply be filing a declaratory action in Dane County Circuit Court, without having to be sited for a violation.

I sent an email; fully expecting them to write back stating that I cannot open carry during the 24 hour period prior to deer season, which I can use as supporting documentation of its prohibitions.


NR 10.09 (2) SPECIAL ONE−DAY RESTRICTION. During the 24−hour period prior to the opening date for the regular gun deer season established in s. NR 10.01 (3) (e) 1. a., b. and 5., no person may possess a gun wherein there is an open season for deer with guns specified in s. NR 10.01 (3) (e), unless the gun is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case. Exceptions:
(a) Target shooting at established ranges.

(b) Hunting on licensed game farms and shooting preserves.
(c) Hunting waterfowl during the open season.
(3) BOWS AND ARROWS. No person may:

I’m currently waiting on a reply from Mountain States Legal Foundation and the ACLU out of Madison to see if either one will take my complaint declaring NR § 45.09(1) and Wisconsin State Statute § 29.089(2) unconstitutional. Now, I can add to the suit declaring NR 10.09 (2) unconstitutional as well.



Don
 
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LOERetired

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Declaratory judgment proceedings

227.40 Declaratory judgment proceedings.

227.40(1)
(1) Except as provided in sub. (2), the exclusive means of judicial review of the validity of a rule shall be an action for declaratory judgment as to the validity of such rule brought in the circuit court for Dane County. The officer, board, commission or other agency whose rule is involved shall be the party defendant. The summons in such action shall be served as provided in s. 801.11 (3) and by delivering a copy to such officer or to the secretary or clerk of the agency where composed of more than one person or to any member of such agency. The court shall render a declaratory judgment in such action only when it appears from the complaint and the supporting evidence that the rule or its threatened application interferes with or impairs, or threatens to interfere with or impair, the legal rights and privileges of the plaintiff. A declaratory judgment may be rendered whether or not the plaintiff has first requested the agency to pass upon the validity of the rule in question.

227.40(2)
(2) The validity of a rule may be determined in any of the following judicial proceedings when material therein:

227.40(2)(a)
(a) Any civil proceeding by the state or any officer or agency thereof to enforce a statute or to recover thereunder, provided such proceeding is not based upon a matter as to which the opposing party is accorded an administrative review or a judicial review by other provisions of the statutes and such opposing party has failed to exercise such right to review so accorded;

227.40(2)(b)
(b) Criminal prosecutions;

227.40(2)(c)
(c) Proceedings or prosecutions for violations of county or municipal ordinances;

227.40(2)(d)
(d) Habeas corpus proceedings relating to criminal prosecution;

227.40(2)(e)
(e) Proceedings under s. 66.191, 1981 stats., or s. 40.65 (2), 106.50, 106.52, 303.07 (7) or 303.21 or ss. 227.52 to 227.58 or under ch. 102, 108 or 949 for review of decisions and orders of administrative agencies if the validity of the rule involved was duly challenged in the proceeding before the agency in which the order or decision sought to be reviewed was made or entered.

227.40(2)(f)
(f) Proceedings under s. 227.114 (6m).

227.40(3)
(3) In any judicial proceeding other than one set out above, in which the invalidity of a rule is material to the cause of action or any defense thereto, the assertion of such invalidity shall be set forth in the pleading of the party so maintaining the invalidity of such rule in that proceeding. The party so asserting the invalidity of such rule shall, within 30 days after the service of the pleading in which the party sets forth such invalidity, apply to the court in which such proceedings are had for an order suspending the trial of said proceeding until after a determination of the validity of said rule in an action for declaratory judgment under sub. (1) hereof.

227.40(3)(a)
(a) Upon the hearing of such application if the court is satisfied that the validity of such rule is material to the issues of the case, an order shall be entered staying the trial of said proceeding until the rendition of a final declaratory judgment in proceedings to be instituted forthwith by the party asserting the invalidity of such rule. If the court shall find that the asserted invalidity of a rule is not material to the case, an order shall be entered denying the application for stay.

227.40(3)(b)
(b) Upon the entry of a final order in said declaratory judgment action, it shall be the duty of the party who asserts the invalidity of the rule to formally advise the court of the outcome of the declaratory judgment action so brought as ordered by the court. After the final disposition of the declaratory judgment action the court shall be bound by and apply the judgment so entered in the trial of the proceeding in which the invalidity of the rule is asserted.

227.40(3)(c)
(c) Failure to set forth invalidity of a rule in a pleading or to commence a declaratory judgment proceeding within a reasonable time pursuant to such order of the court or to prosecute such declaratory judgment action without undue delay shall preclude such party from asserting or maintaining such rule is invalid.

227.40(4)(a)
(a) In any proceeding pursuant to this section for judicial review of a rule, the court shall declare the rule invalid if it finds that it violates constitutional provisions or exceeds the statutory authority of the agency or was promulgated without compliance with statutory rule-making procedures.

227.40(4)(b)
(b) Notwithstanding s. 227.54, in any proceeding under this section for judicial review of a rule, a court may not restrain, enjoin or suspend enforcement of the rule during the course of the proceeding on the basis of the alleged failure of the agency promulgating the rule to comply with s. 227.114.

227.40(4)(c)
(c) Notwithstanding par. (a), if a court finds that an agency did not adequately comply with s. 227.114, the court may not declare the rule invalid on that basis but shall order the agency to comply with that section and to propose any amendments to the rule that are necessary within a time specified by the court. Unless the legislature acts under s. 227.26 (2) to suspend the rule, the rule remains in effect while the agency complies with the order.

227.40(5)
(5) The joint committee for review of administrative rules shall be served with a copy of the petition in any action under this section and, with the approval of the joint committee on legislative organization, shall be made a party and be entitled to be heard.


227.40 - ANNOT.
History: Sup. Ct. Order, 67 Wis. 2d 585, 775 (1975); 1977 c. 29, 449; 1981 c. 278 s. 6; 1983 a. 90; 1983 a. 191 s. 6; 1985 a. 182 ss. 26, 55 (1), 57; Stats. 1985 s. 227.40; 1987 a. 403 s. 256; 1989 a. 31; 1991 a. 316; 1995 a. 27; 1999 a. 82; 2003 a. 145; 2005 a. 249.


227.40 - ANNOT.
The plaintiff could not bring a declaratory judgment action under sub. (1) since it could contest the validity of a rule in an action brought against the plaintiff under sub. (2). Phillips Plastics Corp. v. DNR, 98 Wis. 2d 524, 297 N.W.2d 69 (Ct. App. 1980).


227.40 - ANNOT.
Pleading requirements for challenging administrative rules are established. The record for judicial review and the scope of judicial review are discussed. Liberty Homes, Inc. v. DILHR, 136 Wis. 2d 368, 401 N.W.2d 805 (1987).


227.40 - ANNOT.
A failure to comply with this section prevented the trial court from acquiring jurisdiction. Harris v. Reivitz, 142 Wis. 2d 82, 417 N.W.2d 50 (Ct. App. 1987).


227.40 - ANNOT.
Under sub. (5), the plaintiff must serve JCRAR within 60 days of filing, pursuant to s. 893.02. Richards v. Young, 150 Wis. 2d 549, 441 N.W.2d 742 (1989).


227.40 - ANNOT.
In a conflict between a statute and a rule, the statute controls. Debeck v. DNR, 172 Wis. 2d 382, 493 N.W.2d 234 (Ct. App. 1992).


227.40 - ANNOT.
This section encompasses policies or other statements, standards, or orders that meet the definition of a rule under s. 227.01 (13) but have not been promulgated as rules under s. 227.10. Heritage Credit Union v. Office of Credit Unions, 2001 WI App 213, 247 Wis. 2d 589, 634 N.W.2d 593, 00-3162.


227.40 - ANNOT.
The trial court erred by denying a motion to change venue to Dane County when the motion asserted that a department of corrections system was a rule, although it was never promulgated as a rule, and therefore, the "rule" was invalid. Johnson v. Berge, 2003 WI App 51, 260 Wis. 2d 758, 659 N.W.2d 418, 02-0911.

227.40 - ANNOT.
Although administrative agencies do not have the power to declare statutes unconstitutional, and the lack of authority has been a basis for not applying the exhaustion exhaustion of administrative remedies doctrine, if the agency has the authority to provide the relief requested without invalidating the rule, a constitutional basis for a claim does not in itself support an exception to the rule. Metz v. Veterinary Examining Board, 2007 WI App 220, 305 Wis. 2d 788, 741 N.W.2d 244, 06-1611.

227.40 - ANNOT.
How to review an administrative rule. Levine. WBB Oct. 1983.

227.40 - ANNOT.
The standard of review of administrative rules in Wisconsin. Zabrowski. 1982 WLR 691.
 
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