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Thread: Gun show open carry

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    Gun show open carry

    How does the whole open carry at a gun show work out? I would like to go later this month but not sure if it's open carry friendly and if so in what condition should I carry it in?

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    Regular Member rotty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigrscu View Post
    How does the whole open carry at a gun show work out? I would like to go later this month but not sure if it's open carry friendly and if so in what condition should I carry it in?
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-one-for-ya-ll

    That's how it works in MN... do some checking and find out. I believe it is or could be different depending on the owners of the show.
    - Knowledge is power and there IS strength in numbers -

    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
    - Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    NC it's banned simply because we can't carry anywhere admission is charged.

    Yes, this includes movie theaters.

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    They will not allow you to carry your sidearm with any ammo in it. You will need to check your firearm at the entrance, and they will put a zip tie through it. I have carried mine openly this way, with the zip tie in the Serpa, but that was before I vowed to never go back.

    If you want to carry, it will need to be concealed so they don't know about it.
    Last edited by Kevin Jensen; 10-31-2010 at 12:56 AM.
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    Thank the Lord...

    Quote Originally Posted by sultan62 View Post
    NC it's banned simply because we can't carry anywhere admission is charged.

    Yes, this includes movie theaters.
    That Utah does not have such laws.
    Utah Certified Concealed Firearms Permit Instructor
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    So far as I'm aware, the gun shows in Utah will not permit you to carry a loaded, usable firearm into the venues. However, they have not, to date, deployed magnetometers or taken other measures to detect a concealed firearm.

    I have personally visited with one of the guys who owns/runs these shows. I can assure everyone that this policy has nothing to do with any kind of anti-gun or anti-OC sentiment. It is a legitimate safety concern and is also a requirement of their liability insurance carrier. And before you say find another carrier, I'm told that there is literally only about 1 carrier left who will even touch gun shows. Given today's litigious climate, no liability insurance, no show. Nobody in his right mind is going to risk even his business finances, much less any personal financial loss in order to host a gun show open to the general public without the financial protection offered by an active insurance policy.

    Bear in mind that gun shows and gun stores present a very unique environment for firearms safety. I know of no other public place where it is legally and socially acceptable to be handling firearms. And due to the physical layout of the events it is all but impossible not to routinely violate basic gun safety rules about not pointing a gun at anything you don't intend to shoot. So some kind of additional safety precautions are warranted.

    In a better world, everyone would be perfect about making sure firearms are unloaded and we'd have no problems. But that doesn't happen and we can't rely on it happening. In a better world we might even have a simple rule that self-defense guns remain holstered and that any guns being handled be unloaded. Again, always too many who will violate that rule to check out some accessory for the gun they are carrying fully loaded and ready for self-defense. And in a crowded gun show with no safe direction to point a gun, that creates a serious danger and real risk of injury or death. So instead of relying on everyone being perfect, the gun shows require that all guns be unloaded.

    Even with that, every year across this nation there is an ND or two within a gun show. Some have gone so far as to suggest that anti-RKBA extremists might actually smuggle in live ammo and leave guns loaded after handling them just hoping for a tragic incident to use an excuse to shut down gun shows. I should hope that is just a very tall, sick tale. But what is not in dispute is the extent to which the anti's have been vigorously attacking gun shows for many years. They recognize--and so should we--that gun shows are about a lot more than just buying a gun. They present a chance to network, to educate, to preserve and perpetuate the pro-RKBA culture, and to increase awareness of self-reliance generally.

    I would hope none of us would do anything to endanger gun shows. For those who simply refuse to go anywhere they cannot OC, I can respect a decision not to attend gun shows. I hope such a position extends to commercial air travel, the office, and other such locations as well rather than just singling out gun shows. After all, gun shows do present a very valuable venue for helping introduce others to RKBA while other venues that restrict loaded firearms do nothing to advance RKBA. Others, may consider deep concealing a self-defense firearm and then keeping it concealed unless it is actually needed for self defense since there is no law violated in doing so here in Utah. Others might even consider just leaving usable guns out just as they do at the office or in other places.

    But short answer, don't expect to be allowed to carry any loaded gun into a gun show if the venue is aware of the presence of that gun. But please don't presume the policy is intended as or based on any hostility to RKBA.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 11-01-2010 at 08:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistol Pete Utah View Post
    That Utah does not have such laws.
    Actually...I used to work at a movie theater, and we didn't allow firearms inside our theaters either. I know, it sucked, but I've seen a few fights in there that could easily have turned nasty...well, nastier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaEnder View Post
    Actually...I used to work at a movie theater, and we didn't allow firearms inside our theaters either. I know, it sucked, but I've seen a few fights in there that could easily have turned nasty...well, nastier.
    Yes, there are a few venues in Utah that have private policies banning guns. However, unlike in some other States, with rare exception (private homes and houses of worship), such policies are not backed up by force of law. Legally they carry exactly the same weight as a dress code requiring coat and tie: someone violating the policy can be asked to leave and failure to do so may result in a trespassing charge. But there is no gun crime committed in ignoring such policies just as there is no "dress code crime" committed by showing up at a ritzy restaurant in ratty jeans.

    And whereas no gun policies at a theater or club are based on paranoid fears about what "could happen" if an innocent person were able to defend himself, as I've pointed out, there is solid logic behind banning loaded guns from gun shows. At a gun show, people are actually handling and even sighting firearms in a situation where there is no safe direction, no safe backstop, etc. For a theater to ban guns is akin to that venue banning blacks or Jews. However, for a gun show to require all guns to be unloaded is a lot closer to a hospital requiring that guns and all other metal objects be kept well away from MRI machines.

    Charles

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    ...I have personally visited with one of the guys who owns/runs these shows. I can assure everyone that this policy has nothing to do with any kind of anti-gun or anti-OC sentiment. It is a legitimate safety concern and is also a requirement of their liability insurance carrier. And before you say find another carrier, I'm told that there is literally only about 1 carrier left who will even touch gun shows. Given today's litigious climate, no liability insurance, no show. ...
    Bear in mind that gun shows and gun stores present a very unique environment for firearms safety. I know of no other public place where it is legally and socially acceptable to be handling firearms. And due to the physical layout of the events it is all but impossible not to routinely violate basic gun safety rules about not pointing a gun at anything you don't intend to shoot. So some kind of additional safety precautions are warranted.

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    ...as I've pointed out, there is solid logic behind banning loaded guns from gun shows. At a gun show, people are actually handling and even sighting firearms in a situation where there is no safe direction, no safe backstop, etc.
    Very interesting point about the inherently unavoidable violation of one of the major gun safety rules. I'd not thought of it quite that way.

    You're totally correct on this issue, of course. Good work on thinking it through and getting an insider's perspective, UB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post

    Charles
    WTB a 'Like' button.

    Good post

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Bear in mind that gun shows and gun stores present a very unique environment for firearms safety. I know of no other public place where it is legally and socially acceptable to be handling firearms. And due to the physical layout of the events it is all but impossible not to routinely violate basic gun safety rules about not pointing a gun at anything you don't intend to shoot. So some kind of additional safety precautions are warranted.
    Charles
    Carry firearms are not being handled and pointed. It is not logical to limit those for 'safety.' It is logical to ensure that the firearms which are being handled are not loaded, but denying self-protection firearms due to that simply does not follow as a logical response. It does follow as a "fear" response.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by HankT View Post
    Very interesting point about the inherently unavoidable violation of one of the major gun safety rules. I'd not thought of it quite that way.
    While it may be an "interesting" point, it isn't a logical point.

    The firearms that are being handled are NOT loaded. Limiting others doesn't change that, nor does it add more inherent safety.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    While it may be an "interesting" point, it isn't a logical point.

    The firearms that are being handled are NOT loaded. Limiting others doesn't change that, nor does it add more inherent safety.
    More unloaded guns . . . more risk.

    More loaded guns . . . significantly more risk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    Carry firearms are not being handled and pointed. It is not logical to limit those for 'safety.' It is logical to ensure that the firearms which are being handled are not loaded, but denying self-protection firearms due to that simply does not follow as a logical response. It does follow as a "fear" response.
    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme
    The firearms that are being handled are NOT loaded. Limiting others doesn't change that, nor does it add more inherent safety.
    Sadly, experience at both gun shows and in gun stores demonstrates that loaded guns are, in fact, too often handled. (At least in gun stores numbers and crowds tend to be much smaller, there are some safe directions to point, and most handling will take place only under the direct supervision of a store employee.) Some just cant resist the temptation to quickly check and see if that really nifty holster or other accessory fits well the firearm they are carrying. In some cases, it has actually been exhibitors who had the ND with their carry pieces that were allowed into the show loaded.

    I freely concede, indeed did so in my initial post on this thread, that if we could get 100% compliance with a rule about leaving carry firearms in their holster, gun shows could then alter their rules. But the fact is, we don't get 100% compliance with any rule. In fact, think about the basic rules of gun safety. They are layered in such a way that multiple rules must be broken at the same time in order to have an ND AND have than ND cause injury, death, or serious financial harm. In other words, with multiple rules in place, compliance of less than 100% with any one of the rules does not result in death or injury.

    Keep the firearm unloaded until you are ready to use it;
    Only point the gun at something you want to shoot;
    Be sure of your target and what is downrange.
    Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot;

    Three of those four most basic rules are routinely, darn near necessarily, violated at a gun show. There is no safe direction to point when handling a gun in both booths at most gun shows. There is usually no safe backdrop. And people are going to finger the trigger, even dry fire in many cases.

    It is essential then to have perfect, 100% compliance with that last, remaining rule: the one about keeping the firearm unloaded.

    It is not fear, certainly not a baseless or irrational fear that notes this. It is a simple numbers games. X thousand people in a show, times y shows a year, times how many guns an average person handles in a show starts to equal very real risk about an ND and an ND that strikes a person rather than just a safe backdrop. Anyone with an ounce of situational awareness inside a gun show is either going to spend his entire time bobbing and weaving to try to avoid ever having a gun pointed at him or he is going to have to believe that such guns are not loaded because they have been carefully inspected, multiple times, and some pains have been taken to avoid allowing loaded guns into the shows.

    Walmart, movie theaters, Costco, grocery stores, etc ban guns out of fear or political bias. Gun shows do it out of rational, appropriate recognition of the unique characteristics of their venue.

    To draw an analogy: when city council chambers or Statehouses are made off limits to guns, it is about paranoid fantasies or political bias. When jails and prisons and criminal mental hospitals don't allow anyone including sworn peace officers to carry guns (in most areas), it is a rational, solid recognition of the unique dynamics of that situation. Even a level 10 retention holster and a 50 round magazine is worthless if 100 convicts with nothing to lose decide they are going to take that gun from you. Similarly, keeping guns away from MRI machines or aluminum recycling plants is essential.

    If gun shows kept all the guns under glass and there was no handling of firearms, then there would be no need to limit loaded guns. And most of us would have far less interest in attending the shows. On the flip side, when it is legally and socially acceptable to handle my firearm inside a grocery store, to point it in more or less random directions, and even dry fire it without that conduct being both criminal and grounds for either LEO or law abiding person carrying his own gun to engage with whatever force he thinks necessary to defend innocent life then and only then will a "No (loaded) Gun" policy in such stores make sense or be comparable to a similar rule at gun shows.

    But at the end of the day, if someone strongly disagrees with me about this, then I encourage that person to go out and host a gun show where handling of guns is allowed. Arrange for the vendors and exhibitors, place the necessary deposits, and either obtain the necessary insurance or place your personal property at stake in the event of an accident. Until you've done that relative to the unique environment that is a gun show, you have very little room to criticize those who are providing this service to us.

    Or, if you are 100% perfect about never handling your loaded gun inside a gun show, then carry it discretely enough into the show that it won't be noticed. In Utah, there is no crime in doing so. But don't act as if there is no sound, rational basis for some different rules at a gun show (or around an MRI machine, an aluminum plant, or inside a prison) than there is walking down the street or buying groceries. That belies a position of allowing political views to block out all willingness to deal with facts.

    I realize this doesn't fit nicely into a soundbite. So it will remain easy and convenient for the gun grabbers, hoplophobes, and media to point out what they see as some kind of "hypocrisy" on the part of gun shows. But a man who carries a gun should be a thinking man, not someone who merely reacts to sound bites. And a thinking man should be able to see the basis for, and defensibility of these gun show policies at least once they have been pointed out to him.

    All due respect.

    Charles

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigrscu View Post
    How does the whole open carry at a gun show work out? I would like to go later this month but not sure if it's open carry friendly and if so in what condition should I carry it in?
    In AZ we unload... they (at the gate) put a zip tie thru the barrel and close the action. No big deal... not much reason to be armed in that situation. All the dealers are heeled tho. I think some of y'all are much more self concious of carrying than people who've done it 'forever'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HankT View Post
    More unloaded guns . . . more risk.
    What 'risk' is there in an unloaded gun?
    Quote Originally Posted by HankT
    More loaded guns . . . significantly more risk.
    What 'risk' is there in a loaded gun? The loaded guns aren't being handled at a gun show.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    In AZ we unload... they (at the gate) put a zip tie thru the barrel and close the action. No big deal... not much reason to be armed in that situation. All the dealers are heeled tho. I think some of y'all are much more self concious of carrying than people who've done it 'forever'.
    I view this exactly as I view the discussions where Scheel's or other sports store "requires" customers to only bring unloaded firearms into the store. It is for those firearms that are being brought into the store to either return them, have them looked at for trade or sale, or to specifically try in a holster. It should NOT be a restriction upon a carry weapon. A carry weapon should only be unholstered to either use it, or to comply with laws regarding transportation; not to unload for some "need" of a venue such as a gun show.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    I view this exactly as I view the discussions where Scheel's or other sports store "requires" customers to only bring unloaded firearms into the store. It is for those firearms that are being brought into the store to either return them, have them looked at for trade or sale, or to specifically try in a holster. It should NOT be a restriction upon a carry weapon. A carry weapon should only be unholstered to either use it, or to comply with laws regarding transportation; not to unload for some "need" of a venue such as a gun show.
    Yes, a carry weapon should remain holstered. But too often they do not. You can search the archives of this very site to find eye-witnesses to people clearly unholstering a carry gun inside a gun store so as to check the fit of one accessory or another. And once a carry gun is unholstered, it looks exactly like a non-carry gun being brought in to buy, sell, trade, return, check for accessories, etc. That is the problem.

    In most public settings, any unholstered gun rightly raises major concern. Indeed, one reason many of us carry is to be prepared to properly respond when we see someone else with an unholstered gun.

    How can you fail to see the marked difference between this usual situation and the unique environment inside a gun show or gun store where we expect to see unholstered guns, expect to see those guns being handled, pointed/sighted, perhaps even dry fired?

    Again, the rules of gun safety are designed such that multiple rules must be violated simultaneously in order for injury or death to occur. With such a layering, we can live (literally) with less than perfect compliance with any one rule. However, inside a gun show or gun store, it is common and acceptable for most of those rules to be broken. The only rule remaining is that guns must be unloaded. And so we must have 100% compliance with that rule, including compliance from the lazy, ignorant, macho, self-important, etc, etc, etc.

    I welcome a cogent, rational rebuttal to this simple, straightforward observation.

    Charles

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    What 'risk' is there in an unloaded gun?
    What 'risk' is there in a loaded gun? The loaded guns aren't being handled at a gun show.
    I once had a physics professor explain that sometimes the reasonableness of a solution can be checked by seeing how it works in the extreme case. This tactic is sometimes used improperly as the logical fallacy of arguing the extremes.

    With that explanation and concession, I think it should be obvious that a "gun show" with only a single firearm present, and nobody handling that firearm except under the direct and very close supervision of a gun safety expert will be far less likely to see an ND than a gun show with 100,000 guns all being handled at the same time and without any direct oversight.

    Furthermore, a lot of NDs involve guns that were believed to be "unloaded."

    A gun on display by an exhibitor is far more likely to have multiple people confirm it is unloaded and to be handled only under some level of supervision than is a gun (presumably loaded or not) brought in by an attendee.

    Attendees are far more likely to have ammunition for their gun immediately on hand and even loose (or already in a magazine) than is an exhibitor.

    So yes, it is clear to anyone who thinks about it for a moment that additional "unloaded" guns, especially those brought in by attendees, do increase the risk. The only question is to what degree.

    As for loaded guns, the risk is obvious. How do you prevent someone from handling a loaded gun once he and his gun are in show? How do you determine from any distance whether a gun being handled and pointed down an aisle full of other patrons is loaded or not loaded? Whether it was brought in as a carry gun and removed from its holster or brought in unloaded and that unloaded condition has been confirmed and maintained?

    If you are handling, much less sighting a gun in Macey's I can assume you mean to do grave harm and react according. I cannot make that assumption inside a gun show and I'm disinclined to trust my life to some demonstrably false premise that carry guns are not routinely unholstered in such environments.

    Charles

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Yes, a carry weapon should remain holstered. But too often they do not. You can search the archives of this very site to find eye-witnesses to people clearly unholstering a carry gun inside a gun store so as to check the fit of one accessory or another. And once a carry gun is unholstered, it looks exactly like a non-carry gun being brought in to buy, sell, trade, return, check for accessories, etc. That is the problem.

    In most public settings, any unholstered gun rightly raises major concern. Indeed, one reason many of us carry is to be prepared to properly respond when we see someone else with an unholstered gun.

    How can you fail to see the marked difference between this usual situation and the unique environment inside a gun show or gun store where we expect to see unholstered guns, expect to see those guns being handled, pointed/sighted, perhaps even dry fired?

    Again, the rules of gun safety are designed such that multiple rules must be violated simultaneously in order for injury or death to occur. With such a layering, we can live (literally) with less than perfect compliance with any one rule. However, inside a gun show or gun store, it is common and acceptable for most of those rules to be broken. The only rule remaining is that guns must be unloaded. And so we must have 100% compliance with that rule, including compliance from the lazy, ignorant, macho, self-important, etc, etc, etc.

    I welcome a cogent, rational rebuttal to this simple, straightforward observation.

    Charles
    I do not "fail to see" what you seem to think make a gun show a major difference. But, you are presenting the anti-gunner argument FOR them. The same holds true no matter where someone is. You are for creating a GFZ where there are firearms.

    Is it "common and acceptable" for gun safety rules to be broken at a gun show or gun store? NO, a thousand times NO! Treat EACH firearm as if it were loaded, no MATTER where you are. A gun show is no different. And a gun show is NOT a reasonable place to require citizens to be unarmed. I know of no "rule of thumb" or "acceptance" in place at a gun show or gun store that allows any relaxation of the rules. It simply defies logic to assume such.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    I once had a physics professor explain that sometimes the reasonableness of a solution can be checked by seeing how it works in the extreme case. This tactic is sometimes used improperly as the logical fallacy of arguing the extremes.

    With that explanation and concession, I think it should be obvious that a "gun show" with only a single firearm present, and nobody handling that firearm except under the direct and very close supervision of a gun safety expert will be far less likely to see an ND than a gun show with 100,000 guns all being handled at the same time and without any direct oversight.
    Simply as a probability exercise, you are correct. The same will be said for any GFZ, like a school. And? That isn't a rational reason to disarm.
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper
    Furthermore, a lot of NDs involve guns that were believed to be "unloaded."
    Without a doubt. That is EXACTLY why there is no reasonableness to any acceptance of any "relaxation of the rules" while at a gun show.

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper
    A gun on display by an exhibitor is far more likely to have multiple people confirm it is unloaded and to be handled only under some level of supervision than is a gun (presumably loaded or not) brought in by an attendee.
    Of course. And the responsibility for the firearm carried by an attendee is the responsibility of the attendee. The attendee is at a gun show, and EACH PERSON there, including the exhibitors and the attendees should conform to ALL firearms safety rules, or not be in the room. Carry firearms are simply ones that should not be handled. Handling a carry firearm at a gun show should be reason for expulsion, NOT reason for entrance denial.
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper
    Attendees are far more likely to have ammunition for their gun immediately on hand and even loose (or already in a magazine) than is an exhibitor.
    ?? They sell ammo also. And someone did indicate that exhibitors are likely to be armed? And?

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper
    So yes, it is clear to anyone who thinks about it for a moment that additional "unloaded" guns, especially those brought in by attendees, do increase the risk. The only question is to what degree.
    No, that is not "clear." We are not speaking about any additional "unloaded" guns. We were speaking specifically about carry firearms, which I would expect to be loaded.

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper
    As for loaded guns, the risk is obvious. How do you prevent someone from handling a loaded gun once he and his gun are in show? How do you determine from any distance whether a gun being handled and pointed down an aisle full of other patrons is loaded or not loaded? Whether it was brought in as a carry gun and removed from its holster or brought in unloaded and that unloaded condition has been confirmed and maintained?
    You don't. Any more than you prevent it every day in public. EVERY PERSON who carries manages this act EVERY TIME THEY CARRY. Entering a gun show, or a sporting event, or a grocery store, or any other venue doesn't change it.

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper
    If you are handling, much less sighting a gun in Macey's I can assume you mean to do grave harm and react according. I cannot make that assumption inside a gun show and I'm disinclined to trust my life to some demonstrably false premise that carry guns are not routinely unholstered in such environments.

    Charles
    I make the assumption that ANY person sighting a firearm at another person is assuming harm. In a gun show or store is no different. Telling persons they must be unarmed in there doesn't change that. It only stops those who are willing to follow the rules, the same as ALL other gun-free zones.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    Simply as a probability exercise, you are correct. The same will be said for any GFZ, like a school.
    You seem to be missing the critical point here. With the exception of a gun show, it is generally illegal or at least highly discouraged socially to be handling a firearm out in public. This is the key difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    ... and EACH PERSON there, including the exhibitors and the attendees should conform to ALL firearms safety rules, or not be in the room. ... I make the assumption that ANY person sighting a firearm at another person is assuming harm. In a gun show or store is no different.
    I'm afraid I've failed to see why we have a disagreement. I've been dealing with reality while you seem to be dealing with some grand theory.

    Have you actually attended a gun show? Do you REALLY react the same way to someone handling a gun at a gun show that you do to someone handling a gun in a grocery store, at the mall, or at a school?

    Do you REALLY expect, even demand, that inside a crowded gun show nobody ever point a gun in an unsafe direction? That they never put their finger on the trigger when they don't want the gun to discharge?

    That simply isn't reality at any gun show I've ever attended. Sure, it is bad form to deliberately sight in on someone. But to momentary cover someone or something that you have less than zero desire to put a hole in? Simply not possible to avoid that in any show large enough to be called a gun show.

    Do you just assume the guy handling his gun, working the slide, maybe even sighting it on nothing in particular out and about in public is doing nothing amiss?

    Conversely, do you really assume that everyone inside a gun show who might inadvertently sweep or cover you with the muzzle of gun is intending to murder you? They must love you at the shows.

    I could snidely suggest that you come back to this discussion when you are ready to deal with reality.

    Instead, I'll suggest, for what it is worth, that you just avoid going to gun shows until you are the one running the show.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 11-11-2010 at 08:36 PM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    You seem to be missing the critical point here. With the exception of a gun show, it is generally illegal or at least highly discouraged socially to be handling a firearm out in public. This is the key difference.
    Really? Where is it "generally illegal" to handle a firearm in public? Especially in the same manner as at a gun show? Even if it were, what does that have to do with a gun show?



    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper
    I'm afraid I've failed to see why we have a disagreement. I've been dealing with reality while you seem to be dealing with some grand theory.
    We have a disagreement because you are ok with requiring citizens to disarm for this purpose, and I am not. You have not presented a valid argument for disarmament.

    Quote Originally Posted by quote=utbagpiper
    Have you actually attended a gun show? Do you REALLY react the same way to someone handling a gun at a gun show that you do to someone handling a gun in a grocery store, at the mall, or at a school?
    Yes, I have attended a gun show. And handling a gun was not the topic. Failure to follow established safety rules was the topic. You seemed to believe it is ok to not follow the established safety rules at a gun show; or at least felt it was typical to see, and not alarming.
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper
    Do you REALLY expect, even demand, that inside a crowded gun show nobody ever point a gun in an unsafe direction? That they never put their finger on the trigger when they don't want the gun to discharge?
    Why would you expect them to not follow established safety precautions?

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper
    That simply isn't reality at any gun show I've ever attended. Sure, it is bad form to deliberately sight in on someone. But to momentary cover someone or something that you have less than zero desire to put a hole in? Simply not possible to avoid that in any show large enough to be called a gun show.
    Without question. That doesn't equate to good reason to expect attendees to disarm, and THAT is the part that you have failed to justify.
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper
    Do you just assume the guy handling his gun, working the slide, maybe even sighting it on nothing in particular out and about in public is doing nothing amiss?
    Strawman. Ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper
    Conversely, do you really assume that everyone inside a gun show who might inadvertently sweep or cover you with the muzzle of gun is intending to murder you? They must love you at the shows.
    Strawman. That was not my statement, and you should easily be able to determine the difference between what I actually stated, and what you are misrepresenting here.


    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper
    I could snidely suggest that you come back to this discussion when you are ready to deal with reality.
    And you just did, in spite of your apparent desire to NOT do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper
    Instead, I'll suggest, for what it is worth, that you just avoid going to gun shows until you are the one running the show.

    Charles
    Nope, that is not necessary. It is sufficient to realize that a holstered, loaded carry firearm isn't a threat to me while I am at a gunshow.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  24. #24
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    All due respect.

    Charles
    Well said !

    I have a monthly table at a gun show here in Washington. I honestly don't want to have loaded firearms in the building. Why? Because there is ALWAYS someone who has his new and shinny and has to show it to his buddy who just can't get the concept that "CONCEALED MEANS CONCEALED."

  25. #25
    Regular Member UtahRSO's Avatar
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    Charles, I fully agree with you. Whenever there's lots of people, and guns are around, you're gonna have yahoos who don't observe safe practices. I'm going to be safe all the time and leave my carry gun in the holster at a gun show (uh-huh, but are YOU absolutely sure of me?), but I KNOW not everyone is going to be safe. I've been a range safety officer, and the stories I could tell you!!

    I was in a store a few years ago where they sell mega-bunches of guns. Most of the time, the customers (and certainly the people behind the counter) observe pretty good safe handling practices. But this one time... I got swept so many times by the guy behind the counter, I decided he would never be my shooting buddy!

    Oh yeah, you could say that the guns in the showcases and on the table at a gun show are all unloaded and everything is safe. You're probably 99.9999% right. But that many people, that many guns being handled..., a zip tie on the guns being brought in seems like a very minimum safety precaution. Zip ties can be cut so easily, it's not that big a deal, but being able to see that zip tie on someone's firearm is SO reassuring.

    Shel

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