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Thread: what legally defines a hospital?

  1. #1
    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    what legally defines a hospital?

    We all know hospitals are OC w/ cpl only zones....

    but what about places like doctors offices,would a cpl be required for such a place?

    its something ive pondered for awhile now and i figure now is as good a time as any to ask...
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    i'll expand on his question. what about after hour clinics? say like the one on hall road? its a beaumont emergency clinic, not a hospital but i suppose an in between? from doctor office and actual hospital, would that be a hospital under law??

    great thread lil!
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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    Can't speak to any SPECIAL definitions in your states law but from my experience in the health care field since 1979 here is my take on it....

    Hospital: location where Patients are admitted, provided a bed and meals and are cared for on a 24/7 basis.
    Stand alone emergency centers, clinics, URGENT care centers, dialysis centers, etc": locations in which OUT patients are cared for on a less than 24/7 basis. OVERNIGHT STAYS aren't expected by the clients and meals are not provided.

    Also, a Hospital would need to be licensed as such by either the State or Federal Government and/or accredited by a recognized authority such as JCAHO.
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 10-30-2010 at 08:52 PM. Reason: missed "Urgent" and the licencing/accrediation statement

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    I think sparky has it right, 24/7 care.

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    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    found this definition for a Michigan Hospital

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Pa...ns_62376_7.pdf

    (5) “Hospital” means a facility offering inpatient, overnight care, and services for observation, diagnosis, and active treatment of an individual with a medical, surgical, obstetric, chronic, or rehabilitative condition requiring the daily direction or supervision of a physician. Hospital does not include a mental health hospital licensed or operated by the department of community health or a hospital operated by the department of corrections
    Last edited by Onnie; 10-30-2010 at 10:36 PM.
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    Im not a lawyer, but I did play a Klingon once at Universal Studios

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    nice job onnie

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    The beds are a key I think.. Overnight inpatient care "a facility offering inpatient, overnight care, and services for....."


    well done Onnie

    ..

    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post
    found this definition for a Michigan Hospital

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Pa...ns_62376_7.pdf

    (5) “Hospital” means a facility offering inpatient, overnight care, and services for observation, diagnosis, and active treatment of an individual with a medical, surgical, obstetric, chronic, or rehabilitative condition requiring the daily direction or supervision of a physician. Hospital does not include a mental health hospital licensed or operated by the department of community health or a hospital operated by the department of corrections
    Last edited by Bailenforcer; 10-31-2010 at 04:46 AM.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post
    found this definition for a Michigan Hospital

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Pa...ns_62376_7.pdf

    (5) “Hospital” means a facility offering inpatient, overnight care, and services for observation, diagnosis, and active treatment of an individual with a medical, surgical, obstetric, chronic, or rehabilitative condition requiring the daily direction or supervision of a physician. Hospital does not include a mental health hospital licensed or operated by the department of community health or a hospital operated by the department of corrections

    great job! now if we could just get around private property rights all would be well in smurfville!
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

    Michigan Concealed Pistol Instructor. Cost 80.00 With advanced techniques included free. PM for more information!

  9. #9
    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    glad to have been of some help

    When Guns are OUTLAWED, Ill be an OUTLAW
    American Tactical Imports C45 45 AP
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    Hi point C9 9mm
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    Im not a lawyer, but I did play a Klingon once at Universal Studios

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    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    great job! now if we could just get around private property rights all would be well in smurfville!
    Yep, private property should never trump SD rights.

    The bed thing raises an interesting question. What about a sleep study place?

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Since it's not defined in the act in question, it may be appropriate to rely on a dictionary definition.

    When in doubt, ask a lawyer though.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    so by using that definition,an urgent care place or doctors office is NOT a restricted carry zone,and no cpl is needed for open carry there,correct?
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    IANAL. Yes.

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    I disagree.

    In my opinion, private property rights should trump state and federal law. If it's your place, you should be able to set the rules. The .gov shouldn't be able to tell you who can or can't smoke in your building. As a private property owner you should also be able to decide who can carry at your establishment. ie: if you own a hospital, or a bar, or a sports arena, you should be able to decide if people can carry there.

    If you don't like the rules at a particular property, ie: a restaurant that allows smoking, then you are free to go to a different establishment. The government should not be telling you what you can and cannot do on your own property.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    In the home we agree. In a business, no. The owner opened the business in a country that had peoples rights in place first. They knew it when they opened. If they want to restrict activities, they need to operate as a club with members. If they don't like the country's rights, then let them choose a different country to open up their business in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lil_freak_66 View Post
    so by using that definition,an urgent care place or doctors office is NOT a restricted carry zone,and no cpl is needed for open carry there,correct?
    For doctors offices this is correct, UNLESS (like any other private business) there is a sign stating no firearms or you are told by a representative of the business that firearms are not allowed.

    For urgent care, make sure that the building is not attached to the hospital, on hospital property, or any other way that someone could "twist" into defining as a hospital. I can picture some over zealous officer or prosecutor trying to make an urgent care fit into the definition of a hospital if it was on the same grounds or attached to the building. Remember, even if they are wrong, if you are charged it will cost money to defend the case.
    Last edited by budlight; 10-31-2010 at 04:50 PM.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    I disagree.

    In my opinion, private property rights should trump state and federal law. If it's your place, you should be able to set the rules. The .gov shouldn't be able to tell you who can or can't smoke in your building. As a private property owner you should also be able to decide who can carry at your establishment. ie: if you own a hospital, or a bar, or a sports arena, you should be able to decide if people can carry there.

    If you don't like the rules at a particular property, ie: a restaurant that allows smoking, then you are free to go to a different establishment. The government should not be telling you what you can and cannot do on your own property.
    +1 +1
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    In the home we agree. In a business, no. The owner opened the business in a country that had peoples rights in place first. They knew it when they opened. If they want to restrict activities, they need to operate as a club with members. If they don't like the country's rights, then let them choose a different country to open up their business in.
    -1
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    How about an out building on hospital property? A building outside and not attatched by a catwalk, coverd breezway or anything...just on the outer edges of the parking lot and used as a community room or classroom?

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    If its owned by the hospital, then a solid argument could be made against you. IMO, thats a bunch of crap, but wouldn't suprise me a bit. You can OC with a CPL though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rj3663 View Post
    How about an out building on hospital property? A building outside and not attatched by a catwalk, coverd breezway or anything...just on the outer edges of the parking lot and used as a community room or classroom?
    Without a CPL no, with a CPL yes. IMO the whole property would be viewed as the premises. See below;

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

    Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    Last edited by budlight; 10-31-2010 at 09:10 PM.

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    and he nails it, nothin but net.

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    Regular Member CharleyMarbles's Avatar
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    OK here we go (firesuit on) I agree with property rights trumping 2A. please here me out ?

    I only agree IF 1 the property owner can be held culpable for any harm that comes to anyone who is striped of there 2A rights by his decision to put in place the restriction.

    AND 2 this INCLUDES any unit of Government who put's in place such restrictions.

    It is my belife that if we could get this codified we would see a drastic drop in the stupid restrictions and it wouldn't even be an issue in very short order.

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    Although I almost agree, (and would support such measures if given the opportunity), I have to say that my life or my loved ones cannot be sued back into being, therefore I would prefer that the practice of baring my most basic right to SD be illegal. I get why some might like to protect property rights, but life is greater than property. We can't use deadly force to protect property...just sayin'

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    Regular Member CharleyMarbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Although I almost agree, (and would support such measures if given the opportunity), I have to say that my life or my loved ones cannot be sued back into being, therefore I would prefer that the practice of baring my most basic right to SD be illegal. I get why some might like to protect property rights, but life is greater than property. We can't use deadly force to protect property...just sayin'
    The Idea of them being culpable is not to resurect but to make the thought of stripping us of our right to SD so distastfull that it never comes up. If it could wind up costing you everything you have to make a stupid decision you are probly NOT going to make that call :0

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