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Thread: .327 Magnum as a self defense caliber?

  1. #1
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    .327 Magnum as a self defense caliber?

    I recently learned this "new" caliber hit the market a couple of years ago (2008). First I have heard of it and I am very interested in possibly buying one of these.
    From the reviews I have been able to read, the feedback seems quit positive.
    I may consider this as a BUG or even for use by my wife.
    Has anyone fired and had experience with this caliber?

    Thanks

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    .327FM gets pretty good write ups. my concern would be that the ammo is not so prevalent.

  3. #3
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Yes, ammo availability was a consideration. The shop I deal with says they can keep it in stock reasonably well. As I stated, the reviews I read were positive for this caliber; but I would like some opinions from people here that have fired it.
    Thanks

  4. #4
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    I looked at it when it first came out, especially since it was offered in some of the Ruger Revolvers I like so much. I have never shot one, but like that you can shoot multiple .32 calibers from the same pistol.

    http://www.ruger.com/products/sp101/...eets/5759.html

    http://www.ruger.com/products/gp100/...eets/1748.html

    I picked up the following as a BUG recently:

    http://www.sigsauerguns.com/sig-saue...auer-p238-hdw/

    Since it is a Locked-Breech Design, it soaks up recoil. This one is a little heavier than the standard P238 (HD designation) and is a limited production run.

  5. #5
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Just watched a short video on it. Recoil doesn't seem bad. I'm rather concerned with their claim it's somewhere between 38+P's and a light load 357 for energy and stopping power. Guess I'll have to do a bit more research before I make up my mind on this purchase.

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    Regular Member SlowDog's Avatar
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    IMO it would be ok as long as you did considerable practice. Reason I say this is because lighter calibers for self defense requires much better shot placement. I sometimes carry My Bersa 380 so I train with it for proper shot placement. Two quick shots to the chest and then aim for the cranial-ocular area....ie the nose area.
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    I've put about 40-50 rounds of 115 grain Federals through a Ruger SP101.
    Somewhat less recoil than .357 125 grain in another Ruger also 3in.
    For me it's sort of a "yawn, who cares" type of thing....the gun is the same size
    and weight as the .357. If you want less recoil and noise shoot .38 in the .357.
    I did not shoot it with any .32 special so maybe somebody who was VERY recoil
    shy may find some value in that aspect of it.
    I've come to believe there's no magic bullet.....if you want energy on the target
    you're going to have to absorb some into your hands.
    Dave
    Last edited by DaveP; 11-01-2010 at 01:27 PM.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveP View Post
    I've put about 40-50 rounds of 115 grain Federals through a Ruger SP101.
    Somewhat less recoil than .357 125 grain in another Ruger also 3in.
    For me it's sort of a "yawn, who cares" type of thing....the gun is the same size
    and weight as the .357. If you want less recoil and noise shoot .38 in the .357.
    I did not shoot it with any .32 special so maybe somebody who was VERY recoil
    shy may find some value in that aspect of it.
    I've come to believe there's no magic bullet.....if you want energy on the target
    you're going to have to absorb some into your hands.
    Dave
    +1
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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Thanks guys.
    I have a Bersa .380 and light load .38's she uses now.
    I was just kinda wondering if their claim of equal to a light load .357 mag had any merit with comparable ballistics. Kinda thinking it won't be worth the money; compared to what I already have to use.

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    If you want stopping power with lower recoil, you might consider a 5.7.

    A 350 has more gumption than a 327 anyhow.

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    5.7x28mm would be an option but its a full frame handgun, with a large grip. recoil is similar to a .22LR and muzzle velocity starts at 2034 FPS for the SS195LF projectile. the round look like a minny 5.56 round. is extremely accurate, and has a standard magazine capacity of 20 rounds, a magazine extender can be added for a total capacity of 30 rounds. its also very light! even with the extended magazine! and it comes with 3 magazines also, or at least it did.

    its an exceptional handgun! i had one for a few years when it first came out, and shot several thousand rounds through it, very nice shooter! its the only handgun chameberd for this round however i believe the PS90 might qualify as a MI pistol, that little beauty has a 50 round standard magazine, and is the semi-auto version of the P90 sub-machine gun.
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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    If you don't mind waiting a bit, the Kel-Tec PMR-30 may be of interest to you also.

    It holds and shoots 31 rounds of .22 Magnum (.22 WMR) which has virtually identical ballistics (and in my opinion more devastating wound channels) than the 5.7x28mm. The gun is three quarters of the price less than the price of a FN-57, and the ammo is half the price. If you're interested in ballistics comparisons, I can show you the comparisons.

    They're just starting production of the PMR-30 and though they have about 700 of them released now, they haven't started mass production yet. Once they do, I'll be getting one for my wife being that she's very recoil shy.

    Keep that in mind for new and upcoming things while we're at it.
    Last edited by malignity; 11-01-2010 at 10:08 PM.
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  13. #13
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    The 5.7x28mm is designed to punch a vest and a 22 mag won't.




    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    If you don't mind waiting a bit, the Kel-Tec PMR-30 may be of interest to you also.

    It holds and shoots 31 rounds of .22 Magnum (.22 WMR) which has virtually identical ballistics (and in my opinion more devastating wound channels) than the 5.7x28mm. The gun is three quarters of the price less than the price of a FN-57, and the ammo is half the price. If you're interested in ballistics comparisons, I can show you the comparisons.

    They're just starting production of the PMR-30 and though they have about 700 of them released now, they haven't started mass production yet. Once they do, I'll be getting one for my wife being that she's very recoil shy.

    Keep that in mind for new and upcoming things while we're at it.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Certain rounds of 5.7x28 can, yes, if you get the steel core V-Max. Natively it cannot. According to multiple online websites, so can .22 WMR with the right ammunition. Keep in mind, .22 WMR and .22LR are VERY different. The bullet itself between the two are very similar, with the shape and ~125fps being the only real difference.

    Again though...

    FN-57: $1199
    Kel-Tec PMR-30: $275

    5.7x28: $29/box
    .22 WMR: $12/box


    ~125fps isn't worth the extra cost imo.

    To me, the choice is pretty simple, but to each his own I guess.
    Last edited by malignity; 11-02-2010 at 02:54 AM.
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    geez that's an ugly thing :/

  16. #16
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    It appears that upon further research that both the 5.7x28mm AND .22WMR MUST be fired from a RIFLE to penetrate a vest. The FN-57 will not penetrate a vest, only a PS90. Same essentially with the .22WMR.
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    .327 seems like a handy, multipurpose round. Given similar bullet designs and ballistics, I doubt if a BG will collapse immediately after being shot with a .357 but shrug off a .327. I'd love to see a marlin lever action chambered for .327.

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elKgG2W6_N0


    Actually in standard FMJ the 5.7x28 will punch a type II-A vest. Yes the steel cored ammo will do far better. I have yet to see a .22 magnum penetrate a vest of that type. I have seen on go through a military flack vest but those are designed for lower velocity shrapnel only, not high velocity directed hits. When I did demo's for American Body armor I just don't remember any .22 Magnum capable to punching a vest of any quality. And we did many demo's for Police depts live, including multiple hits from MP-5's in full auto mode. Frankly I am still not impressed with the 5.7x28 round, it lacks knock down unless you deliver burst, auto, or several quick succession shots. I will stick to my 357 magnum and after a few well placed shots short of a trauma plate they are gonna hurt bad.

    Mozambique drill!



    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    Certain rounds of 5.7x28 can, yes, if you get the steel core V-Max. Natively it cannot. According to multiple online websites, so can .22 WMR with the right ammunition. Keep in mind, .22 WMR and .22LR are VERY different. The bullet itself between the two are very similar, with the shape and ~125fps being the only real difference.

    Again though...

    FN-57: $1199
    Kel-Tec PMR-30: $275

    5.7x28: $29/box
    .22 WMR: $12/box


    ~125fps isn't worth the extra cost imo.

    To me, the choice is pretty simple, but to each his own I guess.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  19. #19
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post

    Frankly I am still not impressed with the 5.7x28 round, it lacks knock down unless you deliver burst, auto, or several quick succession shots.

    Fort Hood shooting...

    13 dead, 30 wounded. Tragic yes, but something to be learned from it. He used an FN-57. He also had a .357 revolver which was not used. It's deadly enough.
    Last edited by malignity; 11-02-2010 at 10:51 AM.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    It's a cartridge where they decided they wanted to take a really small, really light handgun bullet and give it just enough velocity to work with HP rounds. 115 grains, just above .30", this is not exactly a purpose built powerhouse.

    But you do have more than enough energy to nicely expand hollow points, perhaps giving it about as much energy as a conservative .40 S&W.

    My issue with it is that it's a double action with 6 shots. Setting aside my bitch that there are almost no truly small single action hideout guns in 9mm or even .380, I'd rather have a semi automatic with a heavier bullet and a larger magazine capacity. You can still get good penetration with a bullet twice as heavy going half as fast, and often even get away with using hollow points. Plus, considering that revolvers are inherently larger, you can get a more powerful semi automatic which is perhaps smaller.

    If I wanted a gun to fill this role and could accept the idea of a DA trigger, I'd probably take a Kahr 9mm, or maybe a G26 which would solve the trigger issues. Many other guns offer .40 S&W with little to no addition in size, just a bit more recoil.

    If you really want one, you should get one. But from a standpoint of sheer usefulness, I can't think of many reasons why I'd buy one. :-/
    Last edited by Michigander; 11-02-2010 at 11:31 AM.
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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    Coming from someone who has faced live fire dead isn't always dead.

    people often die long after a gun shot wound due to blood loss. I don't shoot to kill I shoot to stop. I spent Months on N.I.J. Studies with guys being hit 21, 26 and 32 times and still returning fire. One such case I studied was two Illinois State troopers who stopped a biker who opened fire. Both troopers had Smith and Wesson model 59's. The Biker was hit 21 times and still returned fire pinning the troopers behind their car. Finally the biker passed out from blood loss but that was almost tens minutes after he sustained 21 hits. The troopers were almost out of ammo at that point. Now the ammo running out is obviously dumb, but that day when you get into a sustained firefight you will know why I point this out, when a minute is an hour and time drags on waiting for someone to stop his assault is more than enough time for him to get in a lucky shot. I carried a Smith and Wesson 1006 when I was very active with Bail recovery work for good reason. I didn't want a 15 shots fired scenario where the media questions why I shot some fool 15 or 17 times, and doesn't say that he kept shooting through all that. I carried a backup of a 3 inch model 29 with special loads that were right between a 44 special and magnum loading. Both were very capable on shot stoppers, as is the 357 magnum.

    Now in retirement I do carry a 9mm loaded with CORBONS 115 gr JHP at 1430 plus fps out of that 5 inch barrel. As everyone knows the Corbons are proven man stoppers in that loading. They still run a hot 1350 in a 3.5 to 4 inch barrel.

    So yes even a .22 rim fire might kill but I am impatient and want the fight to stop quickly as possible to reduce anyone from getting hurt or killed. Once I open fire or engage an active shooter I have a responsibility to end the fight fast mitigate any innocents from getting killed b him (shooter).

    Many of the dead at fort hood survived a long time and bled out if you read the report. That place was locked down for hours and many didn't see an ambulance ride for a long period of time due to the chaos. The official report criticized that whole lack of containment and control situation. But in shootings all too often victims spend the golden hour laying on the ground or too late in transit to the hospital. I will stick to what is proven to work at stopping a fight. You can buy all those Uber fancy calibers which won't stop a gun fight if you wish.

    I figure I can stop him with my speeding freight train bullet a whole bunch faster than your "death of a thousand cuts rounds".






    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    Fort Hood shooting...

    13 dead, 30 wounded. Tragic yes, but something to be learned from it. He used an FN-57. He also had a .357 revolver which was not used. It's deadly enough.
    Last edited by Bailenforcer; 11-02-2010 at 11:44 AM. Reason: big hands small keyboard = typos
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    Actually in standard FMJ the 5.7x28 will punch a type II-A vest. Yes the steel cored ammo will do far better.
    I don't consider kevlar vests to be a serious attempt to keep ones self safe. Aside from the head shots you mentioned, anyone with some basic tooling and reloading gear can make extremely effective kevlar busting ammo. Anyone with any mechanical know how could get this done over the course of an afternoon.

    For the record, I don't do this because I don't see myself needing to shoot up kevlar vests any time soon, and also steel cores are a terribly dangerous ricochet issue. Plus I think it's probably illegal. But it's good not to kid ourselves that Kevlar will keep anyone safe. If a user is serious, he or she should be wearing a rifle plate vest.
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  23. #23
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    They keep reinventing the wheel to trap more people into buying a weapon they will soon get rid of.

    There is almost an endless list of calibers which fell by the wayside.

    Here's my view as I have carried for 36 years and have seen death in the face a few times.

    Get what is a proven STOPPER not killer. if I stab you 36,000 times with a needle you will die but how long will this take? How many rounds will you fire at me and what are my odds of getting dead?

    I prefer to hit you with a sledge hammer to the face than a fishing pole. I know which one has the potential to stop you.

    My advice is to stick with what works and not with what you hope will work.

    In an auto the .45 acp, 10 MM, and .40 are proven stoppers. And a 9 MM loaded with Corbons or a proper load will work. 115 to 125 grain JHPs running fast!

    Revolvers are nothing to sneeze at. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyipV03stDQ

    I prefer a .357 magnum revolver for a few reasons.

    1. less recoil than a .44 or .41 magnum. Quicker recovery/followup shots.

    2. Proven effective over a few decades with a 125 grain JHP running over 1325 FPS.

    Now I have been doing ballistics testing since the 1970's and I laugh at the FBI Geeks who keep over the years changing their recommendations over and over. They still can't figure it out.
    What I have noticed over the years and decades there is a certain magic number that everyone misses.

    Here it is.

    1. Over 1330 Feet per second

    2. .33 caliber or greater.

    3. never less than 115 Grain JHP and the semi jacketed tend to do better at slightly less speed than a fully jacketed Hollow point. If it is a full jacked HP then it must exceed 1330. Anything less than 115 grain tends to fragment too much.

    Now before the over penetration fanatics get going I will add that penetration is always an issue PERIOD and the round that is fast enough to expand that JHP will have over penetration issues. That's logical, so knowing how and when to shoot is paramount. I have been around long enough to see those manufacturer magic rounds fail each time, and then the New improved round fails also. It's like selling detergent we always see NEW AND IMPROVED! and they suck. We will see another 100 rounds and bullet types offered and still the ones that always have worked will still be on top. We can't reinvent the wheel guys. Maybe someday, but not in our lifetime.

    Practice drop shooting I have dome this for years where I drop and shoot to improve the angle of attack to reduce innocents getting hit. Shooting from a low firing position can work great if practiced and rounds hitting the bad guy from the floor at a 30 to 45 degree angle will reduce the danger to the innocent and confound the attacker. I also practice positioning myself so the bullets IF fired from me will hit a back stop. IE: wall cash register counter ect. When confronted I always try to gain a position if possible before gun play happens. yes I know that's not always possible but more often than not it is.

    I never fell for "New and Improved" I prefer Proven.








    Quote Originally Posted by petrophase View Post
    .327 seems like a handy, multipurpose round. Given similar bullet designs and ballistics, I doubt if a BG will collapse immediately after being shot with a .357 but shrug off a .327. I'd love to see a marlin lever action chambered for .327.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    Agreed

    I brought the issue up because the stated reason for the caliber was vests. Many people here may not know this, but even in the Greater Detroit area cops are finding more vests on bad guys than ever before. Most PDW's are designed to punch a vest. When we did any tactical Personal protection work we always had someone with a M-4 variant with us just in case. I still have my custom built M-4 with a 12.5 barrel and yes it's properly registered. had to say that because someone will try and make issue of that. Being not a small framed man I can carry it slung under a coat without people knowing if need be. I also am huge fan of the HK 53 A3, for that purpose. .

    No vest is a sure solution to getting shot. many train for the Mozambique drill.




    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    I don't consider kevlar vests to be a serious attempt to keep ones self safe. Aside from the head shots you mentioned, anyone with some basic tooling and reloading gear can make extremely effective kevlar busting ammo. Anyone with any mechanical know how could get this done over the course of an afternoon.

    For the record, I don't do this because I don't see myself needing to shoot up kevlar vests any time soon, and also steel cores are a terribly dangerous ricochet issue. Plus I think it's probably illegal. But it's good not to kid ourselves that Kevlar will keep anyone safe. If a user is serious, he or she should be wearing a rifle plate vest.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    What I have noticed over the years and decades there is a certain magic number that everyone misses.

    Here it is.

    1. Over 1330 Feet per second

    2. .33 caliber or greater.

    3. never less than 115 Grain JHP and the semi jacketed tend to do better at slightly less speed than a fully jacketed Hollow point. If it is a full jacked HP then it must exceed 1330. Anything less than 115 grain tends to fragment too much.

    Now before the over penetration fanatics get going I will add that penetration is always an issue PERIOD and the round that is fast enough to expand that JHP will have over penetration issues. That's logical, so knowing how and when to shoot is paramount. I have been around long enough to see those manufacturer magic rounds fail each time, and then the New improved round fails also.
    I greatly enjoyed reading this. It makes quite a lot of sense in terms of handgun rounds.

    However, I would note that there needs to be points to these numbers where temporary cavity expansion or bullet weight over comes the numbers. For example, a well engineered 800 ish FPS .45 HP round should expand okay in many circumstances. Also note that with a .223 round, it also won't matter, because the FPS may well be over 3000, and the bullet may be under 80 grains, but it will still make a temporary hole which is quite large. Maybe that's off topic since we were talking about handguns, but it still illustrates a point.

    So in your opinion, what is the "cut off point" for these figures?
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