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Thread: Open Carry odyssey from Del-Rio to Virginia

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    Campaign Veteran Freeflight's Avatar
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    Open Carry odyssey from Del-Rio to Virginia

    Following is my Open Carry Odyssey from Del Rio Texas to Newport News Va. I carried my big XDM 45

    TEXAS
    It’s very interesting Open Carrying in Texas. Makes the pulse quicken! But I was TRAVELING so I open Carried with impunity at these locations within Texas:
    Del Rio- Manuel’s Steakhouse (Excellent Quail!), Lowes, EAB (Immigration checkpoint Didn’t get out of the Truck so I guess it doesn’t count, They took the puppy a lap around the truck, they didn’t infringe on our rights any more by asking questions)

    Rock Springs, The bank downtown, The Grocer (I can’t remember the name of the store).

    Jonah, KFC, Gas Station

    I actually saw several (two) other open carriers around rock-springs. It seems that open carry is expected and practiced here because of the sparseness of the area. There is no 911 to call. I talked with them at length, they always open carry and didn’t know it carrying a weapon was limited in any way in Texas!

    Louisiana
    Shreveport, Craw Daddy’s, El Dorado resort, Wal Mart, Ranchland Westerwear, Murphy USA Gas Station on Mansfield road,
    Bossier City, Tubbs Hardware on Benton Road, Pancho’s,

    Notes about El Dorado resort: The guards are not armed..and are very pitiful old fat people I was seen by them and lots of other employees and guests, no issues whatsoever. We Stayed 2 nights there.

    Arkansas
    One rest area. Gas Station In Little rock

    Missouri
    Des Arc, Poplar Bluff Wal-mart, Gas Station

    Tennessee
    Shoney’s in Memphis, Pilot in Stanton , Cracker Barrel in Harriman, La Quinta in Bristol

    Virginia
    Rest-stops, Top of Afton Mountain, Wood fired buffet in Charlottesville
    Last edited by Freeflight; 11-04-2010 at 10:55 AM.
    And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

    Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freeflight View Post
    Following is my Open Carry Odyssey from Del Rio Texas to Newport News Va. I carried my big XDM 45

    TEXAS
    It’s very interesting Open Carrying in Texas. Makes the pulse quicken! But I was TRAVELING so I open Carried with impunity at these locations within Texas:
    Del Rio- Manuel’s Steakhouse (Excellent Quail!), Lowes, EAB (Immigration checkpoint Didn’t get out of the Truck so I guess it doesn’t count, They took the puppy a lap around the truck, they didn’t infringe on our rights any more by asking questions)

    Rock Springs, The bank downtown, The Grocer (I can’t remember the name of the store).

    Jonah, KFC, Gas Station

    I actually saw several (two) other open carriers around rock-springs. It seems that open carry is expected and practiced here because of the sparseness of the area. There is no 911 to call. I talked with them at length, they always open carry and didn’t know it carrying a weapon was limited in any way in Texas!

    Last I read section 46 of the Texas Penal Code(just a couple of minutes ago). You put yourself in postion to get arrested for a Class A misdemeanor at least 8 times. And if Manuel's has a liquor license it was a felony.

    YOU got very lucky.

    BTW, I was a Texas LEO in years past.
    Last edited by OldCurlyWolf; 11-07-2010 at 12:17 AM.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldCurlyWolf View Post
    Last I read section 46 of the Texas Penal Code(just a couple of minutes ago). You put yourself in postion to get arrested for a Class A misdemeanor at least 8 times. And if Manuel's has a liquor license it was a felony.

    YOU got very lucky.

    BTW, I was a Texas LEO in years past.
    Well, let's look at it. He was traveling, with his starting point in Del Rio. Every stop he made along the way was a part of that travel. Until he finished his travel (which was a destination out of state), 46.02 "does not apply" according to 46.15.

    And that includes the felony enhancement found in 46.02(c).

    There is no statutory definition of "traveling". There is no statewide case law defining "traveling". Anyone traveling might find himself at the mercy of local authorities and vague case law, but that person is, prime facie under state law, legal to carry a handgun, openly or concealed, loaded or not, except for the prohibited places listed in PC 46.03.

    Discuss?

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    There isn't much to discuss... carrying a handgun is legal while traveling, whether openly or concealed. It isn't typical to carry it openly while doing so, but it's still legal, and I've done it myself. Any LEO which arrests someone while doing it is setting their jurisdiction up for a big civil settlement once the dust is settled, even though that wouldn't stop them at the time. The carrier might not beat the ride, but the city/county wouldn't beat the court case, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    Well, let's look at it. He was traveling, with his starting point in Del Rio. Every stop he made along the way was a part of that travel. Until he finished his travel (which was a destination out of state), 46.02 "does not apply" according to 46.15.

    And that includes the felony enhancement found in 46.02(c).

    There is no statutory definition of "traveling". There is no statewide case law defining "traveling". Anyone traveling might find himself at the mercy of local authorities and vague case law, but that person is, prime facie under state law, legal to carry a handgun, openly or concealed, loaded or not, except for the prohibited places listed in PC 46.03.

    Discuss?
    What about the TABC regulations in establishments with various alcohol licenses? "The unlicensed possession of a weapon" etc would apply, IMO, however otherwise legal the open carry is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanmills View Post
    What about the TABC regulations in establishments with various alcohol licenses? "The unlicensed possession of a weapon" etc would apply, IMO, however otherwise legal the open carry is.
    That is PC 46.02; it doesn't apply.

    Regulations aren't laws.

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    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Thank you Freeflight for your traveling narrative as well as your contribution to freedom in Texas. It sounds like you have some familiarity with West Texas. Although you did not make any reference to the fact - I'll bet you had a well thought out "flight plan" before you set out from Del Rio. Good work !

    Exercise of our right - when and where possible - is going to be an important element, combined with other efforts in correcting this problem. Such law still remaining on the books is a disgrace to Texans. It has always been selectively enforced, and that practice continues today. Nowadays interest in enforcement has primarily been either co-opted by the progressive gun-ban enthusiasts , or the elitist mentality of some within law enforcement.

    Every time a pathfinder like Freeflight demonstrates that the emperor is only wearing a "SPEED-O" , we are promptly reminded that we can still be stepped on by the emperor's bare "flat-foot" for daring to presume to be able to freely exercise our God-given, and constitutionally protected right. I have a strong sense that a tidal wave is building that will soon spread across the State of Texas, because there are an increasing number of folks in Texas regularly engaged in some manner of travel - myself included.

    The 82nd Texas Legislature may or may not get around to relaxing 46.035 (failure to conceal by licensee) , but the right to bear arms must still be exercised and respected in Texas. The best way to achieve this is to exercise the right prudently, responsibly, and carefully untill the statutory law can be improved upon.

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    I don't believe 46.035 applies to someone who is traveling, any more than it applies on your own property, or while engaged in sporting activity involving use of a handgun.

    Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

    A person is only carrying "under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code", if that's the only thing making it legal to carry the handgun. Any of the exceptions negate the need for a license, so you're not carryign under that authority if an exception applies.

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    I agree with OldCurlyWolf.

    Reading the OP's post, he was Opening-Carrying outside of his car in the state of Texas, therefore he was 100% illegal. "Travelling" has zero to do with it as it doesn't matter since it applies to [handguns] INSIDE the car, not outside. OC is illegal in TX. Period. LONG guns are another story but we're talking handguns here...

    And then OCing in those places of businesses he lists while still in Texas? More counts of illegal carrying, just as OldCurlyWolf said. TX does not allow OC, Period.

    OCing or CCing inside his car is fine -- travelling or not -- but OCing OUT of his car -- walking around, going into businesses, whether they sell alcohol or not -- is illegal.

    He certanly WAS damn lucky he wasn't busted by a LEO.
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 11-10-2010 at 11:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    I agree with OldCurlyWolf.

    Reading the OP's post, he was Opening-Carrying outside of his car in the state of Texas, therefore he was 100% illegal. "Travelling" has zero to do with it as it doesn't matter since it applies to [handguns] INSIDE the car, not outside. OC is illegal in TX. Period. LONG guns are another story but we're talking handguns here...

    And then OCing in those places of businesses he lists while still in Texas? More counts of illegal carrying, just as OldCurlyWolf said. TX does not allow OC, Period.

    OCing or CCing inside his car is fine -- travelling or not -- but OCing OUT of his car -- walking around, going into businesses, whether they sell alcohol or not -- is illegal.

    He certanly WAS damn lucky he wasn't busted by a LEO.
    Had I been "Busted" for doing nothing illegal, I would be able to retire with the money they (texas) would end up paying me. I was TRAVELING in a straight line from Del Rio to Yorktown Va OPEN CARRY IS LEGAL plain as the nose on our faces...as long as you are Traveling...

    I want the KING to know... that I know he's naked...
    Last edited by Freeflight; 11-11-2010 at 11:48 AM. Reason: correct spelling error
    And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

    Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939

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    Campaign Veteran Freeflight's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=rushcreek2;1397863]Thank you Freeflight for your traveling narrative as well as your contribution to freedom in Texas. It sounds like you have some familiarity with West Texas. Although you did not make any reference to the fact - I'll bet you had a well thought out "flight plan" before you set out from Del Rio. Good work !

    Thanks... Glad someone agrees with me. I did Very carefully plan this and each step was executed in order. I was in NO Danger to all the hand wringing persons... To be truthfull I would have concealed the gun had I traveled through big cities. they (the big citys) is where the sissies live that will call 911 on you... Texas has its granola munchers too. grrrrrrrrr.

    I am really a displaced Texan in Va. I still own land (lots of it) in Texas close to Del Rio.

    Only working in VA.
    Last edited by Freeflight; 11-11-2010 at 11:54 AM.
    And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

    Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    I agree with OldCurlyWolf.

    Reading the OP's post, he was Opening-Carrying outside of his car in the state of Texas, therefore he was 100% illegal. "Travelling" has zero to do with it as it doesn't matter since it applies to [handguns] INSIDE the car, not outside. OC is illegal in TX. Period. LONG guns are another story but we're talking handguns here...

    And then OCing in those places of businesses he lists while still in Texas? More counts of illegal carrying, just as OldCurlyWolf said. TX does not allow OC, Period.

    OCing or CCing inside his car is fine -- travelling or not -- but OCing OUT of his car -- walking around, going into businesses, whether they sell alcohol or not -- is illegal.

    He certanly WAS damn lucky he wasn't busted by a LEO.
    this is completely incorrect. The texas laws were changed only to allow an unlicensed person to have a handgun in their vehicle, whether traveling or not. The traveling exemption has not been altered or removed, therefore, while traveling, one may indeed open carry OUTSIDE of said persons vehicle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    Reading the OP's post, he was Opening-Carrying outside of his car in the state of Texas, therefore he was 100% illegal. "Travelling" has zero to do with it as it doesn't matter since it applies to [handguns] INSIDE the car, not outside. OC is illegal in TX. Period. LONG guns are another story but we're talking handguns here...

    And then OCing in those places of businesses he lists while still in Texas? More counts of illegal carrying, just as OldCurlyWolf said. TX does not allow OC, Period.
    You haven't bothered to actually read the law, have you?

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    No, I haven't. "Bothering to read" has nothing to do with it as I'm not lazy. I just have trouble reading legalese and clearly understanding it. Even lawyers argue about what laws mean. But even if I DID understand the law, lots of cops don't. Either way, I'd not be OCing outside my vehicle.

    I already knew about "no permit required" to carry a handgun in one's car, the "clarification" of "travelling." But I have NEVER heard any changes NOW meaning one could walk about OCing when traveling, be it around their car while pumping gas, to a restroom at a rest area, or into some restuarant...in TEXAS.

    When I take my 800-mile trip to ELP (and then on to ABQ) this coming December, while still in TX I'll be looking for people OCing.
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 11-12-2010 at 01:45 AM.

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    THE TEXAS TRAVELING EXCEPTION TO 46.02 DOES NOT MANDATE VEHICULAR TRAVEL OF ANY KIND. MODE OF TRAVEL IS NOT STIPULATED. Although rare- people do WALK, RUN (Forrest Gump) in the course of their travel.

    While IN ROUTE between Colorado Springs and Arlington - I am by that definition a "traveler" - not just when inside a moving vehicle. That doesn't mean that I plan on aggressively asserting my allowed - although RESTRICTED - right to carry a handgun in Texas while in every venue along the route - BUT WHEN AND WHERE I may otherwise deem it advisable and prudent to avoid unsolicited contact with suspicious vermin - my handgun is NOT CONCEALED.

    When I exit my vehicle to pay at the pump it usually is displayed on my belt. I have never to my knowledge been "made" - unless by some vermin scanning the fueling customers for a "mark". "Pit-Stop/C-stores" are notorious for pan-handler/robbers and car-jackers. If I need to enter the C-store - then I conceal -IN TEXAS.

    I pick up my granddaughter at an Arlington Texas elementary school whenever visiting Texas. If I exit the car - I conceal - and obviously do not enter the school building armed. Restrictions still apply even when traveling. Now - when a traveler REACHES THE DESTINATION (OR...turn-around point) - is he still "traveling" ? That is a "call" that one should consider PRUDENTLY, CAUTIOUSLY, and in keeping with the "flight-plan" referred to earlier. I consider myself to be either in route or at my turn-around point with very few exceptions.

    I regularly display when engaged in motel parking areas TRAVELING to & fro from my room. I had one experience where I am absolutely certain an "opportunistic" individual was lurking in the parking area and closely eyeing my arrival. This individual was clearly not a guest - and my car was the only vehicle in the lot. He quickly left the scene after observing that I was armed. People like that will loiter around motels rooms because motel guest may leave the car unlocked while transfering luggage into the room. What if a woman traveling alone had been in that situtation - UNARMED or even carrying concealed ?

    I would suggest that some folks need to get out AND TRAVEL more whether residing in or visiting Texas - rather than accepting the notion that in-public OC is absolutely illegal in Texas. If some folks are comfortable with that notion - so be it.

    Some of us recognize that if you don't push against the incircling bubble of oppression it will only get tighter.

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    Regular Member Fisherman's Avatar
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    You know? I didn't know that either. I thought that even while traveling, you had to leave your gun out of site and in the car. I just finished reading 46.02 again and had to look at it two or three times and you're right. When traveling as you were doing, you can open carry on your person because 46.02(b) says that 46.02 doesn't apply to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
    You know? I didn't know that either. I thought that even while traveling, you had to leave your gun out of site and in the car. I just finished reading 46.02 again and had to look at it two or three times and you're right. When traveling as you were doing, you can open carry on your person because 46.02(b) says that 46.02 doesn't apply to you.
    That is Correct! Welcome aboard, Ye shall know the Truth, and the Truth will set you Free!

    (Not meant to sound harsh, put a friendly tone on it as you read.)

    Free Flight
    And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

    Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939

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    Question:

    If one can OC when "traveling" and the mode of traveling could be anything (walking, in a car, on a bicycle, MC, scooter, horse...whatever, as no mode of travel is specified), and one could be traveling to/from anywhere (either locally in-town, across the street to the convenience store and back, or a trip across the state - again, using any mode of travel) then why do we need anything from the TX state legislature (a sponsor for an "OC bill," then support for it to get the bill passed) or even Governor Perry (to sign any "OC bill" he receives into law) to "bring about OC to TX?"

    What's the point if we already have it?
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 11-13-2010 at 08:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    Question:

    If one can OC when "traveling" and the mode of traveling could be anything (walking, in a car, on a bicycle, MC, scooter, horse...whatever, as no mode of travel is specified), and one could be traveling to/from anywhere (either locally in-town, across the street to the convenience store and back, or a trip across the state - again, using any mode of travel) then why do we need anything from the TX state legislature (a sponsor for an "OC bill," then support for it to get the bill passed) or even Governor Perry (to sign any "OC bill" he receives into law) to "bring about OC to TX?"

    What's the point if we already have it?
    The problem is that there is no statutory definition of "traveling", and no statewide case law that defines it. In various jurisdictions, the controlling case law might require a certain distance, or an overnight stay. The general legal definition of traveling means leaving your local community and circle of family and acquaintences. Travel in 1810 could be as little as 10 miles; in 2010, it might be construed to be a hundred miles or more.

    In other words, I consider it reasonble to claim I'm traveling when I walk three blocks to the corner store and back, but a judge could disagree, find that I'm not traveling, and find me guilty of UCW.

    The (probably apocryphal) ruling attributed to Roy Bean was, "If he's standing still he's not carrying, and if he's moving he's traveling." Then again, another of Bean's alleged rulings was to find an unidentified corpse guilty of carrying a weapon, and fine him the amount of money in his pocket in order to pay for his burial.

    If you can find out, or pay a lawyer to find out for you, the controlling definition in your area, then by all means feel free to explore the buffer zone. Personally, my comfort level doesn't allow risking a Class A misdemeanor unless I know I'm right and I'm confident the courts would agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    The problem is that there is no statutory definition of "traveling", and no statewide case law that defines it. In various jurisdictions, the controlling case law might require a certain distance, or an overnight stay. The general legal definition of traveling means leaving your local community and circle of family and acquaintences. Travel in 1810 could be as little as 10 miles; in 2010, it might be construed to be a hundred miles or more.

    In other words, I consider it reasonble to claim I'm traveling when I walk three blocks to the corner store and back, but a judge could disagree, find that I'm not traveling, and find me guilty of UCW.

    The (probably apocryphal) ruling attributed to Roy Bean was, "If he's standing still he's not carrying, and if he's moving he's traveling." Then again, another of Bean's alleged rulings was to find an unidentified corpse guilty of carrying a weapon, and fine him the amount of money in his pocket in order to pay for his burial.

    If you can find out, or pay a lawyer to find out for you, the controlling definition in your area, then by all means feel free to explore the buffer zone. Personally, my comfort level doesn't allow risking a Class A misdemeanor unless I know I'm right and I'm confident the courts would agree.
    Feel as you may, a County Criminal Court at Law Judge(Class A & B Misdemeanors) or a District Court Judge (Felonies) is more than 90% likely to disagree with you and your lawyer. So is a Jury.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldCurlyWolf View Post
    Feel as you may, a County Criminal Court at Law Judge(Class A & B Misdemeanors) or a District Court Judge (Felonies) is more than 90% likely to disagree with you and your lawyer. So is a Jury.
    I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with me about, or banging your head about. I laid out the problems with there being no statutory or statewide controlling case law definition of "traveling", and how different jurisdictions might respond. I said I wouldn't feel comfortable relying on traveling unless it was absolutely clear that I was doing so.

    So: what are the judge and jury going to disagree with me about, exactly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with me about, or banging your head about. I laid out the problems with there being no statutory or statewide controlling case law definition of "traveling", and how different jurisdictions might respond. I said I wouldn't feel comfortable relying on traveling unless it was absolutely clear that I was doing so.

    So: what are the judge and jury going to disagree with me about, exactly?
    these are arguments that have been hashed around with for years. I travel across two counties daily just going to work and back, but i'm pretty sure in the DFW area, they are not going to consider that traveling. Now, if one is driving to somewhere 3 hours away, more than likely that is going to be considered traveling. but again, you are correct that it is still a gray area because there is no statutory definition of 'traveling'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DKSuddeth View Post
    these are arguments that have been hashed around with for years. I travel across two counties daily just going to work and back, but i'm pretty sure in the DFW area, they are not going to consider that traveling. Now, if one is driving to somewhere 3 hours away, more than likely that is going to be considered traveling. but again, you are correct that it is still a gray area because there is no statutory definition of 'traveling'.

    There is now. By Statute, not by case law. Since I believe 2007.

    Here is the revision:

    Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

    (1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or

    (2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control.
    Wandering around outside the vehicle and going into stores while armed is not covered as allowed behavior
    (a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:

    (1) the handgun is in plain view; or OC is not allowed here either.

    (2) the person is:

    (A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic;

    (B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or

    (C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.

    (a-2) For purposes of this section, "premises" includes real property and a recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, regardless of whether that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection, "recreational vehicle" means a motor vehicle primarily designed as temporary living quarters or a vehicle that contains temporary living quarters and is designed to be towed by a motor vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper, motor home, and horse trailer with living quarters.
    Last edited by OldCurlyWolf; 11-23-2010 at 02:36 AM.
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    (2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

    if this is the new statutory definition of traveling, then our rights just got seriously curtailed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DKSuddeth View Post
    (2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

    if this is the new statutory definition of traveling, then our rights just got seriously curtailed.
    This isn't a definition of traveling at all. It's a definition of an exception to TXPC 46.02 Unlawful Carrying of a Weapon.

    Traveling is still not defined in the Penal Code.

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