.327 Magnum as a self defense caliber?

Coming from someone who has faced live fire dead isn't always dead.

people often die long after a gun shot wound due to blood loss. I don't shoot to kill I shoot to stop. I spent Months on N.I.J. Studies with guys being hit 21, 26 and 32 times and still returning fire. One such case I studied was two Illinois State troopers who stopped a biker who opened fire. Both troopers had Smith and Wesson model 59's. The Biker was hit 21 times and still returned fire pinning the troopers behind their car. Finally the biker passed out from blood loss but that was almost tens minutes after he sustained 21 hits. The troopers were almost out of ammo at that point. Now the ammo running out is obviously dumb, but that day when you get into a sustained firefight you will know why I point this out, when a minute is an hour and time drags on waiting for someone to stop his assault is more than enough time for him to get in a lucky shot. I carried a Smith and Wesson 1006 when I was very active with Bail recovery work for good reason. I didn't want a 15 shots fired scenario where the media questions why I shot some fool 15 or 17 times, and doesn't say that he kept shooting through all that. I carried a backup of a 3 inch model 29 with special loads that were right between a 44 special and magnum loading. Both were very capable on shot stoppers, as is the 357 magnum.

Now in retirement I do carry a 9mm loaded with CORBONS 115 gr JHP at 1430 plus fps out of that 5 inch barrel. As everyone knows the Corbons are proven man stoppers in that loading. They still run a hot 1350 in a 3.5 to 4 inch barrel.

So yes even a .22 rim fire might kill but I am impatient and want the fight to stop quickly as possible to reduce anyone from getting hurt or killed. Once I open fire or engage an active shooter I have a responsibility to end the fight fast mitigate any innocents from getting killed b him (shooter).

Many of the dead at fort hood survived a long time and bled out if you read the report. That place was locked down for hours and many didn't see an ambulance ride for a long period of time due to the chaos. The official report criticized that whole lack of containment and control situation. But in shootings all too often victims spend the golden hour laying on the ground or too late in transit to the hospital. I will stick to what is proven to work at stopping a fight. You can buy all those Uber fancy calibers which won't stop a gun fight if you wish.

I figure I can stop him with my speeding freight train bullet a whole bunch faster than your "death of a thousand cuts rounds".

malignity said:

Fort Hood shooting...

13 dead, 30 wounded. Tragic yes, but something to be learned from it. He used an FN-57. He also had a .357 revolver which was not used. It's deadly enough.

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Bailenforcer said:

Actually in standard FMJ the 5.7x28 will punch a type II-A vest. Yes the steel cored ammo will do far better.

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I don't consider kevlar vests to be a serious attempt to keep ones self safe. Aside from the head shots you mentioned, anyone with some basic tooling and reloading gear can make extremely effective kevlar busting ammo. Anyone with any mechanical know how could get this done over the course of an afternoon.

For the record, I don't do this because I don't see myself needing to shoot up kevlar vests any time soon, and also steel cores are a terribly dangerous ricochet issue. Plus I think it's probably illegal. But it's good not to kid ourselves that Kevlar will keep anyone safe. If a user is serious, he or she should be wearing a rifle plate vest.

They keep reinventing the wheel to trap more people into buying a weapon they will soon get rid of.

There is almost an endless list of calibers which fell by the wayside.

Here's my view as I have carried for 36 years and have seen death in the face a few times.

Get what is a proven STOPPER not killer. if I stab you 36,000 times with a needle you will die but how long will this take? How many rounds will you fire at me and what are my odds of getting dead?

I prefer to hit you with a sledge hammer to the face than a fishing pole. I know which one has the potential to stop you.

My advice is to stick with what works and not with what you hope will work.

In an auto the .45 acp, 10 MM, and .40 are proven stoppers. And a 9 MM loaded with Corbons or a proper load will work. 115 to 125 grain JHPs running fast!

Revolvers are nothing to sneeze at. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyipV03stDQ

I prefer a .357 magnum revolver for a few reasons.

1. less recoil than a .44 or .41 magnum. Quicker recovery/followup shots.

2. Proven effective over a few decades with a 125 grain JHP running over 1325 FPS.

Now I have been doing ballistics testing since the 1970's and I laugh at the FBI Geeks who keep over the years changing their recommendations over and over. They still can't figure it out.
What I have noticed over the years and decades there is a certain magic number that everyone misses.

Here it is.

1. Over 1330 Feet per second

2. .33 caliber or greater.

3. never less than 115 Grain JHP and the semi jacketed tend to do better at slightly less speed than a fully jacketed Hollow point. If it is a full jacked HP then it must exceed 1330. Anything less than 115 grain tends to fragment too much.

Now before the over penetration fanatics get going I will add that penetration is always an issue PERIOD and the round that is fast enough to expand that JHP will have over penetration issues. That's logical, so knowing how and when to shoot is paramount. I have been around long enough to see those manufacturer magic rounds fail each time, and then the New improved round fails also. It's like selling detergent we always see NEW AND IMPROVED! and they suck. We will see another 100 rounds and bullet types offered and still the ones that always have worked will still be on top. We can't reinvent the wheel guys. Maybe someday, but not in our lifetime.

Practice drop shooting I have dome this for years where I drop and shoot to improve the angle of attack to reduce innocents getting hit. Shooting from a low firing position can work great if practiced and rounds hitting the bad guy from the floor at a 30 to 45 degree angle will reduce the danger to the innocent and confound the attacker. I also practice positioning myself so the bullets IF fired from me will hit a back stop. IE: wall cash register counter ect. When confronted I always try to gain a position if possible before gun play happens. yes I know that's not always possible but more often than not it is.

I never fell for "New and Improved" I prefer Proven.

petrophase said:

.327 seems like a handy, multipurpose round. Given similar bullet designs and ballistics, I doubt if a BG will collapse immediately after being shot with a .357 but shrug off a .327. I'd love to see a marlin lever action chambered for .327.

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Agreed

I brought the issue up because the stated reason for the caliber was vests. Many people here may not know this, but even in the Greater Detroit area cops are finding more vests on bad guys than ever before. Most PDW's are designed to punch a vest. When we did any tactical Personal protection work we always had someone with a M-4 variant with us just in case. I still have my custom built M-4 with a 12.5 barrel and yes it's properly registered. had to say that because someone will try and make issue of that. Being not a small framed man I can carry it slung under a coat without people knowing if need be. I also am huge fan of the HK 53 A3, for that purpose. .

No vest is a sure solution to getting shot. many train for the Mozambique drill.

Michigander said:

I don't consider kevlar vests to be a serious attempt to keep ones self safe. Aside from the head shots you mentioned, anyone with some basic tooling and reloading gear can make extremely effective kevlar busting ammo. Anyone with any mechanical know how could get this done over the course of an afternoon.

For the record, I don't do this because I don't see myself needing to shoot up kevlar vests any time soon, and also steel cores are a terribly dangerous ricochet issue. Plus I think it's probably illegal. But it's good not to kid ourselves that Kevlar will keep anyone safe. If a user is serious, he or she should be wearing a rifle plate vest.

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Bailenforcer said:

What I have noticed over the years and decades there is a certain magic number that everyone misses.

Here it is.

1. Over 1330 Feet per second

2. .33 caliber or greater.

3. never less than 115 Grain JHP and the semi jacketed tend to do better at slightly less speed than a fully jacketed Hollow point. If it is a full jacked HP then it must exceed 1330. Anything less than 115 grain tends to fragment too much.

Now before the over penetration fanatics get going I will add that penetration is always an issue PERIOD and the round that is fast enough to expand that JHP will have over penetration issues. That's logical, so knowing how and when to shoot is paramount. I have been around long enough to see those manufacturer magic rounds fail each time, and then the New improved round fails also.

Click to expand...

I greatly enjoyed reading this. It makes quite a lot of sense in terms of handgun rounds.

However, I would note that there needs to be points to these numbers where temporary cavity expansion or bullet weight over comes the numbers. For example, a well engineered 800 ish FPS .45 HP round should expand okay in many circumstances. Also note that with a .223 round, it also won't matter, because the FPS may well be over 3000, and the bullet may be under 80 grains, but it will still make a temporary hole which is quite large. Maybe that's off topic since we were talking about handguns, but it still illustrates a point.

So in your opinion, what is the "cut off point" for these figures?

Michigander said:

Setting aside my bitch that there are almost no truly small single action hideout guns in 9mm or even .380...

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Here is what I found in .380 - Sig Sauer P238 HDW. Small and very concealable, Single Action, Locked Breech, 6 + 1 Capacity, SigLite Night Sites. The only downside I have found is trigger pull being more than I would like, but that can be changed!

http://www.sigsauerguns.com/sig-sauer-photos/sig-sauer-p238-hdw/

http://www.sigsauer.com/products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=67&productid=289

PDinDetroit said:

Here is what I found in .380 - Sig Sauer P238 HDW. Small and very concealable, Single Action, Locked Breech, 6 + 1 Capacity, SigLite Night Sites. The only downside I have found is trigger pull being more than I would like, but that can be changed!

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The 238/Mustang are quite interesting. They stand alone as among the easiest to shoot accurately and lightest recoiling pocket guns available in .380.

The problem I have with them is being squeamish about SAO for pocket carry, and downright against most thumb safeties. If they had grip safeties, I'd be more interested, but still squeamish.

The only other .380 hideout option I consider appropriate is the Kahr .380. No manual safety, fairly light in recoil, slide release lever, and magazine release where it should be. The problem is that unlike the Glock it was designed based on, it fails to have a short trigger reset, instead having a far too long, if smooth and fairly pleasant pull.

Clearly I prefer DA/SA or striker fired with a short reset for any carry gun, particularly those which I will conceal. The problem is that the smallest option is the Beretta .32's which like to crack at the frame and have ever so little power. The next size up is the P-64 and SMC 918 which both are large and heavy with still recoil and thumb safeties. Once you get to this size, similarly sized 9mm's and .40's in DAO are available.

It seems like there should be a huge market for DA/SA .380 pocket guns with all the modern fixin's, but it's like no one in the USA thinks that a defensive gun with almost no power should be shot accurately, and the few that do are okay with SAO.

We have found it hard to gather enough volunteers to provide themselves for further testing lol.

The rifle analogy falls under the hydrostatic shock principle as evidenced by small bullet at extreme velocities causing catastrophic wound channels.

I did find some of the wound channel evidence of the Glazer safety slug similar to that of a high velocity rifle wound despite the rapid deceleration designed into the round. We sacrificed a couple of well soaked roasts to simulate blood enriched flesh and found the wound channels to be somewhat spectacular even if shallow by design. This makes one wonder what a over 2000 FPS 357 round would do in a 125 to 158 grain semi JHP bullet style.

The well engineered .45 JHP in flight captures more air (parachute effect) that a smaller .33 caliber and all things equal may always open better. This is a guess of course.... But remember the increased bullet weight hammering that hollow point may also aid in expansion. As a long time .45 acp hardballer and one who has carried a 45 acp for over 20 years I still love that old beast.

I have played with the notion of going to a Glock 10 MM even if the barrel length is shorter than I want. I prefer a 5 inch barrel in a duty or primary weapon.


If I had the funds I could do more research on the subject, but N.I.J. studies prove there are some consistent winners in shootings data. This of course in comparative loadings. Over 50 years of data put the .357 magnum on top with the .45 acp a very close second. Lacking any numbers in the .41 and .44 magnum shootings one can accept the data would if available prove both of those performers. This lead to the Federal/FBI adaptation of the 10 MM for a time but politics and correctness ruled and the .40 took over. The reduced recoil and reduced grip size was an issue with tiny hands and the lack of serious training efforts to learn how to handle the slight differences killed the 10 MM as well as politics.
Frankly the 10 MM was impressive enough to make me change from my beloved 45 acp back then. I went to the Smith & Wesson 1006 as mentioned in another post.

I am NO fan of Ballistic gel as it is a poor medium to replicate wounds in human beings. But it's a great visual aid never the less and even if it is a misrepresentation.

Most gun lovers have no idea or never were told that someone who takes an exact same wound/caliber/bullet factor sitting down will show different wound channel that someone who has been running and or was agitated and full of adrenalin. The muscle mass and blood engorgement is different enough to cause a different wound channel all other things equal.

There is no magic bullet, but I will stick with a over 1350 FPS JHP and higher caliber when possible. Speed kills.....

In a nut shell there is no known cut off point because there is a lack of data.

Michigander said:

I greatly enjoyed reading this. It makes quite a lot of sense in terms of handgun rounds.

However, I would note that there needs to be points to these numbers where temporary cavity expansion or bullet weight over comes the numbers. For example, a well engineered 800 ish FPS .45 HP round should expand okay in many circumstances. Also note that with a .223 round, it also won't matter, because the FPS may well be over 3000, and the bullet may be under 80 grains, but it will still make a temporary hole which is quite large. Maybe that's off topic since we were talking about handguns, but it still illustrates a point.

So in your opinion, what is the "cut off point" for these figures?

Click to expand...

a 147 gr 9mm will do the job also, FMJ works but not as well as a 147 defense designed hollow point. and the military ball ss109 green tip is a 75 grain bullet coming out at 3000 fps+ thats a mover, however the steel core penetrator of the same 5.56 tend to fly right through a person not leaving the same permanent wound channel but leaving a much smaller temporary cavitaion cavity due to the lack of a tumble effect that the ss109 green tip has on a person, primarily due to its lead core. the diffrence in exit wounds is VERY noticeable!

the five seven SS192 and SS195 are the only rounds worths useing in the gun, the 197 is not as ballistically good as the 2 originals. they don't test out as well IMO not in jell and not through cloths. the first 2 rounds i mentioned have very deep hollow cones before you reach the core of the round, the tumble almost from impact on tissue causeing maximum wounding channels both temporary and permenant that is key with such a small round. the V-MAX bullet used in the 197 has a shollower hollow point which is then covered by a plastic tip, great for intial penetration poor for intial tumble.:uhoh:


i currently use a 147gr federal critical defense round as my PDR it opens well enough but in winter i will switch to a +p in preperation for heavy winter clothes. same grain weight. as in all self defense shootings shot placement is key. and a first shot hit is also very important, whomever gets the most critical hits first wins, even though the winner might die later, if protecting a loved one for me its still a win. death for me is not preferrable!!! but doing it to protect a loved one is acceptable.

i do prefer the tried and true .45ACP but its a little to expensive for me to maintain my level of training, so i switched over to 9mm till i make enough cash to go back to 45. i can confidently say i can do what i need to just as well with a 9mm as a .45, both are proven effective rounds, with good quality self defense ammo both will work well. there are all kinds of arm chair ninjas who will break down what someone did in seconds after the fact, but what really counts is who prevailed in the fight your life? you or the BG?

personally i don't care if someone used the most awesome high speed round with the most expensive high tech newest firearm out there! use a rusty nail! but once in that fight for your life never ever give up! fight till your dead or your agressor is. period.

one last thing, theres no such thing as a fair fight! fight to win and do it anyway you can, anyone who says "lets fight fair" is only trying to gain an advantage over you and has already decided that the way your currently fighting, or they way you appear that your about to fight is a fight they are reasonably sure they can't win! so "fight fair" translates to "let me decide the rules so i can stack them in my favor!"
anyone who ever says something like play fair in any situation is only trying to gain an advantage.

define drop shooting for me.

It's a term lacking a term. I have practiced shooting from low angles when the presumption of over penetration and innocents are present. So we have practiced dropping low or even to ones knees while shooting at a standing target. This gives a almost 45 degree angle of attack to the BG.

It's one of many techniques we have practiced to counter different scenarios.

NHCGRPR45 said:

define drop shooting for me.

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I have no use for the 5.7x28 round. I have a nice M-4 variant that does the job much better.
With the 12.5 barrel I use the heavier bullet weights (62 to 68) in a hollow point. The increased breach pressures in the short barrel assure proper gas system operation. The 55 grain is not good for barrels under 16 inches as they leave the barrel too fast to develop enough pressure in the gas system to be reliable. We have seen malfunctions with short barrels and once we went heavier on the bullet weight all the issues stopped.

I agree on your 9MM suppositions. I have used the 124 and 147 grain also. I have a couple cases 2000 rds of ball FMJ ammo that I practice with as well. I prefer the higher velocity 115 to 124 grain bullets.

Growing up in Detroits Mack and Connors and Clark Park areas I have learned winning a fight is all that matters. Loosing = dead. So there is no fair in fight.

NHCGRPR45 said:

a 147 gr 9mm will do the job also, FMJ works but not as well as a 147 defense designed hollow point. and the military ball ss109 green tip is a 75 grain bullet coming out at 3000 fps+ thats a mover, however the steel core penetrator of the same 5.56 tend to fly right through a person not leaving the same permanent wound channel but leaving a much smaller temporary cavitaion cavity due to the lack of a tumble effect that the ss109 green tip has on a person, primarily due to its lead core. the diffrence in exit wounds is VERY noticeable!

the five seven SS192 and SS195 are the only rounds worths useing in the gun, the 197 is not as ballistically good as the 2 originals. they don't test out as well IMO not in jell and not through cloths. the first 2 rounds i mentioned have very deep hollow cones before you reach the core of the round, the tumble almost from impact on tissue causeing maximum wounding channels both temporary and permenant that is key with such a small round. the V-MAX bullet used in the 197 has a shollower hollow point which is then covered by a plastic tip, great for intial penetration poor for intial tumble.:uhoh:


i currently use a 147gr federal critical defense round as my PDR it opens well enough but in winter i will switch to a +p in preperation for heavy winter clothes. same grain weight. as in all self defense shootings shot placement is key. and a first shot hit is also very important, whomever gets the most critical hits first wins, even though the winner might die later, if protecting a loved one for me its still a win. death for me is not preferrable!!! but doing it to protect a loved one is acceptable.

i do prefer the tried and true .45ACP but its a little to expensive for me to maintain my level of training, so i switched over to 9mm till i make enough cash to go back to 45. i can confidently say i can do what i need to just as well with a 9mm as a .45, both are proven effective rounds, with good quality self defense ammo both will work well. there are all kinds of arm chair ninjas who will break down what someone did in seconds after the fact, but what really counts is who prevailed in the fight your life? you or the BG?

personally i don't care if someone used the most awesome high speed round with the most expensive high tech newest firearm out there! use a rusty nail! but once in that fight for your life never ever give up! fight till your dead or your agressor is. period.

one last thing, theres no such thing as a fair fight! fight to win and do it anyway you can, anyone who says "lets fight fair" is only trying to gain an advantage over you and has already decided that the way your currently fighting, or they way you appear that your about to fight is a fight they are reasonably sure they can't win! so "fight fair" translates to "let me decide the rules so i can stack them in my favor!"
anyone who ever says something like play fair in any situation is only trying to gain an advantage.

Click to expand...

Bailenforcer said:

I have no use for the 5.7x28 round. I have a nice M-4 variant that does the job much better.
With the 12.5 barrel I use the heavier bullet weights (62 to 68) in a hollow point. The increased breach pressures in the short barrel assure proper gas system operation. The 55 grain is not good for barrels under 16 inches as they leave the barrel too fast to develop enough pressure in the gas system to be reliable. We have seen malfunctions with short barrels and once we went heavier on the bullet weight all the issues stopped.

I agree on your 9MM suppositions. I have used the 124 and 147 grain also. I have a couple cases 2000 rds of ball FMJ ammo that I practice with as well. I prefer the higher velocity 115 to 124 grain bullets.

Growing up in Detroits Mack and Connors and Clark Park areas I have learned winning a fight is all that matters. Loosing = dead. So there is no fair in fight.

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i also have no practical use for a 5.7x28mm round in a pistol, while fun to shoot it is not a "proven man stopper" in my OP yes it did well in ft. hood but what i would like to know is how many times each individual was hit, where the hits were, and how long before medics with med packs arrived to start treating the wounded.

also about your 12.5inch AR is it also a machine gun?

NHCGRPR45 said:

i also have no practical use for a 5.7x28mm round in a pistol, while fun to shoot it is not a "proven man stopper" in my OP yes it did well in ft. hood but what i would like to know is how many times each individual was hit, where the hits were, and how long before medics with med packs arrived to start treating the wounded.

also about your 12.5inch AR is it also a machine gun?

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the better question is it a MI pistol, or is it a 12.5 inch barreled upper on a registered lower?

I don't own a .223, I haven't extensively tested any either. But my understanding has always been that the round gets most of its effectiveness either from temporary expansion, or fragmentation, both of which are reliant on velocity. In going to a shorter barrel, the common wisdom which everything I've learned would suggest, is that you lose a tremendous amount of knock down power.

I've mentioned before how my 20" barreled SKS with HP ammo has underperformed compared to 10mm HP at up close wet pack targets. A bullet less than half the weight of the x39 at roughly the same velocity, I'd have thought that even with particularly good HP ammo, it would be about as effective as shooting 9mm HP ammo from a handgun, if 4 or 5 times louder. Is there a reason other than up close blast pressure why this provides any significant advantage?

No not a machine gun. But it is properly registered as I said earlier. I try to limit what I say about my collection in a public forums to the basics. I might add I was a dealer for many years decades even, and I am familiar with Title II and NFA weapons. ....enough said.

NHCGRPR45 said:

i also have no practical use for a 5.7x28mm round in a pistol, while fun to shoot it is not a "proven man stopper" in my OP yes it did well in ft. hood but what i would like to know is how many times each individual was hit, where the hits were, and how long before medics with med packs arrived to start treating the wounded.

also about your 12.5inch AR is it also a machine gun?

Click to expand...

Remembering I mentioned this particular weapon was used on special assignments and for specific close support reasons. It had to be as concealable as possible under professional Protection conditions. My HK-91 would have been too noticeable .

Michigander said:

I don't own a .223, I haven't extensively tested any either. But my understanding has always been that the round gets most of its effectiveness either from temporary expansion, or fragmentation, both of which are reliant on velocity. In going to a shorter barrel, the common wisdom which everything I've learned would suggest, is that you lose a tremendous amount of knock down power.

I've mentioned before how my 20" barreled SKS with HP ammo has underperformed compared to 10mm HP at up close wet pack targets. A bullet less than half the weight of the x39 at roughly the same velocity, I'd have thought that even with particularly good HP ammo, it would be about as effective as shooting 9mm HP ammo from a handgun, if 4 or 5 times louder. Is there a reason other than up close blast pressure why this provides any significant advantage?

Click to expand...

Not a pistol and properly registered. Enough said.

NHCGRPR45 said:

the better question is it a MI pistol, or is it a 12.5 inch barreled upper on a registered lower?

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so its not a MI pistol, so here my problem.

if it has a butstock, and a 12.5 inch barrel the its a SBR and cannot in anyway be registered legaly in MI not even if it was a machine gun, the barrel is to short. i have been in contact with both BATFE and MSP and there is no way to register a SBR in MI period. you can have a a Class 3 type weapon by federal law and even if said weapon is properly registered with the BATFE if its not a machine gun with a barrel over 16inches, then it is contra band in MI. i had a legal blackside suppressor perfectly legal with the ATF per federal law, but in MI it is contra-band. don't post about illegal activity.

now, i don't want a ******* match but its very clear by both the ATF and MSP there is no way to register a SBR in MI. it may have been registered out of state then brought in and maybe you didn't know better, like i did with the suppressor. but now you know. the burden of proof is on you. and if you were a title 2 dealer what was your old FFL post it or PM it for verification.

NHCGRPR45 said:

so its not a MI pistol, so here my problem.

if it has a butstock, and a 12.5 inch barrel the its a SBR and cannot in anyway be registered legaly in MI not even if it was a machine gun, the barrel is to short.

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No, a machine gun can have any length of barrel on it. The Cox opinion seemed to cover all NFA weapons, but it was interpreted by everyone to for sure cover full auto's, and consider registration to be the same as licensing. You can put whatever length barrel you want on a registered machine gun, per state and federal law. If you go to a full auto shoot, you will see typically a dozen or so Stens, MAC's, and other similarly configured under 16" barreled machine guns. Never in the history of Federal or Michigan state law has it been illegal to have a registered machine gun with any length of barrel. Even after 86 when I believe it was that tyrant Frank Kelly signed away our machine gun rights in the wake of the 86 ban, up until Mike Cox halfway reinstated them, those with C&R licenses and C&R guns, as well as those who already had registered full autos before Kelly's assault on freedom were perfectly legal to have them.

Also note that there is a way to have a semi auto SBR, it's got to be a C&R gun. Mauser handguns with broomhandle stocks are a good example. I've seen C&R holders bring them to the pit from time to time.