Gun show open carry

utbagpiper said:

I once had a physics professor explain that sometimes the reasonableness of a solution can be checked by seeing how it works in the extreme case. This tactic is sometimes used improperly as the logical fallacy of arguing the extremes.

With that explanation and concession, I think it should be obvious that a "gun show" with only a single firearm present, and nobody handling that firearm except under the direct and very close supervision of a gun safety expert will be far less likely to see an ND than a gun show with 100,000 guns all being handled at the same time and without any direct oversight.

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Simply as a probability exercise, you are correct. The same will be said for any GFZ, like a school. And? That isn't a rational reason to disarm.

utbagpiper said:

Furthermore, a lot of NDs involve guns that were believed to be "unloaded."

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Without a doubt. That is EXACTLY why there is no reasonableness to any acceptance of any "relaxation of the rules" while at a gun show.

utbagpiper said:

A gun on display by an exhibitor is far more likely to have multiple people confirm it is unloaded and to be handled only under some level of supervision than is a gun (presumably loaded or not) brought in by an attendee.

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Of course. And the responsibility for the firearm carried by an attendee is the responsibility of the attendee. The attendee is at a gun show, and EACH PERSON there, including the exhibitors and the attendees should conform to ALL firearms safety rules, or not be in the room. Carry firearms are simply ones that should not be handled. Handling a carry firearm at a gun show should be reason for expulsion, NOT reason for entrance denial.

utbagpiper said:

Attendees are far more likely to have ammunition for their gun immediately on hand and even loose (or already in a magazine) than is an exhibitor.

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?? They sell ammo also. And someone did indicate that exhibitors are likely to be armed? And?

utbagpiper said:

So yes, it is clear to anyone who thinks about it for a moment that additional "unloaded" guns, especially those brought in by attendees, do increase the risk. The only question is to what degree.

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No, that is not "clear." We are not speaking about any additional "unloaded" guns. We were speaking specifically about carry firearms, which I would expect to be loaded.

utbagpiper said:

As for loaded guns, the risk is obvious. How do you prevent someone from handling a loaded gun once he and his gun are in show? How do you determine from any distance whether a gun being handled and pointed down an aisle full of other patrons is loaded or not loaded? Whether it was brought in as a carry gun and removed from its holster or brought in unloaded and that unloaded condition has been confirmed and maintained?

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You don't. Any more than you prevent it every day in public. EVERY PERSON who carries manages this act EVERY TIME THEY CARRY. Entering a gun show, or a sporting event, or a grocery store, or any other venue doesn't change it.

utbagpiper said:

If you are handling, much less sighting a gun in Macey's I can assume you mean to do grave harm and react according. I cannot make that assumption inside a gun show and I'm disinclined to trust my life to some demonstrably false premise that carry guns are not routinely unholstered in such environments.

Charles

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I make the assumption that ANY person sighting a firearm at another person is assuming harm. In a gun show or store is no different. Telling persons they must be unarmed in there doesn't change that. It only stops those who are willing to follow the rules, the same as ALL other gun-free zones.

wrightme said:

Simply as a probability exercise, you are correct. The same will be said for any GFZ, like a school.

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You seem to be missing the critical point here. With the exception of a gun show, it is generally illegal or at least highly discouraged socially to be handling a firearm out in public. This is the key difference.

wrightme said:

... and EACH PERSON there, including the exhibitors and the attendees should conform to ALL firearms safety rules, or not be in the room. ... I make the assumption that ANY person sighting a firearm at another person is assuming harm. In a gun show or store is no different.

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I'm afraid I've failed to see why we have a disagreement. I've been dealing with reality while you seem to be dealing with some grand theory.

Have you actually attended a gun show? Do you REALLY react the same way to someone handling a gun at a gun show that you do to someone handling a gun in a grocery store, at the mall, or at a school?

Do you REALLY expect, even demand, that inside a crowded gun show nobody ever point a gun in an unsafe direction? That they never put their finger on the trigger when they don't want the gun to discharge?

That simply isn't reality at any gun show I've ever attended. Sure, it is bad form to deliberately sight in on someone. But to momentary cover someone or something that you have less than zero desire to put a hole in? Simply not possible to avoid that in any show large enough to be called a gun show.

Do you just assume the guy handling his gun, working the slide, maybe even sighting it on nothing in particular out and about in public is doing nothing amiss?

Conversely, do you really assume that everyone inside a gun show who might inadvertently sweep or cover you with the muzzle of gun is intending to murder you? They must love you at the shows.

I could snidely suggest that you come back to this discussion when you are ready to deal with reality.

Instead, I'll suggest, for what it is worth, that you just avoid going to gun shows until you are the one running the show.

Charles

utbagpiper said:

You seem to be missing the critical point here. With the exception of a gun show, it is generally illegal or at least highly discouraged socially to be handling a firearm out in public. This is the key difference.

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Really? Where is it "generally illegal" to handle a firearm in public? Especially in the same manner as at a gun show? Even if it were, what does that have to do with a gun show?

utbagpiper said:

I'm afraid I've failed to see why we have a disagreement. I've been dealing with reality while you seem to be dealing with some grand theory.

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We have a disagreement because you are ok with requiring citizens to disarm for this purpose, and I am not. You have not presented a valid argument for disarmament.

quote=utbagpiper said:

Have you actually attended a gun show? Do you REALLY react the same way to someone handling a gun at a gun show that you do to someone handling a gun in a grocery store, at the mall, or at a school?

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Yes, I have attended a gun show. And handling a gun was not the topic. Failure to follow established safety rules was the topic. You seemed to believe it is ok to not follow the established safety rules at a gun show; or at least felt it was typical to see, and not alarming.

utbagpiper said:

Do you REALLY expect, even demand, that inside a crowded gun show nobody ever point a gun in an unsafe direction? That they never put their finger on the trigger when they don't want the gun to discharge?

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Why would you expect them to not follow established safety precautions?

utbagpiper said:

That simply isn't reality at any gun show I've ever attended. Sure, it is bad form to deliberately sight in on someone. But to momentary cover someone or something that you have less than zero desire to put a hole in? Simply not possible to avoid that in any show large enough to be called a gun show.

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Without question. That doesn't equate to good reason to expect attendees to disarm, and THAT is the part that you have failed to justify.

utbagpiper said:

Do you just assume the guy handling his gun, working the slide, maybe even sighting it on nothing in particular out and about in public is doing nothing amiss?

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Strawman. Ignored.

utbagpiper said:

Conversely, do you really assume that everyone inside a gun show who might inadvertently sweep or cover you with the muzzle of gun is intending to murder you? They must love you at the shows.

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Strawman. That was not my statement, and you should easily be able to determine the difference between what I actually stated, and what you are misrepresenting here.

utbagpiper said:

I could snidely suggest that you come back to this discussion when you are ready to deal with reality.

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And you just did, in spite of your apparent desire to NOT do that.

utbagpiper said:

Instead, I'll suggest, for what it is worth, that you just avoid going to gun shows until you are the one running the show.

Charles

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Nope, that is not necessary. It is sufficient to realize that a holstered, loaded carry firearm isn't a threat to me while I am at a gunshow.

All due respect.

Charles

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Well said !

I have a monthly table at a gun show here in Washington. I honestly don't want to have loaded firearms in the building. Why? Because there is ALWAYS someone who has his new and shinny and has to show it to his buddy who just can't get the concept that "CONCEALED MEANS CONCEALED."

Charles, I fully agree with you. Whenever there's lots of people, and guns are around, you're gonna have yahoos who don't observe safe practices. I'm going to be safe all the time and leave my carry gun in the holster at a gun show (uh-huh, but are YOU absolutely sure of me?), but I KNOW not everyone is going to be safe. I've been a range safety officer, and the stories I could tell you!!

I was in a store a few years ago where they sell mega-bunches of guns. Most of the time, the customers (and certainly the people behind the counter) observe pretty good safe handling practices. But this one time... I got swept so many times by the guy behind the counter, I decided he would never be my shooting buddy!

Oh yeah, you could say that the guns in the showcases and on the table at a gun show are all unloaded and everything is safe. You're probably 99.9999% right. But that many people, that many guns being handled..., a zip tie on the guns being brought in seems like a very minimum safety precaution. Zip ties can be cut so easily, it's not that big a deal, but being able to see that zip tie on someone's firearm is SO reassuring.

Shel

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm pointing any firearm I handle at an upward angle specifically so as not to sweep anyone, even with the firearm that has typically been checked by the salesperson and has ALWAYS been checked by me.

I'm ok with guns being loaded at gun shows. Unfortunately, it is a moot point here in NC, we can't carry in due to admission. (Other than those up for sale or such).

How about if rather than making sure that all guns are unloaded at gun shows that just before you walk in the door you make everyone recite from memory the four rules of gun safety. You would have to do it without any help just to be sure that you already know them before entering the show. That way everyone would know and follow all safety rules otherwise they wouldn't be allowed in. Not only would this provide a completely safe environment to look at and handle guns but would also provide a much less crowded show and actually provide room to handle a gun without having to sweep someone when picking up a gun to look at.