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Thread: Anyone encounter this situation

  1. #1
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    Anyone encounter this situation

    I was at wal mart in west valley today and had my beretta in a serpa thigh holster. Standing in a rather long line, I kept feeling a slight tug on my pant leg and then a full on atomic wedggie style pull up on my pant leg. Quickly turning around to see a young kid (guessing around 13-14) trying to unholster my pistol. I had it in a level 3 serpa so he was having quite a difficult time.
    Now I know that what i did next was probably not the best but the child received a swift and painful lash across the back of his hand.
    And of course, the mother who was nose deep in the latest people magazine looked up and started hollering at me or striking her son.
    At which point I responded by scolding her and her son on why you should NEVER do that and why she needs to keep better tabs on her offspring. As well as educating her heathen on not ever touching a firearm.
    She then told the cashier to call the police. By now the officer on duty that usually hangs around that location comes by and asks me a few simple questions about my gun and if it's loaded and then proceeds to tell me to mind my temper a little better and to have a nice evening. Says nothing to the mother other than the child is lucky I noticed and a slap on the hand was all he got.
    Sorry for the rant but I had to share that. Anyone else have a similar experience? Any thoughts on my reaction?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigrscu View Post
    I was at wal mart in west valley today and had my beretta in a serpa thigh holster. Standing in a rather long line, I kept feeling a slight tug on my pant leg and then a full on atomic wedggie style pull up on my pant leg. Quickly turning around to see a young kid (guessing around 13-14) trying to unholster my pistol. I had it in a level 3 serpa so he was having quite a difficult time.
    Now I know that what i did next was probably not the best but the child received a swift and painful lash across the back of his hand.
    And of course, the mother who was nose deep in the latest people magazine looked up and started hollering at me or striking her son.
    At which point I responded by scolding her and her son on why you should NEVER do that and why she needs to keep better tabs on her offspring. As well as educating her heathen on not ever touching a firearm.
    She then told the cashier to call the police. By now the officer on duty that usually hangs around that location comes by and asks me a few simple questions about my gun and if it's loaded and then proceeds to tell me to mind my temper a little better and to have a nice evening. Says nothing to the mother other than the child is lucky I noticed and a slap on the hand was all he got.
    Sorry for the rant but I had to share that. Anyone else have a similar experience? Any thoughts on my reaction?
    I've never experienced this because I keep better track of what's going on around me. If I'm in a crowd I tuck my arm into my side and keep my elbow on the top of my firearm so that it can't be removed without moving my arm.

    As for thoughts on your reaction, it seems entirely appropriate to me, though I may have pushed him back hard while shouting "do not take my weapon." That would establish to all witnesses that you think the person is TAKING your weapon, not just touching it, and that's why he's getting pushed. Most state's force on force laws allow for lawful non-deadly physical force to prevent physical force against you.
    Last edited by boyscout399; 10-31-2010 at 10:46 PM.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigrscu View Post
    I was at wal mart in west valley today and had my beretta in a serpa thigh holster. Standing in a rather long line, I kept feeling a slight tug on my pant leg and then a full on atomic wedggie style pull up on my pant leg. Quickly turning around to see a young kid (guessing around 13-14) trying to unholster my pistol. I had it in a level 3 serpa so he was having quite a difficult time.
    Now I know that what i did next was probably not the best but the child received a swift and painful lash across the back of his hand.
    And of course, the mother who was nose deep in the latest people magazine looked up and started hollering at me or striking her son.
    At which point I responded by scolding her and her son on why you should NEVER do that and why she needs to keep better tabs on her offspring. As well as educating her heathen on not ever touching a firearm.
    She then told the cashier to call the police. By now the officer on duty that usually hangs around that location comes by and asks me a few simple questions about my gun and if it's loaded and then proceeds to tell me to mind my temper a little better and to have a nice evening. Says nothing to the mother other than the child is lucky I noticed and a slap on the hand was all he got.
    Sorry for the rant but I had to share that. Anyone else have a similar experience? Any thoughts on my reaction?
    I think you showed poor situational awareness in letting the 13-14 year old get to yank on your pistola.

    Hitting the kid was a bad mistake too.

    Could've escalated easily. Especially if the kid were with his dad instead of his mom.


    At least you had a holster with retention. That was smart.

    This is a good example of why OCers should be required to use them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HankT View Post

    This is a good example of why OCers should be required to use them.
    EEK! Required, no.... Encouraged to, yes... The responsible thing to do, yes... Legally responsible if the negligence in equipment leads to a discharge of the weapon, yes...

    But more government regulation is not the answer! It's the person's OWN responsibility how he carries his weapon and no one else's. If his poor decisions lead to injury, then he is responsible for that injury. But it's still HIS decision, not the government's.

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HankT View Post
    I think you showed poor situational awareness in letting the 13-14 year old get to yank on your pistola.

    Hitting the kid was a bad mistake too.

    Could've escalated easily. Especially if the kid were with his dad instead of his mom.


    At least you had a holster with retention. That was smart.

    This is a good example of why OCers should be required to use them.
    Read my lips: No Regulations, No Requirements.

    That being said, OP's SA was lacking, and something that needs to be worked on. Also, that is one reason I don't like thigh holsters for carrying in public. It's much harder to check non-visually IMO. A hip holster, or even a shoulder holster, is much easier to check without blatantly grabbing or constantly watching.

    ETA: Your reaction was the minimum I would have engaged in-a 'kid' who is in his teens is old enough to know what a gun is, and not to touch someone else's property. He knew exactly what he was doing, and he's lucky to have gotten off with a slap on the hand.
    Last edited by sultan62; 10-31-2010 at 11:07 PM.

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    EEK! Required, no.... Encouraged to, yes... The responsible thing to do, yes... Legally responsible if the negligence in equipment leads to a discharge of the weapon, yes...

    But more government regulation is not the answer! It's the person's OWN responsibility how he carries his weapon and no one else's. If his poor decisions lead to injury, then he is responsible for that injury. But it's still HIS decision, not the government's.
    +1

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    I don't have a thigh holster and at this point I will not!

    BTW at a company OFF DUTY gathering one of my female co-workers latched onto my retention holstered firearm (not a full on grab, but a jiggle type movement) from behind while I was in conversation with my boss and some others.... She got a firm reprimand that that action was to never be repeated. She has learned!

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    the kid is lucky

    At age 13-14 you're looking at your typical deviant. Even if he's rather young, he still knows what he's doing (granted there aren't existing mental issues). I believe you acted appropriately in that particular situation with things as they were, though if it were me, I don't think I would have slapped his hand... the kid would have been on the ground and I would have told the clerk to call police and tell them a teen tried to disarm you. In most states you would have been justified in defending yourself and others around you. I wish the responding Officer would have been far more thorough in speaking to the mother about keeping an eye on her child, especially if he has tendencies like those. It's very good you had that Serpa 3, though. Good job.

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    In hindsight

    I would like to thank all that gave input. In hindsight I was probably sort of zoning out a little from being line for so darn long, although that is no excuse for being unaware. Afterall, carrying a gun in any manner requires a level of awareness that is above most people, and for that I will be taking a second look at myself and my training.
    Although it may have seemed extreme, I was trained (from being overseas) that your rifle is your life, and your sidearm is second only to your rifle, so I think some instinct and a little knee jerk snap back to reality probably added to that. But non the less, I learned a good lesson and will take a positive step from here. Thanks again for all the response, it's good to hear all different angles and views on it.
    As for the level 3 serpa, it's the only way I carry when I carry openly, I'm faster than most on a draw with a level 1 and as fast as I am with a level 2, so I find it's piece of mind and simply should be a fairly common practice. If you work with it and practice drawing from it, you find yourself just as proficient with it as a speed holster. Just my two cents on extra retention.

    Thanks again to all, please keep the comments comming.
    Last edited by sigrscu; 11-01-2010 at 02:08 AM. Reason: Spelling error

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    Regular Member turbodog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HankT View Post
    I think you showed poor situational awareness in letting the 13-14 year old get to yank on your pistola.
    Nonsense. I have no doubt he knew the kid was there, but like most of us probably would have done, he gave him a low threat priority. You can try and be as aware as you want, but sooner or later you have to focus your attention on whatever your doing there in the first place. No one has eyes in the back of their head.

    Hitting the kid was a bad mistake too.
    Myself, I think the kid should have gotten smacked across the face instead of the hand. Would have made more of an impression on the idiot. Yeah, I know that would have just led to more trouble for the OP, but it's still my opinion.

    Could've escalated easily. Especially if the kid were with his dad instead of his mom.
    Hell, my dad would have hit me again if I had tried that!


    At least you had a holster with retention. That was smart.

    This is a good example of why OCers should be required to use them.
    That at least, is something I can agree with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog
    Quote Originally Posted by HankT
    At least you had a holster with retention. That was smart.

    This is a good example of why OCers should be required to use them. That at least, is something
    That at least, is something I can agree with.
    The vast majority of people who OC in this country are currently required to use a retention holster.

    We should be no different. The benefits of mandated retention holsters for OC are obvious, the detriments miniscule, and the impact on our right to keep and bears arms is nil.

    It's a no-brainer, really.

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    Beware of the evil paradigm of consideration, expectation, then requirement.

    Beware of the evil paradigm of consideration, expectation, then requirement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HankT View Post
    The vast majority of people who OC in this country are currently required to use a retention holster.

    We should be no different. The benefits of mandated retention holsters for OC are obvious, the detriments miniscule, and the impact on our right to keep and bears arms is nil.

    It's a no-brainer, really.
    Use of a retention holster by police, armed guards, armored car personnel, and military is dictated by policy of their employer, not by law. Plenty of officers while OCing off duty use open top holsters (whether or not that's a wise decision is debatable)

    It should be a personal responsibility, not a mandate of law.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman
    Quote Originally Posted by HankT

    The vast majority of people who OC in this country are currently required to use a retention holster.

    We should be no different. The benefits of mandated retention holsters for OC are obvious, the detriments miniscule, and the impact on our right to keep and bears arms is nil.

    It's a no-brainer, really.
    Beware of the evil paradigm of consideration, expectation, then requirement.
    What do you think about this one, Master Doug? Do you think that a lawful requirement for a rention holster for all OCers would produce benefits and would be a "reasonable regulation?"

    And what is your analysis of sigrscu's performance as described in the OP? Think he did well? Poorly? In-between? Please opine, MD.

    P.S. I'm so glad you took time today to check out the Utah forum. Shows your, uhm, interest in all parts of this great country of ours. Most people would ignore a state so far from his home state...
    :-)
    Last edited by HankT; 11-01-2010 at 10:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigrscu View Post
    I would like to thank all that gave input. In hindsight I was probably sort of zoning out a little from being line for so darn long, although that is no excuse for being unaware. Afterall, carrying a gun in any manner requires a level of awareness that is above most people, and for that I will be taking a second look at myself and my training.
    Although it may have seemed extreme, I was trained (from being overseas) that your rifle is your life, and your sidearm is second only to your rifle, so I think some instinct and a little knee jerk snap back to reality probably added to that. But non the less, I learned a good lesson and will take a positive step from here. Thanks again for all the response, it's good to hear all different angles and views on it.
    As for the level 3 serpa, it's the only way I carry when I carry openly, I'm faster than most on a draw with a level 1 and as fast as I am with a level 2, so I find it's piece of mind and simply should be a fairly common practice. If you work with it and practice drawing from it, you find yourself just as proficient with it as a speed holster. Just my two cents on extra retention.

    Thanks again to all, please keep the comments comming.
    That's the most important thing IMO. No one is perfect, and we all make mistakes. Fortunately, nothing too bad came with yours, but it was a good wake up call.

    Also, thank you for acknowledging that you made a mistake instead of becoming defensive. Many would have gotten taken personal offense at it instead of manning up and admitting the mistake and learning from it. Kudos.

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    To be honest

    I have mixed feelings about retention holsters being mandated. I think that they are a solid piece of mind and simply take some getting used to. I think that most people should simply make the attempt at giving it a try, simply for the fact that you never know what could or may happen, after all, that is why we are carrying. Its to plan for what might and the unknown. As far as being mandated, I think that states that have more stringent open carry law, or outlaw it completely, should see it as an opportunity for compromise between it's citizens and their (IMHO) anti gun freak politicians. If we, as the open carrying public, made the effort to show "he we are willing to use retention holsters as a requirement in trade for a better open carry policy" it would be worth it.
    Chop down the walls one brick at a time.
    Just me ranting some more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HankT View Post
    The vast majority of people who OC in this country are currently required to use a retention holster.

    We should be no different. The benefits of mandated retention holsters for OC are obvious, the detriments miniscule, and the impact on our right to keep and bears arms is nil.

    It's a no-brainer, really.
    The vast majority of people who OC in this country are also currently required to only carry one of a very small number of specifically approved firearms. Should this requirement apply to those of us who are not employed by a police agency?

    The vast majority of people who OC in this country are also currently required to abide by some fairly strict dress codes while carrying. Should all of us be subject to some kind of dress code while OCing?

    I'm very much in favor of using retention holster while carrying. I've also posted several times encouraging OCers to consider and be aware of how their personal appearance and demeanor, including dress and grooming, visible tats or piercings, etc, affect the public's perception of OCers generally. But I'm very much opposed to any legal mandates in these regards. And I trust it goes without saying that I and every other sane person is very much opposed to mandates or limits on which models or calibers of hand guns might be legally OC'd. So I fail to see how your example of cops being required to use retention holsters can be logically applied to the rest of us.

    But, in the spirit of being highly reasonable, I would accept a legal requirement to carry in a retention holster just as soon as I am afforded the legal benefits given to those who are currently legally required to use a retention holster. In other words, when I can carry my OC gun in a retention holster into those places where I can't currently carry, but cops can, and when any self-defense shooting on my part is defended by the government, rather than me being viewed as a suspect and having to pay for my own defense, I'll happily accept a requirement to use a retention holster.

    Until that time, as I've amply demonstrated with dress codes and limits on exactly which models or calibers can be carried, it is a "no brainer" that it makes little sense to compare the sovereigns to the hired help. Police officers are public employees. They exercise only delegated powers and are rightly subject to any number of policies or restrictions or rules that make no sense to impose on someone exercise his rights.

    Charles

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    Quote Originally Posted by sg_pilot View Post
    At age 13-14 you're looking at your typical deviant. Even if he's rather young, he still knows what he's doing (granted there aren't existing mental issues). I believe you acted appropriately in that particular situation with things as they were, though if it were me, I don't think I would have slapped his hand... the kid would have been on the ground and I would have told the clerk to call police and tell them a teen tried to disarm you. In most states you would have been justified in defending yourself and others around you. I wish the responding Officer would have been far more thorough in speaking to the mother about keeping an eye on her child, especially if he has tendencies like those. It's very good you had that Serpa 3, though. Good job.
    Unless of course the child has a mental issue, like menatl retardation/autism, etc... He may not of had any idea that what he was doing was wrong.

    Striking a person is battery in most cases.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    @ Venator

    At age 13-14 you're looking at your typical deviant. Even if he's rather young, he still knows what he's doing (granted there aren't existing mental issues) . I believe you acted appropriately in that particular situation with things as they were, though if it were me, I don't think I would have slapped his hand... the kid would have been on the ground and I would have told the clerk to call police and tell them a teen tried to disarm you. In most states you would have been justified in defending yourself and others around you. I wish the responding Officer would have been far more thorough in speaking to the mother about keeping an eye on her child, especially if he has tendencies like those. It's very good you had that Serpa 3, though. Good job.

    Putting a person on the ground while using justifiable force if other efforts failed, in most states, would be legal. That is exactly what I would have done in that situation if the child hadn't let go of my weapon. That's serious stuff, Venator. If the child had obvious mental illness, this would all be completely different, like I stated before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sg_pilot View Post




    Putting a person on the ground while using justifiable force if other efforts failed, in most states, would be legal. That is exactly what I would have done in that situation if the child hadn't let go of my weapon. That's serious stuff, Venator. If the child had obvious mental illness, this would all be completely different, like I stated before.
    If you put the 13-14 year old kid on the ground (or just hit him as OP did) and his father shows up, what do you think he'll do?

    What do you then do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HankT View Post
    If you put the 13-14 year old kid on the ground (or just hit him as OP did) and his father shows up, what do you think he'll do?

    What do you then do?
    Easy question with an easy answer, if he attacks you, you use a degree of justifiable force necessary to prevent the unlawful assault.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    Easy question with an easy answer, if he attacks you, you use a degree of justifiable force necessary to prevent the unlawful assault.
    Yeah, "easy."

    Just continue the escalation. That you "started". . .

    "Easy."

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    Easy question with an easy answer, if he attacks you, you use a degree of justifiable force necessary to prevent the unlawful assault.
    +1
    Quote Originally Posted by HankT View Post
    Yeah, "easy."

    Just continue the escalation. That you "started". . .

    "Easy."
    Your definition of "started" is flawed IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HankT View Post
    Yeah, "easy."

    Just continue the escalation. That you "started". . .

    "Easy."
    No, I believe the unlawful force--the unwanted touching, perhaps what might even be reasonably viewed as an attempt to gain control of the OP's deadly weapon--was started by the teenager who touched/grabbed the firearm.

    What is the proper response for a 13 or 14 year old who walks up and grabs your crotch, or your wife's crotch or breasts? Or who walks up and punches you? Are you really going to argue that fondling your firearm or even attempting to gain control of it is any less serious than fondling your or your wife's/daughter's groin or breasts, or landing a punch?

    I should think that in any of these cases a slap on the hand and a stern verbal reprimand is hardly an escalation of force.

    A 13 year old gaining control of a loaded, ready to use firearm is a very serious matter regardless of whether he gains that control with full knowledge and intent, or even just goofing around not fully realizing what he is doing--though I hasten to add that by 13 any person not suffering from some mental development disability should be as capable of understanding why not to grab a firearm as he capable of understanding why not to jump in front of a moving automobile.

    Hank, you cannot logically recognize the danger involved in a person--any person including a 13 year old--getting control of another's firearm and thus suggest that retention holsters be legally mandated for OC and then turn around and act as if the attempt (overt and knowing or somewhat ignorant) to gain control of that firearm is so benign as to not justify at least a slapped hand and a verbal reprimand.

    So long as we are playing around with "what ifs", we might just as well ask "what if the OP had noticed someone getting too close to his gun, had given a verbal command to back off, but the person kept trying to touch or grab the gun?" Then what? Run away? Respond with some degree of physical force to physically prevent access to the firearm? Or allowed continued access because the person reaching for the gun appears to be younger than whatever magical age you think justifies some physical response?

    Either retention of our firearms justifies some minimum physical response or it doesn't. Which is it?

    To draw an analogy, while I use a retention holster while OCing, I would no more rely wholly upon that holster to safeguard my firearm than I would rely upon my firearm's built in safeties (manual and automatic) to prevent it from firing. At the end of the day, I, and I alone an responsible to make sure that the trigger doesn't get pulled unless I fully intend for my firearm to go "bang." In like manner, at the end of the day, whatever mechanical devices I may have employed to assist me, I remain responsible to do all I can and must to assure that my firearm doesn't fall into the wrong hands.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 11-02-2010 at 12:23 AM.

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    And to amplify what Charles has said above....

    Who knows what the intent was with the gun grab? Was the "grabber" intending to use the newly acquired firearm in a felonious assault upon the gun owner? In this particular described situation maybe not, BUT JUST HOW MANY 10-13 year olds are ALREADY HEAVILY INVOLVED IN GANG ACTIVITY?

    From my perspective---- ANY attempt to forcibly disarm me by someone other than a KNOWN LEO will be met with WHATEVER degree of force is needed to prevent the firearm from leaving my possession--- up to and including lethal force if the situation justifies it.

    If a hand slap and a verbal reprimand is sufficient (my one and only experience to date-- related earlier in this forum (I believe)) then great, if more force is needed then more force will be applied!

    "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" Gee, a law of physics fits real well here!

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