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Thread: Open Carry odyssey From Texas to Va

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran Freeflight's Avatar
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    Open Carry odyssey From Texas to Va

    Following is my Open Carry Odyssey from Del Rio Texas to Newport News Va. I carried my big XDM 45

    TEXAS
    It’s very interesting Open Carrying in Texas. Makes the pulse quicken! But I was TRAVELING so I open Carried with impunity at these locations within Texas:
    Del Rio- Manuel’s Steakhouse (Excellent Quail!), Lowes, EAB (Immigration checkpoint Didn’t get out of the Truck so I guess it doesn’t count, They took the puppy a lap around the truck, they didn’t infringe on our rights any more by asking questions)

    Rock Springs, The bank downtown, The Grocer (I can’t remember the name of the store).

    Jonah, KFC, Gas Station

    I actually saw several (two) other open carriers around rock-springs. It seems that open carry is expected and practiced here because of the sparseness of the area. There is no 911 to call. I talked with them at length, they always open carry and didn’t know it carrying a weapon was limited in any way in Texas!

    Louisiana
    Craw Daddy’s, El Dorado resort, Wal Mart, Ranchland Westerwear, Murphy USA Gas Station on Mansfield road,
    Bossier City, Tubbs Hardware on Benton Road, Pancho’s,

    Notes about El Dorado resort: The guards are not armed..and are very pitiful old fat people I was seen by them and lots of other employees and guests, no issues whatsoever. We Stayed 2 nights there.

    Arkansas
    One rest area. Gas Station In Little rock

    Missouri
    Des Arc, Poplar Bluff Wal-mart, Gas Station

    Tennessee
    Shoney’s in Memphis, Pilot in Stanton , Cracker Barrel in Harriman, La Quinta in Bristol

    Virginia
    Rest-stops, Top of Afton Mountain, Wood fired buffet in Charlottesville
    And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

    Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939

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    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    Interesting, so there is a provision in TX law that states if you are traveling you may OC? I thought that TX had only CC? I will be traveling there for the month of December, and even though I have my VA and Utah CHPs, would not mind OCing in the great state of TX
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
    -- George Washington

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    I thought Texas was a no no open carry state, its one of 6 thats not allowed to? I watched a video that was from 2008 so laws can change in two years. Even printing is illgeal like Florida
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 11-04-2010 at 12:58 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Looking at this map http://www.opencarry.org/travel.html you were misbehaving in TX, TN.

    Be careful and maybe delete those sites from your post.

    And looking at this map http://www.opencarry.org/restaurant.html you shouldn't carry in a LA restaurant that serves alcohol.

    Of course the maps could be outdated but just going by them you could have run into trouble, a long way from home.

    BTW: How do you like your XDM45? I have toyed with the idea of getting one but was disappointed it was only 13+1 like the XD.
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 11-04-2010 at 01:28 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran Freeflight's Avatar
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    WHo me Misbehave?!! naw.

    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    Looking at this map http://www.opencarry.org/travel.html you were misbehaving in TX, TN.

    Be careful and maybe delete those sites from your post.

    And looking at this map http://www.opencarry.org/restaurant.html you shouldn't carry in a LA restaurant that serves alcohol.

    Of course the maps could be outdated but just going by them you could have run into trouble, a long way from home.

    BTW: How do you like your XDM45? I have toyed with the idea of getting one but was disappointed it was only 13+1 like the XD.
    See texas code 46.15 Nonaplicability theres a section for Travel see below, I posted my Cite...

    in TN There's licensed Open carry my CHP serves as a license I failed to say I had my Virginia CHP with me just in case. I will dig up a cite when I get a chance.

    I really like my XDM I like having 13+1 of +p with me.

    § 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03
    do not apply to:
    (1) peace officers or special investigators under
    Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section
    prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a
    weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state
    serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or
    special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the
    officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon;
    (2) parole officers and neither section prohibits an
    officer from carrying a weapon in this state if the officer is:
    (A) engaged in the actual discharge of the
    officer's duties while carrying the weapon; and
    (B) in compliance with policies and procedures
    adopted by the Texas Department of Criminal Justice regarding the
    possession of a weapon by an officer while on duty;
    (3) community supervision and corrections department
    officers appointed or employed under Section 76.004, Government
    Code, and neither section prohibits an officer from carrying a
    weapon in this state if the officer is:
    (A) engaged in the actual discharge of the
    officer's duties while carrying the weapon; and
    (B) authorized to carry a weapon under Section
    76.0051, Government Code;
    (4) a judge or justice of a federal court, the supreme
    court, the court of criminal appeals, a court of appeals, a district
    court, a criminal district court, a constitutional county court, a
    statutory county court, a justice court, or a municipal court who is
    licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter
    411, Government Code;
    (5) an honorably retired peace officer or federal
    criminal investigator who holds a certificate of proficiency issued
    under Section 1701.357, Occupations Code, and is carrying a photo
    identification that:
    (A) verifies that the officer honorably retired
    after not less than 15 years of service as a commissioned officer;
    and
    (B) is issued by a state or local law enforcement
    agency; or
    (6) a district attorney, criminal district attorney,
    or county attorney who is licensed to carry a concealed handgun
    under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
    (b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

    Text of subd. (b)(1) as added by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1221,
    § 4
    (1) is in the actual discharge of official duties as a
    member of the armed forces or state military forces as defined by
    Section 431.001, Government Code, or as an employee of a penal
    institution who is performing a security function;

    Text of subd. (b)(1) as added by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1261,
    § 28
    (1) is in the actual discharge of official duties as a
    member of the armed forces or state military forces as defined by
    Section 431.001, Government Code, or as a guard employed by a penal
    institution;
    (2) is on the person's own premises or premises under
    the person's control unless the person is an employee or agent of
    the owner of the premises and the person's primary responsibility
    is to act in the capacity of a security guard to protect persons or
    property, in which event the person must comply with Subdivision
    (5);
    (3) is traveling;

    Text of subd. (b)(4) as added by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1221,
    § 4
    (4) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other
    sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is
    conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's
    residence, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;

    Text of subd. (b)(4) as added by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1261,
    § 28
    (4) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other
    sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is
    conducted, or is directly en route between the premises and the
    actor's residence, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the
    activity;
    (5) holds a security officer commission issued by the
    Texas Board of Private Investigators and Private Security Agencies,
    if:
    (A) the person is engaged in the performance of
    the person's duties as a security officer or traveling to and from
    the person's place of assignment;
    (B) the person is wearing a distinctive uniform;
    and
    (C) the weapon is in plain view;
    (6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid
    license issued under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes, to carry
    a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person
    is carrying;
    (7) holds a security officer commission and a personal
    protection authorization issued by the Texas Board of Private
    Investigators and Private Security Agencies and who is providing
    personal protection under the Private Investigators and Private
    Security Agencies Act (Article 4413(29bb), Vernon's Texas Civil
    Statutes); or
    (8) holds an alcoholic beverage permit or license or
    is an employee of a holder of an alcoholic beverage permit or
    license if the person is supervising the operation of the permitted
    or licensed premises.
    (c) The provision of Section 46.02 prohibiting the carrying
    of a club does not apply to a noncommissioned security guard at an
    institution of higher education who carries a nightstick or similar
    club, and who has undergone 15 hours of training in the proper use
    of the club, including at least seven hours of training in the use
    of the club for nonviolent restraint. For the purposes of this
    subsection, "nonviolent restraint" means the use of reasonable
    force, not intended and not likely to inflict bodily injury.
    (d) The provisions of Section 46.02 prohibiting the
    carrying of a firearm or carrying of a club do not apply to a public
    security officer employed by the adjutant general under Section
    431.029, Government Code, in performance of official duties or
    while traveling to or from a place of duty.
    (e) The provisions of Section 46.02 prohibiting the
    carrying of an illegal knife do not apply to an individual carrying
    a bowie knife or a sword used in a historical demonstration or in a
    ceremony in which the knife or sword is significant to the
    performance of the ceremony.
    (f) Section 46.03(a)(6) does not apply to a person who
    possesses a firearm or club while in the actual discharge of
    official duties as:
    (1) a member of the armed forces or state military
    forces, as defined by Section 431.001, Government Code; or
    (2) an employee of a penal institution.
    (g) Repealed by Acts 2005, 79th Leg., ch. 1093, § 4; Acts
    2005, 79th Leg., ch. 1179, § 3.
    (h) For the purpose of Subsection (b)(2), "premises"
    includes a recreational vehicle that is being used by the person
    carrying the handgun, illegal knife, or club as living quarters,
    regardless of whether that use is temporary or permanent. In this
    subsection, "recreational vehicle" means a motor vehicle primarily
    designed as temporary living quarters or a vehicle that contains
    temporary living quarters and is designed to be towed by a motor
    vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer, camping trailer,
    truck camper, motor home, and horse trailer with living quarters.

    Text of subsec. (i) as added by Acts 2005, 79th Leg., ch. 288, § 1
    (i) For purposes of Subsection (b)(3), a person is presumed
    to be traveling if the person is:
    (1) in a private motor vehicle;
    (2) not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other
    than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance
    regulating traffic;
    (3) not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a
    firearm;
    (4) not a member of a criminal street gang, as defined
    by Section 71.01; and
    (5) not carrying a handgun in plain view.

    Text of subsec. (i) as added by Acts 2005, 79th Leg., ch. 976, § 4
    (i) The provisions of Section 46.02 prohibiting the
    carrying of a handgun do not apply to an individual who carries a
    handgun as a participant in a historical reenactment performed in
    accordance with the rules of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage
    Commission.

    Added by Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 318, § 18, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.
    Amended by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1221, § 4, eff. June 20,
    1997; Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1261, § 28, eff. Sept. 1, 1997;
    Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 62, § 9.25, eff. Sept. 1, 1999; Acts
    1999, 76th Leg., ch. 1445, § 2, eff. Sept. 1, 1999; Acts 2001,
    77th Leg., ch. 1060, § 3, eff. Sept. 1, 2001; Acts 2003, 78th
    Leg., ch. 325, § 2, eff. Sept. 1, 2003; Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch.
    421, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 2003; Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 795, §
    1, eff. June 20, 2003; Acts 2005, 79th Leg., ch. 288, § 1, eff.
    Sept. 1, 2005; Acts 2005, 79th Leg., ch. 728, § 23.001(78), eff.
    Sept. 1, 2005; Acts 2005, 79th Leg., ch. 976, § 4, eff. Sept. 1,
    2005; Acts 2005, 79th Leg., ch. 1093, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 2005;
    Acts 2005, 79th Leg., ch. 1179, § 2, 3, eff. Sept. 1, 2005.
    And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

    Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freeflight View Post
    See texas code 46.15 Nonaplicability theres a section for Travel see below, I posted my Cite...

    (3) is traveling;

    Text of subsec. (i) as added by Acts 2005, 79th Leg., ch. 288, § 1
    (i) For purposes of Subsection (b)(3), a person is presumed to be traveling if the person is:
    (1) in a private motor vehicle;
    (2) not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic;
    (3) not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a firearm;
    (4) not a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01; and
    (5) not carrying a handgun in plain view.
    So in TX were you in a drive-in at Del Rio- Manuel’s Steakhouse? Because the way I read it was that you could only OC in your car. Or do some of the other exemptions like retired LEO apply?

    And in Louisiana was Craw Daddy’s a dry restaurant?

    I am not trying to be a hard-a55 just want people to make sure they aren't putting themselves at risk with the law. It would be nice if we got Constitutional carry everywhere and could do away with maps and cites.
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 11-04-2010 at 02:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    So in TX were you in a drive-in at Del Rio- Manuel’s Steakhouse? Because the way I read it was that you could only OC in your car. Or do some of the other exemptions like retired LEO apply?

    And in Louisiana was Craw Daddy’s a dry restaurant?

    I am not trying to be a hard-a55 just want people to make sure they aren't putting themselves at risk with the law. It would be nice if we got Constitutional carry everywhere and could do away with maps and cites.
    45acpForMe...I got the same thing out of it you did...except:

    Text of subsec. (i) as added by Acts 2005, 79th Leg., ch. 288, § 1
    (i) For purposes of Subsection (b)(3), a person is presumed
    to be traveling if the person is:
    (1) in a private motor vehicle;
    (2) not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other
    than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance
    regulating traffic;
    (3) not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a
    firearm;
    (4) not a member of a criminal street gang, as defined
    by Section 71.01; and
    (5) not carrying a handgun in plain view.
    There are a few exemptions...LEO, Penal Guard, Military...however, only when discharging official duties.

  8. #8
    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Where did you guys get your copy of Texas Penal Code Section 46.15? 46.15(i) was repealed, effective September 1, 2007. 46.15(b)(2) is no longer defined by 46.15(i).

    http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u...E.46.htm#46.15
    <snip>
    (i) Repealed by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 693, Sec. 3(2), eff. September 1, 2007.
    </snip>

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    Explaining the Texas law requires a little history lesson.

    First, Texas bans having a handgun on or about your person. Period. That's the basic premise of PC 46.02: a ban on handguns. Section 46.02 makes an exception for being on property you own or control, or being in or directly en route to a vehicle you own or control (but only if the handgun is concealed).

    Then, way down in PC 46.15 ("NONAPPLICABILITY"), we see that 46.02 does not apply in certain cases. One of those is being a LEO, another is having a CHL and a concealed handgun. And 46.15(b)(2) says 46.02 does not apply to a person who is traveling.

    For decades, that generally meant you could carry a handgun so long as you weren't up to no good (and being a minority counted as "up to no good" in most of the state). There was no statutory definition of traveling, and no statewide case law, just a patchwork of lower court decisions. "Traveling" in one part of the state might mean any time you're away from your home, while in another part it might require crossing three county lines and an overnight stay.

    When the white middle class became afraid to carry lest they get in trouble with the law, the impetus behind the CHL law was born.

    After a few years of CHL and legal concealed carry, we heard from a lot of people who didn't want to take the class and pay for the license, they just wanted to be able to carry in their car without worrying about getting busted.

    To this end, in 2007 the legislature added the language seen above, where a person was presumed to be traveling if they were in a car they own or control, weren't a gang member, and weren't breaking any laws other than Class C traffic violations. But, that was only a presumption, which could be rebutted in court. Some DAs vowed to continue prosecuting anyone with a handgun in their car.

    So in 2009 they tried again. They repealed the "presumed to be traveling" paragraph, and moved the same language to PC 46.02(a-1). That puts your car on the same status as property you own or control.

    Yes, 46.02(a-1)(1) makes it an offense if the handgun is in plain view. But, remember: 46.02, including subsections, does not apply to someone who is traveling, per 46.15(b)(2).

    The only time you are required to carry concealed in Texas is if you're in your car but not traveling, or if you are carrying under authority of a CHL. If you're traveling, on your own property, or engaged in sporting activity involving a handgun, you can OC.

    Clear as mud?

  10. #10
    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    Explaining the Texas law requires a little history lesson.
    <snip>
    Clear as mud?
    Yes about that clear. I hate that lawyers can make a simple problem into something you need a law degree in order to understand.

    Now the OP was talking about OC-ing, not on his property, in the car as well as out and about. It was the out and about part that threw red flags since Texas doesn't allow OC (much). I'm glad nothing bad happened but would hate to see someone get pinched for ignorance of the law.

    It seems that the Texans have tried to untangle their laws a bit but they have a ways to go in my opinion. :-)

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran Freeflight's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    Yes about that clear. I hate that lawyers can make a simple problem into something you need a law degree in order to understand.

    Now the OP was talking about OC-ing, not on his property, in the car as well as out and about. It was the out and about part that threw red flags since Texas doesn't allow OC (much). I'm glad nothing bad happened but would hate to see someone get pinched for ignorance of the law.

    It seems that the Texans have tried to untangle their laws a bit but they have a ways to go in my opinion. :-)
    See the thread in the TEXAS Forum, Open carry while Traveling is Completely Legal!
    Had I got Pinched... I would have pinched back hard.

    Ignorance, not so much... I researched and planned before pulling this stunt..
    And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

    Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939

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    Quote Originally Posted by virginiatuck View Post
    Where did you guys get your copy of Texas Penal Code Section 46.15? 46.15(i) was repealed, effective September 1, 2007. 46.15(b)(2) is no longer defined by 46.15(i).

    http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u...E.46.htm#46.15
    <snip>
    (i) Repealed by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 693, Sec. 3(2), eff. September 1, 2007.
    </snip>
    not sure what (i) is supposed to be that was repealed, but here is the appropriate exception for carrying openly.

    Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:
    (b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

    (2) is traveling;

    (3) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's residence or motor vehicle, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran Freeflight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKSuddeth View Post
    not sure what (i) is supposed to be that was repealed, but here is the appropriate exception for carrying openly.

    Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:
    (b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

    (2) is traveling;

    (3) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's residence or motor vehicle, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;
    Thanks DKSuddeth, Spoken better than I.
    And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

    Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939

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