Handgun posession w/ CPL and nonCPL holders in vehicle in transortation ??

stainless1911 said:

Please don't take offense to this. Its just that one word does make all the difference in law. Sucks, but its the way of it. One word can mean the difference between freedom and a felony.

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No one likes to be corrected, it points to our deficiencies, but the truth is ...words mean stuff. We need to be correct or be corrected. When someone points out an error with respect and civility, the good guys win.JMO.springerdave.

Wglide90 said:

Can a CPL holder claim posession of nonCPL holder's handgun in either his own vehicle or in the nonCPL holder's vehicle? If so, what constitutes posession in the vehicle? Some insight would be helpful. Thanks.

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I would also say to the first question that it wouldn't mater if the CPL holder is the driver or passenger as long as the nonCPL holder is never left alone in the vehicle.

I suggest that the person without a CPL remove their holster so that if there is a traffic stop the LEO would have a harder time accusing them of unholstering during the stop. Not a law just a good idea.

An instructor of mine used to like to say "You got it half right...and half right is all wrong."

Bronson

Bronson said:

An instructor of mine used to like to say "You got it half right...and half right is all wrong."

Bronson

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Agreed.....excellent point!

I agree that the “approved case” is an important element that I failed to state in my original post. At the time I thought it was trivial, but after further consideration I realize its importance.

What happened here was I took one of the replies not as a personal attack, but nit picking. After rereading these posts several times, I realize that it wasn’t the case, it was simply how I perceived it at the time.

Unfortunately with email and internet forums things can be taken totally out of context when it never was an issue to begin with. This was my bad for not taking the time to think about it before I responded.

To Bronson and anybody else I snapped at, I apologize.

budlight said:

I agree that the “approved case” is an important element that I failed to state in my original post. At the time I thought it was trivial, but after further consideration I realize its importance.

What happened here was I took one of the replies not as a personal attack, but nit picking. After rereading these posts several times, I realize that it wasn’t the case, it was simply how I perceived it at the time.

Unfortunately with email and internet forums things can be taken totally out of context when it never was an issue to begin with. This was my bad for not taking the time to think about it before I responded.

To Bronson and anybody else I snapped at, I apologize.

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We are in this together, Glad to have you with us. They wouldn't have even spoken up if they didn't care.

It is tough to know "where someone is coming from" when posting in these internet forums...

Golden Eagle said:

I would also say to the first question that it wouldn't mater if the CPL holder is the driver or passenger as long as the nonCPL holder is never left alone in the vehicle.

I suggest that the person without a CPL remove their holster so that if there is a traffic stop the LEO would have a harder time accusing them of unholstering during the stop. Not a law just a good idea.

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Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the info and details. The reason i asked is that my best buddy just picked up a M&P 40 like mine and may want to OC with me, but doesn't have CPL yet. I wanted to know if I could claim possession in any vehicle I was in. I was pretty sure it was OK but wanted some supporting info.

As far as the guys that are nit-picking the details that is fine, we all need to know the ins-n-outs and for sure one word or phrase can make a lot of difference when it comes to defending yourself against possible law infringments. As OCrs we have all nit-picked so that we all know the laws exactly so we don't end up on the wrong side of the law by accident.

Golden eagle... good idea about the non-CPL person not having holster on until out of vehicle if I claim possession of his loaded firearm, that could help eliminate that scenario of whom actually is in possession.

Thanks to all that inputted.

Accepted and understood. We all do it from time to time.

Bronson

Wglide90 said:

Golden eagle... good idea about the non-CPL person not having holster on until out of vehicle if I claim possession of his loaded firearm, that could help eliminate that scenario of whom actually is in possession.

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I missed that idea in the thread...good one. Personally I'd say in this situation that you, as the borrower/passenger, should have it under your direct physical control. Put it in your jacket pocket or in your waistband or just tuck it between your leg and the seat. Is all that required? No, but I would think it would go a long way to proving you were the one in possession as opposed to it sitting in the center console.

Bronson

budlight said:

I agree that the “approved case” is an important element that I failed to state in my original post. At the time I thought it was trivial, but after further consideration I realize its importance.

What happened here was I took one of the replies not as a personal attack, but nit picking. After rereading these posts several times, I realize that it wasn’t the case, it was simply how I perceived it at the time.

Unfortunately with email and internet forums things can be taken totally out of context when it never was an issue to begin with. This was my bad for not taking the time to think about it before I responded.

To Bronson and anybody else I snapped at, I apologize.

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That was a respectable thing to say.

Earlier this week, there was a snafu about OT stuff. This conversation is an excellent example of why that should be interpreted loosely.

Bronson said:

I missed that idea in the thread...good one. Personally I'd say in this situation that you, as the borrower/passenger, should have it under your direct physical control. Put it in your jacket pocket or in your waistband or just tuck it between your leg and the seat. Is all that required? No, but I would think it would go a long way to proving you were the one in possession as opposed to it sitting in the center console.

Bronson

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In your jacket pocket may be better than just somewhere in the vehicle, here is one reason. Suppose you are pulled over and asked to separate from the car for what ever reason, if the "borrowed" gun was left in the car, the un-CPLd passenger could be charged with a crime. If it was actually in your physical possession, no big deal.springerdave.

IIRC if an officer causes a crime to be committed, then I don't think they can convict.

You could just say that there is a gun in the car, and that complying with the order to exit would cause your passenger to be in possession of it. After doing that, it would be impossible to get a conviction.

Goodman Budlight

budlight said:

I agree that the “approved case” is an important element that I failed to state in my original post. At the time I thought it was trivial, but after further consideration I realize its importance.

What happened here was I took one of the replies not as a personal attack, but nit picking. After rereading these posts several times, I realize that it wasn’t the case, it was simply how I perceived it at the time.

Unfortunately with email and internet forums things can be taken totally out of context when it never was an issue to begin with. This was my bad for not taking the time to think about it before I responded.

To Bronson and anybody else I snapped at, I apologize.

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See - one more example of a class act here folks. Good on you all!

a little more information

MCL 28.432 (i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual's possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.

Bronson said:

Wee bit touchy tonight?

I have been corrected on this forum more times than I can count...it's how we learn. Small slip-ups like the one pointed out above have the potential to bring large problems. Everybody on this website is on the lookout to make sure the info presented here is factual and correct and nobody is above being corrected.

I believe the proper response when someone points out a legal error in one of our posts should be something along the lines of "thanks, can't believe I missed that."

Bronson

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agreed, after all the reason we can open carry in PFZ's is due to one "little" word,,,,,

mrjam2jab said:

Would a range bag suffice?

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yup! law law says a case designed for a firearm, so even if you made your own case it would meet the law standard, a range bag by definition could store a firearm and if thats your case for it the yup its a case designed for a firearm! the case dosen't havce to serve just to carry the gun!

oh yea i just learned what this means so i will use my new knowledge! IANAL ha!:monkey

springerdave said:

In your jacket pocket may be better than just somewhere in the vehicle, here is one reason. Suppose you are pulled over and asked to separate from the car for what ever reason, if the "borrowed" gun was left in the car, the un-CPLd passenger could be charged with a crime. If it was actually in your physical possession, no big deal.springerdave.

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Another good point. I'm not sure I'd be doing this unless it happened just so we would be covered if caught for some reason in the situation.

After the discussion, I think there too many cons for me to do it on regular basis. I'd certainly cover my bud if need be.

Thanks guys.

budlight said:

I hear you, but unless you tell an LEO that you are on the way to shoot somebody or trade it for drugs you are safe on that part of the law.

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How would the officer know you have a weapon in the trunk? Why would he have reason to look?

Keep your mouth shut, act normal, WRR!

Ok I have a couple questions. i have a locked compartment under the passenger seat of my van is that a legal place to transport it?
-second ? is it legal to put it in there not in a case but just take my magazine out of it and place it in the drawer and lock it up for transport?
- third ? is it legal to holster the gun before you step out of your car for the purpose of open carry?(without a cpl)or do you have to be standing outside the car to holster it?
-fourth ? is can you have your clip loaded but not in the gun during transport.

It just seems like a lot to have to get out of the car and uncase your gun load it and holster it for the purpose of open carry.

francis said:

Ok I have a couple questions. i have a locked compartment under the passenger seat of my van is that a legal place to transport it?
-second ? is it legal to put it in there not in a case but just take my magazine out of it and place it in the drawer and lock it up for transport?
- third ? is it legal to holster the gun before you step out of your car for the purpose of open carry?(without a cpl)or do you have to be standing outside the car to holster it?
-fourth ? is can you have your clip loaded but not in the gun during transport.

It just seems like a lot to have to get out of the car and uncase your gun load it and holster it for the purpose of open carry.

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1. NO! It should be as far from you as physically possible in the situation where you have no trunk. It is possible that you could win the argument if the compartment were designed to store a gun, but its not worth it if you lose. The point is, that you would very likely need to make the argument.
2. NO! The gun must be cased in something designed for a firearm, unloaded, in the trunk, or in a place not easily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle
3.NO! you must never handle a gun inside any vehicle without a CPL, the gun should remain cased until you exit the vehicle completely, and again cased before you re enter the vehicle. It is a felony to do otherwise.
4. Yes, the magazine can be loaded, but not in the gun at the time. Clear your breech as well. Good policy is to leave the slide in the open position within the gun case. This makes reloading faster anyhow.

See this law: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28p5rskpjpsxfh3tirejgd2vyd%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-231a

By all means, get your CPL if you can. Stick around for a while, and ask as many questions as you can think of. People will be more than happy to help you. Open carry is neither dangerous, nor is it difficult, but there is a bit of a learning curve, and there are a few things you need to know. Welcome to OCDO.

BTW, familiarize yourself with this law as well : Pay attention to details.http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(p5...g.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-234d