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Thread: I thought Daylight Savings time ends in November?

  1. #1
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    I thought Daylight Savings time ends in November?

    Then what's this? Apparently it ends tonight?

    At two o'clock antemeridian Pacific Standard Time of the *last Sunday in April each year the time of the state of Washington shall be advanced one hour, and at two o'clock antemeridian Pacific Standard Time of the last Sunday in October in each year the time of the state of Washington shall, by the retarding of one hour, be returned to Pacific Standard Time.

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=1.20.051

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    George Bush signed legislation or an order in (2005? 2007?) shifting the date around.

    Just more government screwing with you. In this case, your sleep pattern.

    I'm darned if I can find any constitutional authority for congress or the president declaring what time of day it is.
    Last edited by Citizen; 10-31-2010 at 06:36 PM.

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    Leave it to the Government to tell us what time it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    Leave it to the Government to tell us what time it is.
    Well, they already think they have unlimited power. Its only natural that they think they can adjust the stars in their courses, influencing Time itself.

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    For 2010, DST switches on Sunday, 7 November in the USA.
    Last edited by Dreamer; 10-31-2010 at 06:51 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    For 2010, DST switches on Sunday, 7 November in the USA.
    We'll probably get a tax increase for wearing out some sort of celestial clutch with all this time shifting.

    If the earth's iron core ever flops over and reverses the magnetic field, we'll know who to blame.

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    Requisite pedantry:
    Daylight Saving Time
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Why that's an excellent idea!

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    I want to know what they are doing with all the daylight they are saving and where are they saving it. Probably in some off shore bank in a numbered account at a high interest rate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    George Bush signed legislation or an order in (2005? 2007?) shifting the date around.

    Just more government screwing with you. In this case, your sleep pattern.

    I'm darned if I can find any constitutional authority for congress or the president declaring what time of day it is.
    US Constitution Article I Section 8:

    To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures


    Time is a form of measurement and the US Congress has the authority to set the standard for it.

    Not to be rude, but read the Constitution before you say you can't find the congressional authority for it. I'm a VERY STRONG supporter of Constitutional Congressional Limitations, but this is actually one of the few things that they ARE expressly authorized to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    US Constitution Article I Section 8:

    To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures

    Time is a form of measurement and the US Congress has the authority to set the standard for it.

    Not to be rude, but read the Constitution before you say you can't find the congressional authority for it. I'm a VERY STRONG supporter of Constitutional Congressional Limitations, but this is actually one of the few things that they ARE expressly authorized to do.
    I disagree. Weights and measures have to do with products being commerced. By no stretch of the imagination can one find the power to arbitrarily say sidereal midnight just shifted by 1 hour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    US Constitution Article I Section 8:

    To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures


    Time is a form of measurement and the US Congress has the authority to set the standard for it.

    Not to be rude, but read the Constitution before you say you can't find the congressional authority for it. I'm a VERY STRONG supporter of Constitutional Congressional Limitations, but this is actually one of the few things that they ARE expressly authorized to do.
    Excellent point. One thing we measure is time--and it is extremely important to commerce that we agree on time, both in the measure of its length and in the identification of points in time.

    I hadn't considered this. Thanks.

    It does raise an interesting point: Even though this would fall under the enumerated powers of Congress, it is left to the States to determine if they will use DST. It would actually be better if Congress used this enumerated power to effect more standardization. After all, that is why the power exists: to standardize measures, including time.
    Last edited by eye95; 10-31-2010 at 09:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I disagree. Weights and measures have to do with products being commerced. By no stretch of the imagination can one find the power to arbitrarily say sidereal midnight just shifted by 1 hour.
    Where do you find that weights and measures have anything to do with commerce? The weights and measures clause is separate from the commerce clause and not dependent on it at all...

    Weights and measures can constitute anything involving measurement. It gives justification for setting standards. The Congress under the weights and measures authority can set the legal width of rails, the font and capitalization shape and size of road signs, they can set the measurement of time, the measurement of distance, the measurement of weight, the measurement of calories, the measurement of density, measurements of radiation, etc.
    Last edited by boyscout399; 10-31-2010 at 09:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    Where do you find that weights and measures have anything to do with commerce? The weights and measures clause is separate from the commerce clause and not dependent on it at all...
    And even if it was, Eye95 makes a damn good point that A. DST is optional and B. that a standardized measurement of time is critical to commerce.

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    As long as people know when its time to vote then we're good.

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    I wonder what the U.S. Supreme Court thinks about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    I wonder what the U.S. Supreme Court thinks about this.
    It's never come to them. This clause was never a cause for concern in the ratification process. It was supported then and I believe it's still supported today.

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    You guys insist on overlooking the point, carefully making arguments around it.

    First, BoyScout, weights and measures doesn't have to say commerce in order for that to be the underlying reason. The 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination says nothing about being forced to give oaths ala the Star Chamber, yet that is one of its reasons. Even coining money and regulating the value thereof doesn't say anything about commerce, yet...duh...if you know what I mean. Weights and measures is for commerce, and taxation. Knowing the government today, it is probably even more about taxation.

    Now, as for measuring time, it is one thing to say 1 second is so many millions of ocillations of a cesium atom so all the GPS receivers and cell phones work. That is a measure of a second. We're talking about something else here. The length of a day was figured out astronomically a long time ago. Even changes in the calendar were more about measuring time and aligning better with the seasons, as I understand it, and perhaps lunar phases.

    Pretending to shift sidereal time (time based on the stars) by arbitrarily declaring what amounts to midnight happening 1 hour earlier or later is so far removed from any legitimate basis for measurement that it can't be reached. Even commerce does not depend on shifting the start and end of the day around twice a year. From what admittedly little reading I have on the subject, the most recent adjustment to the clock was for fuel savings at power plants. Oh, give me a break. As if fuel economy for power plants is within reach of making commerce regular or orderly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    You guys insist on overlooking the point, carefully making arguments around it.

    First, BoyScout, weights and measures doesn't have to say commerce in order for that to be the underlying reason. The 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination says nothing about being forced to give oaths ala the Star Chamber, yet that is one of its reasons. Even coining money and regulating the value thereof doesn't say anything about commerce, yet...duh...if you know what I mean. Weights and measures is for commerce, and taxation. Knowing the government today, it is probably even more about taxation.

    Now, as for measuring time, it is one thing to say 1 second is so many millions of ocillations of a cesium atom so all the GPS receivers and cell phones work. That is a measure of a second. We're talking about something else here. The length of a day was figured out astronomically a long time ago. Even changes in the calendar were more about measuring time and aligning better with the seasons, as I understand it, and perhaps lunar phases.

    Pretending to shift sidereal time (time based on the stars) by arbitrarily declaring what amounts to midnight happening 1 hour earlier or later is so far removed from any legitimate basis for measurement that it can't be reached. Even commerce does not depend on shifting the start and end of the day around twice a year. From what admittedly little reading I have on the subject, the most recent adjustment to the clock was for fuel savings at power plants. Oh, give me a break. As if fuel economy for power plants is within reach of making commerce regular or orderly.
    from The Heritage Guide to the Constitution:

    Rather, the purpose in granting this power was to facilitate domestic and international commerce by permitting the federal government to adopt and enforce national measurement standards based upon the prevailing consensus

    Sorry, but right now the prevailing consensus in time measurement includes a one hour shift in the spring and the fall...

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    from The Heritage Guide to the Constitution:

    Rather, the purpose in granting this power was to facilitate domestic and international commerce by permitting the federal government to adopt and enforce national measurement standards based upon the prevailing consensus

    Sorry, but right now the prevailing consensus in time measurement includes a one hour shift in the spring and the fall...
    Heck, science is not possible without an agreement on standards of measure. There are a handful of "fundamental" units of measure, one of which measures time.

    So, there is more than just commerce for which we need to set standards.

    I used to illustrate this idea by asking my students to tell me what time it was, using their various tools for establishing what point in time it was. Answers varied widely. I had an "atomic" clock in my classroom. I used to point to it and say, "Four times a day, a radio signal is sent from Fort Collins, Colorado, telling this clock what time it is. This clock then tells us what time it is, with as much precision and accuracy as it is capable of, according to the National Institute of Standards, which is responsible for ensuring consistency when we measure time, distance, mass, volume, etc."

    Even the founders knew we had to agree on measurements. They probably did not foresee the extent to which and the precision with which we measure things these days, but they knew we had to agree on terms to be able to communicate effectively--and that agreement had to be nation-wide.
    Last edited by eye95; 10-31-2010 at 10:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    SNIP Sorry, but right now the prevailing consensus in time measurement includes a one hour shift in the spring and the fall...
    Are you arguing the consensus, or the constitutionality?

    Remember, the consensus of many, many Americans is that you should just hand over your ID to a cop when requested. You should cooperate with the police; if you are doing nothing wrong, you should have nothing to hide.

    Again, fixing a standard of measurement is different from arbitrarily shifting.
    Last edited by Citizen; 10-31-2010 at 11:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Are you arguing the consensus, or the constitutionality?

    Remember, the consensus of many, many Americans is that you should just hand over your ID to a cop when requested. You should cooperate with the police; if you are doing nothing wrong, you should have nothing to hide.

    Again, fixing a standard of measurement is different from arbitrarily shifting.
    did you read the quote from the Heritage? The clause was put into the constitution to allow congress to set measures "according to the prevailing consensus." Measures are supposed to be set according to the prevailing consensus. So yes I'm arguing that the prevailing consensus for measuring time includes an arbitrary shift...

    Rights are not subject to the prevailing consensus, measures are, your argument about rights is not relevant to this subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    did you read the quote from the Heritage? The clause was put into the constitution to allow congress to set measures "according to the prevailing consensus." Measures are supposed to be set according to the prevailing consensus. So yes I'm arguing that the prevailing consensus for measuring time includes an arbitrary shift...

    Rights are not subject to the prevailing consensus, measures are, your argument about rights is not relevant to this subject.
    OK, I'm about to stop talking with you. Stop ignoring distinctions. This post. Or, else I walk away from the discussion. You can talk to the rest of the gang all you want; but I don't have to keep batting back your failures to think coupled with light insults.

    Setting measures according to consensus means the setting happens after the consensus. An example in another area would be Thomas Jefferson declaring the dollar as the monetary unit. He did not just up and decide to call the unit a dollar. All he was doing was declaring what was already occurring--people were regularly using the Spanish dollar coin.

    There was no goddam regular time shifting already occurring by consensus that congress and the president then codified into law. It was their forcing it on people by law that finally created the consensus that this is the way things are done in this country. And, even if there were, shifting is not setting a unit of measure.
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-01-2010 at 12:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    OK, I'm about to stop talking with you. Stop ignoring distinctions. This post. Or, else I walk away from the discussion. You can talk to the rest of the gang all you want; but I don't have to keep batting back your failures to think coupled with light insults.

    Setting measures according to consensus means the setting happens after the consensus. An example in another area would be Thomas Jefferson declaring the dollar as the monetary unit. He did not just up and decide to call the unit a dollar. All he was doing was declaring what was already occurring--people were regularly using the Spanish dollar coin.

    There was no goddam regular time shifting already occurring by consensus that congress and the president then codified into law. It was their forcing it on people by law that finally created the consensus that this is the way things are done in this country. And, even if there were, shifting is not setting a unit of measure.
    I did not mean to insult and I apologize if anything I said came across that way.

    Can you site your source where you say that there wasn't already a regular time shifting occuring when the US codified daylight savings time into law because Link shows that before the US codified daylight savings time into law it was adopted by Germany and Austria in 1916. It was then adopted by Belgium, Denmark, France, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Sweden, Turkey, and Tasmania. Nova Scotia and Manitoba with Britain following suit three weeks later. Then in 1917 Australia and Newfoundland adopted the standard. Then it was formally adopted into the United States 1918 when they saw that the prevailing consensus around Europe and the world was that this was going to be the standard for time.
    Last edited by boyscout399; 11-01-2010 at 02:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    SNIP Can you site your source where you say that there wasn't already a regular time shifting occuring when the US codified daylight savings time into law because...
    I'm betting you already understand that consensus in other countries does not support making a law here, so I won't argue that point.

    I did not have a cite; I made an educated guess. Ben Franklin proposed it, but I had heard nothing about it prior to the 20th century, and couldn't recall even vaguely when it might have been started. However, I could just see a buncha Maine or Iowa farmers' reactions to being told what time it was, as if a government dictate would affect when then they got up to milk the cows or went to bed. Remember that even into the 20th century America was predominantly a rural nation. That is an awful lot of rural folks being told when to get up or go to bed in a sense. Plus, I had never heard of any such thing--a consensus of setting clocks front and back twice a year. This last, coupled with my estimation that a population would just never make that tradition on their own were what decided it for me.

    However, a quick google turned up a wiki article. Just as one might suspect, DST was sufficiently unpopular that Congress abolished it after WWI. "Unpopular" equals no consensus, or rather it equals consensus running the other way: against.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dayligh..._United_States

    Even so, consensus or not, shifting is not measuring. Even if a majority of US citizens wanted DST, Congress has no authority under the weights and measures clause. Only if one stretches the commerce clause all out of shape can one plausibly assert congress has commerce authority.

    Now, before anybody comes back and points out "the wiki article says the transportation industry requested federal law for uniform time zones" and "the standard for changing an area of the country from one time zone to another is convenience of commerce" let me point out that there is a difference between setting a time zone under commerce clause authority, and shifting the time around twice a year. One might as well say there is no human activity that is out of reach of the commerce clause if a connected something comes in reach just because the first something was found to be within reach.
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-01-2010 at 02:42 AM.

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