Start your FOI requests now, and lawyer up
Stopped handcuffed detained by three Durham police while walking down a street, open carrying, for "felony check" after informing them that I had a valid pistol permit. They ejected a cartridge in the barrel onto the ground which I lost. They placed me in handcuffs behind my back and in the back of a cruiser, stating that "you are not being arrested, just detained." Before this, one officer stated "you should be carrying that concealed." I informed him that I did not have a concealed carry permit, had never applied for one and did not want to, for cost and that it really does nothing more for you, but did look into it. He then stated, "ok where is your gun permit?" I told him that I used it for the purchase of the gun. They said that was getting "smart with them." They said to prevent this from occurring over and over again, that CCW was the only way to go! I was put in the back of a cruiser while they ran my name for a "felony check." This was after the sheriff's department ran a NCIS check the day before, and a gun store, a NCIS check one week ago and also after being robbed at gunpoint myself, a couple of weeks ago! Before this, numerous Durham County Deputy Sheriffs and numerous Durham Police officers, drove past me up and down the street I was walking on. I suppose, to attempt to scare me into making a perfectly legal act, illegal be "forcing me to hide a perfectly openly carried and legal gun" A few weeks ago, I was robbed by gunpoint and other of Durham's police dept. responded that time with a dog, but did not find the robber. For the next two days, Duke University, nearby, students were robbed on the same street!!!!!!!!!! This just goes to show you that not only don't your local police know the laws, they did not have the "probable cause" to stop me, making this a very clear illegal stop. How they attempted to get out of it, was saying that "they could consider charging in that instance with terror with a gun to the public, a misdemeanor." I informed them that the gun was never referred to by me to anyone while walking nor did it ever leave the holster, thus could not have been pointed at anyone. Hysteria, if in fact, someone did call, is terribly different from "terror." I am a US Citizen by birth and have owned guns since I was 18 y.o. Seems that they wanted to "argue" over a perfectly legal carry or at least wanted to show me that they "could" stop me if they wanted to. But in essence, they were the ones who were illegal, I was perfectly legal. What a shame. If this continues, only criminals will be the ones with guns! However, rights are rights, one does not have to have a gun pointed at them before they are legal to carry a gun themselves!!! An utter form of harassment in my book.
Start your FOI requests now, and lawyer up
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
-- George Washington
Did they return your firearm?
IMO - Call the media TV and print, tell them your story and facts of the situation, under police harrassment.
Last edited by Northerner; 11-04-2010 at 02:41 PM.
Do you have a copy or link to a police report/news article or something along those lines?
Just a nitpick...
They only need 'reasonable suspicion' to stop you, not probable cause.they did not have the "probable cause" to stop me, making this a very clear illegal stop.
Now handcuffing you and putting you in a squad car, that is a whole different thing... If you are not free to leave, you are under arrest.
And don't forget to post your audio recording that you made of the encounter, on YouTube, or something.
And make plenty of copies of it, and send them to a few out-of-state friends, for "safety"...
It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
--Barry Goldwater, 1964
Dangggg I'm not lonely now!
[["The main question the Supreme Court had was whether Terry’s right to personal security was violated by an unreasonable search and seizure. First, the Court decided that any time an officer restrains a person’s ability to walk away, he is seized. The Court also said that a patting of outer clothing is indeed a search. Therefore, the judgment here is as to whether or not the actions were considered reasonable. They went on to state that when practical, police must have probable cause, and a warrant to perform a search. However, during on-the-spot observations during a beat, it is not practical for an officer to obtain a warrant. Yet, good faith alone cannot be enough to determine a situation unpractical, and to override these regulations. The Court believed that the actions the officer witnessed were enough to allow the officer to reasonably suspect the men could have been armed. The search was carefully restricted to the outer clothing where a weapon may have been located. On the one man where no weapon was found, the officer discontinued his search. Therefore, the Supreme Court affirmed the conviction to Terry."]]
See this is absoultey ludacris. At leat file a complaint with the Department. I know everyone says to lawyer up but a lot of times people just can't afford to sue. And what the heck is the differnce between saying your being detained and being arrested? If your being detained don't they have to charge you with something? And the whole Going Armed in Terror of the Public thing is just nuts, you would have to have eyewitness reports of people seeing you brandashing your firearm.
Yes, they returned the handgun. This is in North Carolina, according to the press, a "traditionally open carry state." The handgun was purchased in a different county in NC. I would suggest NOT buying a gun from your local "pawn shop" just for that purpose. Your "local" gun-shop a little better, but. No "police report" was made because of that purpose. "Double talk" is very prevalent with these so-called "police officers." If your within your CIVIL RIGHTS, be sure that they will call you on it. I am NOT against carrying it again in the exact same manner, as it was perfectly legal. If they do seize it, I will file suit against the officers involved, Durham County and the Durham City Police Department. Legal does not mean legal in Durham. Hysteria is not terror. They seem to want to "push" every word in the satutes and call into question everything, sort of a confabulation. Why would they suggest a CCW if they have a problem with "public safety?" The reason that you do not see "most" people doing it, is that the majority of people have not been robbed at gunpoint, been beaten up and had their car's broken into, on three separate occasions. Trust me, the mouthier ones have already mouthed you to the establishments that you frequent. This is a fact. They assume that you, "Joe Public" do not know the laws. In fact I am a former Forsyth County, North Carolina Forensic Pathologist. There are a lot of issues. They want ONLY themselves and criminals to carry guns.
The entire situation was a cluster of errors perpetuated by cops that just wanted to do SOMETHING, not necessarily within the law, or the right thing. Not only did they make the stop, they strayed me in the opposite direction, once they did let me go. They made it seem like they were doing me a favor by doing so.
Reasonable 'reasonable suspicion' of doing what, walking down a sidewalk/street open carrying with a legal handgun? They could have "cleared" the situation by questioning which is what they began to do, and I willingly obliged. When I started talking and stating that the handgun was legal, he became "the man" and took my rights away in a rude manner, then turned the tables and called me on being "smart."
Then I had to stand out in the middle of the street going over the NC statute on where a gun can and can not be taken in NC, such as government buildings, libraries, schools.... One of the officers, was proud of the fact that a NC CCW permit is honored in "most states." According to the literature, it is only honored in about 30, and not even in South Carolina.
This is after 3 Duke Graduate Students also were robbed in the same area (2 on the same street, in the same week I was!)
Date this happened and at what time?
Street name or intersection?
Any verifiable details?
It is an exciting story, but similar have been heard before.
There are those that will easily confirm or deny the details you omitted.
We do not need or want another popcorn fest. So please provide enough specifics for confirmation.
You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC
Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.
Happened at 4:30 pm on Hillandale Road in Durham, NC on November 3, 2010. I know who they are. Like I said, to initiate the hysteria, I saw about 5-6 Durham County Deputy Sheriff's patrol cars going past me (much more than the usual ocurrance of one) and 5-6 Durham Police Department patrol cars going past me, until they finally stopped me. I think that they were waiting to see if I was going to walk down to the woods and shoot the newly purchased handgun within Durham City limits to in fact, have an actual chargable offense. But when I did not, they decided to make the stop, start the harassment and questioning. You know it is harassment when one of the questions is "WHERE ARE YOU GOING, HUH? JUST WHERE DO YOU THINK YOU ARE GOING?" Verifiable details, how could this blog me more detailed? In fact, that is what they do, make enough ILLEGAL contact with you that is UNWANTED, until you do become irritated, as ANYONE would, then claim that your out of order or something. A CLEAR CUT LAW has been made to be UNCLEAR! North Carolina is a CLEAR CUT OPEN CARRY STATE! It matters NOT that I am not a LEO or a born citizen of this State, but that I fulfilled all of the requirements to obtain a valid pistol permit, which includes being a resident of this State for at least 6-months. The U.S. Contitution, Second Amendment allows one to carry the gun, check with the NRA. There is no better reason than for protection of yourself. I intend to carry it again without any problems. Oh yes, one of the "mouths", i.e. a Durham County Deputy was in Harris-Tetter, yesterday causing more problems with his mouth while I was in there. It goes to show you, one looking for trouble will find it, I am not, they are.
Was placed in a dangerous situation for the sake of an overprotective *** *** authoratative Durham County Deputy Sheriff who then uses another agency, Durham County Police as a "shelter" for himself under the premise that since he was sworn as a police officer, he can not be wrong, i.e. "illegal" and somehow it follows in is limited ignorant mind, that none of his actions therefore, can be wrong and/or illegal.
I'll have to look it up later to be sure, but doesn't Durham and Cary have statutes against open carry within their communities?
Cary has an OC ban on any city property, including sidewalks.
Chapel Hill bans OC of any handgun under a certain size, which I don't remember but is in the OC flier.
Durham County has handgun registration as allowed by the state, but no OC bans.
Not to sound like I'm defending the LEOs in question since they quite obviously overreacted like whoa to you lawfully exercizing your 2nd amendment rights, but a detention is not legally the same thing as an arrest. They do not need a charge to detain, only reasonable suspicion that you might have done something illegal. They need probable cause to arrest, however. I shall assume that since you weren't actually arrested that they blustered at you for a long while and, when you didn't crack, shook their fingers at you and left?
The Dogs of War are nothing compared to the Cats
Well, thanks for the replies. I am still going to open carry, even in Durham County. For more, you may want to check out abc11.com website, there is more about open carry in Cary and Greensboro. That clip was on abc news last night at 6pm and is on their website.
The cops want to feel needed. The gun and their ability to throw someone in jail are their tools. So when a non-law enforcement officer wears a gun, even legally, their usefulness and utility are psychologically threatened.
I just want to end by saying that the government, both city and local (police departments and their personnel included) mimic the current state of economy in the USA. A pathetic state that deserves a F-. Under other circumstances, I WOULD denounce my citizenship as a US Citizen and move to France or somewhere else. Not as a result of this single incident, but for the state in the USA alone. Doing that formally would bar you from gun ownership here; it is a shame that it has come to that.
I worked at a grocery store and I was actually happy working there. I didn't feel like I had to constantly kiss someones ass or try to please others. Over here, I am constantly having to be fake and kiss ass. I open carry because I want to. I don't care if it "offends you". If I see someone wearing an Obama shirt, that offends me, but they have the right to wear whatever they want.
I am getting my BA in French and afterwards my MA in French. I'm not sure what I want as a career, but I might end up living in France. You never know! I'd hate to have to sell my guns France has freedoms that we don't have here, but we have freedoms that they don't have. I'd give France an F- for gun laws. But, gun crime is super low there so I don't think I'd need a firearm as much there.
Last edited by mattwestm; 11-07-2010 at 11:49 AM.
"Am I free to go?"
"I will cooperate with you to the full extent required by law." [Basically, SHUT UP!]
"I do not consent to any searches or seizures of my person or property."
"Since I am being detained, I want to consult with a lawyer before talking with you further."
There is little difference between being detained and arrested, it was illegal search and seizure, even though the gun was returned during the incident! All that fuss was not necessary to prove that I was not a "bad guy." Those phrases even after they were informed that I had a legal pistol permit, did not work. Once again, if it happens again, I will immediately sue. Concerning cost to sue, you can do it yourself, Pro Se (without a lawyer).
Webster's dictionary defines "arrest" as being "stopped" and "turned around", not allowed to proceed, detained. In essence they are the same. The "reasonable suspicion" is bunk too. You need "probable cause." I was a victim of illegal search and seizure! The ignorant, ill-informed, hillbilly cops think they can ******** their way out of anything because they feel comfortable with the local county assistant state's (prosecuting) attorney. For the sentinel article on "probable cause" google "Gonzalez v. Illinois State Police" It is THE article on "probable cause" and is about an Illinois State trooper who did not have probable cause to search and seize, as he was his, K-9 bit the guy and he sued the State of Illinois.
Lawyers don't use Webster for their definitions. Again, I'm with you. You were absolutely overreacted to by those LEOs. I'm just asking you to tone down the LEO-bashing a bit.
The Dogs of War are nothing compared to the Cats