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Thread: Open letter to recently hired Wisconsin legislators

  1. #1
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    Open letter to recently hired Wisconsin legislators

    Congratulations, we have decided you are the right person for the job. We hired you because we believe you will:
    1. Reduce the size of government
    2. Reduce the scope of government
    3. Improve the budgetary situation
    4. Leave more money in the pockets of taxpayers
    5. Team with your co-workers to address challenges facing Wisconsin


    Forty-eight states currently allow civilians to carry concealed firearms. Sadly, Wisconsin is one of the two states that infringe upon a constitutionally protected right by ensuring that criminals are the only civilians allowed to protect themselves with a concealed firearm.

    One means of rectifying this situation is to implement a concealed carry permit system in Wisconsin. Under such a system, civilians could apply for a permit, pay a permit fee, demonstrate proficiency with a weapon, and be allowed to lawfully carry a concealed firearm. This would:
    -require additional government staff to administer the permit system, increasing the size of government
    -add another aspect of control to the governmental responsibilities, expanding the scope of government
    -require, in addition to more staff, some means of managing the database of permit holders and providing access to local law enforcement. The State's recent history with purchasing new database systems has been fraught with schedule delays and cost overruns.
    -remove money from taxpayer pockets to fund permit application fees and required training classes
    -deny timely access to concealed carry to those whose decision is driven by situations involving domestic abuse, harassment, stalking, or other criminal activity

    Please compare these points with items 1-4, above.

    Should you decide to pursue a permit system, plan on spending considerable time with your colleagues debating (for starters):
    -which level of government will manage the permit system (state, county or local, and if state, which department? if local or county, how will the state provide oversight to ensure proper program execution?)
    -what proficiency will need to be demonstrated to acquire a permit?
    -what will the training requirements be?
    -how long will a permit last?
    -who's authorized to provide training, and what are their required qualifications?
    -what is the appeals process if denied a permit?
    -what is the permit (ID card, paper license, photolaminate?), where do you acquire it, etc?

    Please consider item 5, above.

    A second option to address the concealed carry issue in Wisconsin would be to simply repeal the current ban on carrying a concealed weapon, SS. 941.23. Governor-elect Walker has stated he would sign such a repeal.
    A ban repeal would be simple to take up in the legislature, would not expand government size, scope, or budget, and would not cost taxpayers a dime.

    As you consider the best means to allow law-abiding Wisconsin residents the means to protect themselves, please keep in mind that your employment status is probationary, and up for review during the next election cycle.

    Again, congratulations, and welcome to the team.

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    Very nice. I might suggest a reference to precedent - that Vermont has (always?) had this way of handling second amendment rights, and that Alaska adopted constitutional carry in ______, without blood in the streets, followed recently by Arizona.

    Few people, particularly politicians, like being the pioneers out in front trailblazing. Following someone else's lead is much more comfortable, and the WI pols may be completely unaware of constitutional carry as a current reality for (some of) America's citizens. Heck, if you can locate the names & contact information for appropriate legislators in those three states who the WI pols can reach out to, all the better - include that information, too.

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    good post

    would it be ok to use your post as a template for reaching out to my own representatives? unless i missed it you forgot that the WI GOP platform removed the permit wording from its stance on conceal carry. Rhendrickson makes good points too. Everyone on this forum should be emailing their new legislators so they know what we want. DO NOT SETTLE FOR PERMITS

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    Well said. I couldn't have said it better. Welcome to OCDO-Wisconsin.

    Well said. I couldn't have said it better. Welcome to OCDO-Wisconsin.
    Quote Originally Posted by GVR View Post
    Congratulations, we have decided you are the right person for the job. We hired you because we believe you will:
    1. Reduce the size of government
    2. Reduce the scope of government
    3. Improve the budgetary situation
    4. Leave more money in the pockets of taxpayers
    5. Team with your co-workers to address challenges facing Wisconsin


    Forty-eight states currently allow civilians to carry concealed firearms. Sadly, Wisconsin is one of the two states that infringe upon a constitutionally protected right by ensuring that criminals are the only civilians allowed to protect themselves with a concealed firearm.

    One means of rectifying this situation is to implement a concealed carry permit system in Wisconsin. Under such a system, civilians could apply for a permit, pay a permit fee, demonstrate proficiency with a weapon, and be allowed to lawfully carry a concealed firearm. This would:
    -require additional government staff to administer the permit system, increasing the size of government
    -add another aspect of control to the governmental responsibilities, expanding the scope of government
    -require, in addition to more staff, some means of managing the database of permit holders and providing access to local law enforcement. The State's recent history with purchasing new database systems has been fraught with schedule delays and cost overruns.
    -remove money from taxpayer pockets to fund permit application fees and required training classes
    -deny timely access to concealed carry to those whose decision is driven by situations involving domestic abuse, harassment, stalking, or other criminal activity

    Please compare these points with items 1-4, above.

    Should you decide to pursue a permit system, plan on spending considerable time with your colleagues debating (for starters):
    -which level of government will manage the permit system (state, county or local, and if state, which department? if local or county, how will the state provide oversight to ensure proper program execution?)
    -what proficiency will need to be demonstrated to acquire a permit?
    -what will the training requirements be?
    -how long will a permit last?
    -who's authorized to provide training, and what are their required qualifications?
    -what is the appeals process if denied a permit?
    -what is the permit (ID card, paper license, photolaminate?), where do you acquire it, etc?

    Please consider item 5, above.

    A second option to address the concealed carry issue in Wisconsin would be to simply repeal the current ban on carrying a concealed weapon, SS. 941.23. Governor-elect Walker has stated he would sign such a repeal.
    A ban repeal would be simple to take up in the legislature, would not expand government size, scope, or budget, and would not cost taxpayers a dime.

    As you consider the best means to allow law-abiding Wisconsin residents the means to protect themselves, please keep in mind that your employment status is probationary, and up for review during the next election cycle.

    Again, congratulations, and welcome to the team.
    Somebody from WCI will be along to solicit membership subscription funds. Remember that 'subscription' means more than buying a magazine. WELCOME!
    Last edited by Doug Huffman; 11-04-2010 at 06:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OCglock1988 View Post
    would it be ok to use your post as a template for reaching out to my own representatives? unless i missed it you forgot that the WI GOP platform removed the permit wording from its stance on conceal carry. Rhendrickson makes good points too. Everyone on this forum should be emailing their new legislators so they know what we want. DO NOT SETTLE FOR PERMITS
    Yes, please do.

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Good post and welcome. I would suggest some changes however for a key point. With out a permit system you will be unable to travel through the country. The few states that don't require any type of permit are few and far between, and unlikely to change any time soon. There may be residency requirements for these states also. Wisconsin should have a reciprocal state permit system so we can travel protected. I would suggest using the already in place back ground check call system for the CC permit check. If you are not a felon and can legally purchase a firearm you can obtain a CC permit. Other than that I don't believe any other requirements should be permitted. I will also suggest a castle doctrine in Wisconsin to protect the honest citizen from law suits and other legal issues that may occur while we are protecting ourselves.

    Several months ago I was all for constitutional carry, then I realized as I was crossing into Minnesota one day that if I had my firearm I would not be legal. Until the entire country adopts constitutional carry, travel and firearms will always be a problem.
    Last edited by bigdaddy1; 11-04-2010 at 10:45 AM.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    Good post and welcome. I would suggest some changes however for a key point. With out a permit system you will be unable to travel through the country. The few states that don't require any type of permit are few and far between, and unlikely to change any time soon. There may be residency requirements for these states also. Wisconsin should have a reciprocal state permit system so we can travel protected. I would suggest using the already in place back ground check call system for the CC permit check. If you are not a felon and can legally purchase a firearm you can obtain a CC permit. Other than that I don't believe any other requirements should be permitted. I will also suggest a castle doctrine in Wisconsin to protect the honest citizen from law suits and other legal issues that may occur while we are protecting ourselves.

    Several months ago I was all for constitutional carry, then I realized as I was crossing into Minnesota one day that if I had my firearm I would not be legal. Until the entire country adopts constitutional carry, travel and firearms will always be a problem.
    Traveling is fine as long as you are following federal law on firearm transportation.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  8. #8
    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    I think your missing my point. If you are concealed carrying and you cross a state line, you may be in violation of that states carry law. I don't want to stop at the border, unload and stow my weapon each time I cross a state line.

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    I think your missing my point. If you are concealed carrying and you cross a state line, you may be in violation of that states carry law. I don't want to stop at the border, unload and stow my weapon each time I cross a state line.
    I may be wrong here, but under federal law, isn't it illegal to transport loaded firearms across state lines anyway? I'm not sure how much that is enforced though, especially with those who have permits and reciprocity.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  10. #10
    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    I would make the following edits:

    Quote Originally Posted by GVR View Post

    Forty-eight states currently allow citizens to carry concealed firearms. Sadly, Wisconsin is one of the two states that infringe upon a constitutionally protected right by ensuring that criminals are the only citizens allowed to protect themselves with a concealed firearm.

    One means of rectifying this situation is to implement a concealed carry permit system in Wisconsin. Under such a system, citizens could apply for a permit, pay a permit fee, demonstrate proficiency with a weapon, and be allowed to lawfully carry a concealed firearm.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
    -- George Washington

  11. #11
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    Good post and welcome. I would suggest some changes however for a key point. With out a permit system you will be unable to travel through the country. The few states that don't require any type of permit are few and far between, and unlikely to change any time soon. There may be residency requirements for these states also. Wisconsin should have a reciprocal state permit system so we can travel protected. I would suggest using the already in place back ground check call system for the CC permit check. If you are not a felon and can legally purchase a firearm you can obtain a CC permit. Other than that I don't believe any other requirements should be permitted. I will also suggest a castle doctrine in Wisconsin to protect the honest citizen from law suits and other legal issues that may occur while we are protecting ourselves.

    Several months ago I was all for constitutional carry, then I realized as I was crossing into Minnesota one day that if I had my firearm I would not be legal. Until the entire country adopts constitutional carry, travel and firearms will always be a problem.
    No we shouldn't. If you want reciprocity, get another states out of state permit. If we allow WI to setup the bureaucracy for a permit system, they will somehow make it required.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Vandil's Avatar
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    Seems like a good time to plug this site to WCI.
    http://www.vocus.com/content/governmentrelations.asp

    I use it with another GR political association it allows you to manage grass roots political efforts including emailing all of your government representatives at once. You just setup the letter, then recipients, and publish a link. All the end user has to do is click the link and enter their individual info. They also have the option to edit the form letter before sending it. Takes me a minute to email every rep in the state when I use it.

  13. #13
    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    No we shouldn't. If you want reciprocity, get another states out of state permit. If we allow WI to setup the bureaucracy for a permit system, they will somehow make it required.
    Why should I need to buy between 3 and 6 CC permits for other states when I live in Wisconsin? I seriously doubt if Wisconsin will become a no permit required state anyway. There are only 3 in the entire country, and it took Arizona many years to finally get it done.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    Why should I need to buy between 3 and 6 CC permits for other states when I live in Wisconsin? I seriously doubt if Wisconsin will become a no permit required state anyway. There are only 3 in the entire country, and it took Arizona many years to finally get it done.
    So, are you assuming every other state will honor Wisconsin's permit? I doubt it. Some states require training to honor an out of state one, so, will WI require training? If so, there goes the $5 permit.

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    We'll have our troops out by Ramadamn.

    This talkin' down to the troops is fun!

    JUST carry
    Last edited by Doug Huffman; 11-04-2010 at 06:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    So, are you assuming every other state will honor Wisconsin's permit? I doubt it. Some states require training to honor an out of state one, so, will WI require training? If so, there goes the $5 permit.
    South Carolina requires equivalent training for reciprocity/recognition, and has a short list of recognized CWPs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    Several months ago I was all for constitutional carry, then I realized as I was crossing into Minnesota one day that if I had my firearm I would not be legal. Until the entire country adopts constitutional carry, travel and firearms will always be a problem.
    If you are planning to travel you should get a Utah permit.
    "To sin by silence, when we should protest makes cowards out of men."
    Ella Wheeler Cox


    We must contact our lawmakers today, tomorrow and the next day to remind them of Constitutional Carry.
    Laws are not written because of the actions of many, they are wrtiten because of the inactions of many.

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    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Welcome to the club CVR, glad to have you with us.
    "To sin by silence, when we should protest makes cowards out of men."
    Ella Wheeler Cox


    We must contact our lawmakers today, tomorrow and the next day to remind them of Constitutional Carry.
    Laws are not written because of the actions of many, they are wrtiten because of the inactions of many.

  19. #19
    Regular Member cowboyridn's Avatar
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    My Letter to the Governor

    Quote Originally Posted by GVR View Post
    Congratulations, we have decided you are the right person for the job. We hired you because we believe you will:
    1. Reduce the size of government
    2. Reduce the scope of government
    3. Improve the budgetary situation
    4. Leave more money in the pockets of taxpayers
    5. Team with your co-workers to address challenges facing Wisconsin


    Forty-eight states currently allow civilians to carry concealed firearms. Sadly, Wisconsin is one of the two states that infringe upon a constitutionally protected right by ensuring that criminals are the only civilians allowed to protect themselves with a concealed firearm.

    One means of rectifying this situation is to implement a concealed carry permit system in Wisconsin. Under such a system, civilians could apply for a permit, pay a permit fee, demonstrate proficiency with a weapon, and be allowed to lawfully carry a concealed firearm. This would:
    -require additional government staff to administer the permit system, increasing the size of government
    -add another aspect of control to the governmental responsibilities, expanding the scope of government
    -require, in addition to more staff, some means of managing the database of permit holders and providing access to local law enforcement. The State's recent history with purchasing new database systems has been fraught with schedule delays and cost overruns.
    -remove money from taxpayer pockets to fund permit application fees and required training classes
    -deny timely access to concealed carry to those whose decision is driven by situations involving domestic abuse, harassment, stalking, or other criminal activity

    Please compare these points with items 1-4, above.

    Should you decide to pursue a permit system, plan on spending considerable time with your colleagues debating (for starters):
    -which level of government will manage the permit system (state, county or local, and if state, which department? if local or county, how will the state provide oversight to ensure proper program execution?)
    -what proficiency will need to be demonstrated to acquire a permit?
    -what will the training requirements be?
    -how long will a permit last?
    -who's authorized to provide training, and what are their required qualifications?
    -what is the appeals process if denied a permit?
    -what is the permit (ID card, paper license, photolaminate?), where do you acquire it, etc?

    Please consider item 5, above.

    A second option to address the concealed carry issue in Wisconsin would be to simply repeal the current ban on carrying a concealed weapon, SS. 941.23. Governor-elect Walker has stated he would sign such a repeal.
    A ban repeal would be simple to take up in the legislature, would not expand government size, scope, or budget, and would not cost taxpayers a dime.

    As you consider the best means to allow law-abiding Wisconsin residents the means to protect themselves, please keep in mind that your employment status is probationary, and up for review during the next election cycle.

    Again, congratulations, and welcome to the team.
    My letter to the Governor


    Governor Scott Walker
    P.O. Box 7863
    Madison, WI 53707 November 5, 2010

    Governor,


    My letter today is about Wisconsin Statute 941.23 which has recently been found unconstitutional on its face by a Clark County Circuit Judge in "State v. Joshua D. Schultz, Clark County Case No. 10-CM-138" as overly broad in violation of Article I, Section 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution and the Second and Fourteenth Amendments of the United States Constitution.

    The government’s interest in prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons is the State’s “police power to protect the health, safety, and welfare of its citizens.” See State v. Hamdan, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 463 (2003)”. Is the Promotion of health, safety, and welfare, of citizens an appropriate use of the police power? As the Governor, you must proceed to answer the question and determine if the power is appropriately used here.

    Is sec. 941.23 narrowly tailored to achieve the State’s interest? The answer as Governor should clearly be “no.” In Hamdan, “the statute prohibits any person, except a peace officer, from carrying a concealed weapon, regardless of the circumstances, including pursuit of one of the lawful purposes enumerated in Article I, Section 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution.

    In reading Hamdan the court went on to state that “we have described Wisconsin’s exceptionally restrictive scheme to show how it heightens the conflict between sec. 941.23 and the rights in Article I, Section 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution adding to the conflict is the fundamental rights set forth in the Second Amendment.
    Wisconsin statute 941.23 prohibits judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys, court staff and child support agency workers, and many more citizens that have received legitimate death threats from carrying a concealed weapon for personal safety.

    Open carry or open display of a firearm is not a feasible alternative to concealed carry. Open carry can and has resulted in overzealous police and/or prosecutors charging disorderly conduct under sec. 947.01, Wis. Stats., for what the court considers the lawful open carrying and display of handguns.
    The argument that this will not happen with reasonable prosecutors has already been proven wrong. See the Wisconsin State Journal article, at the following citation: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/loc...cc4c002e0.html This article details how five men were issued disorderly conduct citations for eating at a Culver’s restaurant while having firearms in holsters in plain view.

    Thus, while the State has an interest in public safety, sec. 941.23 is unconstitutional because it is not narrowly tailored to achieve the State’s interest nor is it the least restrictive means for achieving that interest.

    In essence, no State shall abridge the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States. The right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right, not created by the Second Amendment, but secured or recognized by it. The right to keep and bear arms is therefore not to be abridged by any State law. Sec. 941.23 must also fail under the application of the Fourteenth Amendment and must be repealed.


    Don Marso

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    Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny amish View Post
    Welcome to the club CVR, glad to have you with us.
    And welcome to the club to you, Johnny Amiss.

  21. #21
    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyridn View Post
    My letter to the Governor


    Governor Scott Walker
    P.O. Box 7863
    Madison, WI 53707 November 5, 2010

    Governor,


    My letter today is about Wisconsin Statute 941.23 which has recently been found unconstitutional on its face by a Clark County Circuit Judge in "State v. Joshua D. Schultz, Clark County Case No. 10-CM-138" as overly broad in violation of Article I, Section 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution and the Second and Fourteenth Amendments of the United States Constitution.

    The government’s interest in prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons is the State’s “police power to protect the health, safety, and welfare of its citizens.” See State v. Hamdan, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 463 (2003)”. Is the Promotion of health, safety, and welfare, of citizens an appropriate use of the police power? As the Governor, you must proceed to answer the question and determine if the power is appropriately used here.

    Is sec. 941.23 narrowly tailored to achieve the State’s interest? The answer as Governor should clearly be “no.” In Hamdan, “the statute prohibits any person, except a peace officer, from carrying a concealed weapon, regardless of the circumstances, including pursuit of one of the lawful purposes enumerated in Article I, Section 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution.

    In reading Hamdan the court went on to state that “we have described Wisconsin’s exceptionally restrictive scheme to show how it heightens the conflict between sec. 941.23 and the rights in Article I, Section 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution adding to the conflict is the fundamental rights set forth in the Second Amendment.
    Wisconsin statute 941.23 prohibits judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys, court staff and child support agency workers, and many more citizens that have received legitimate death threats from carrying a concealed weapon for personal safety.

    Open carry or open display of a firearm is not a feasible alternative to concealed carry. Open carry can and has resulted in overzealous police and/or prosecutors charging disorderly conduct under sec. 947.01, Wis. Stats., for what the court considers the lawful open carrying and display of handguns.
    The argument that this will not happen with reasonable prosecutors has already been proven wrong. See the Wisconsin State Journal article, at the following citation: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/loc...cc4c002e0.html This article details how five men were issued disorderly conduct citations for eating at a Culver’s restaurant while having firearms in holsters in plain view.

    Thus, while the State has an interest in public safety, sec. 941.23 is unconstitutional because it is not narrowly tailored to achieve the State’s interest nor is it the least restrictive means for achieving that interest.

    In essence, no State shall abridge the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States. The right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right, not created by the Second Amendment, but secured or recognized by it. The right to keep and bear arms is therefore not to be abridged by any State law. Sec. 941.23 must also fail under the application of the Fourteenth Amendment and must be repealed.


    Don Marso


    I like the letter, very good sir. I hope you wouldnt mind if it were borrowed?

  22. #22
    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    And welcome to the club to you, Johnny Amiss.
    Well you will have to forgive me Doug, I wasn't wearing my glasses, I thought the G was a C.
    I didn't realize perfection was the rule on this forum but in the future I will try to meet your standards.
    "To sin by silence, when we should protest makes cowards out of men."
    Ella Wheeler Cox


    We must contact our lawmakers today, tomorrow and the next day to remind them of Constitutional Carry.
    Laws are not written because of the actions of many, they are wrtiten because of the inactions of many.

  23. #23
    Regular Member cowboyridn's Avatar
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    Sure use the letter

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    I like the letter, very good sir. I hope you wouldnt mind if it were borrowed?
    You have permission to use the letter

    DOn

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    I think your missing my point. If you are concealed carrying and you cross a state line, you may be in violation of that states carry law. I don't want to stop at the border, unload and stow my weapon each time I cross a state line.
    I think we all understand what you are looking for, however, there is no guarantee that any state will honor a permit even if we had permit CC in lieu of a repeal of 941.23.

    Typically, a state will require the same training as their permit. So, why should WI be restricted by training just because some other state is?

    If you want to carry in other states, you should look to get a permit a state with the most required training, as that permit will likely get you into the most other states, a permit such as Utah's is a common one which MN accepts.

    You are going to have to get all of that training regardless if you want to carry in conceal in MN, why make the rest of the people of the state go through paying for all of training and permit process so we can carry every day in Wisconsin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    No we shouldn't. If you want reciprocity, get another states out of state permit. If we allow WI to setup the bureaucracy for a permit system, they will somehow make it required.
    I go to michigan about once a month to visit family (my home state) so i'de still be screwed, even though i had a CPL from Michigan (still have it, but not valid since i'm now a Wisconsin resident)

    Michigan only recognizes a carry permit from your home state. Utah permit? fine... if you are a Utah resident.

    That would be a real downer If i used to be able to carry in Michigan... but not wisconsin... then turned into i can carry in wisconsin... but not michigan.

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