kwikrnu
Banned
There you go, the totality of the circumstances gave them the authority to arrest you.
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Open Carry in Durham North Carolina-Illegal Detainment!
- Thread starter rk44
- Start date
There you go, the totality of the circumstances gave them the authority to arrest you.
MKEgal
Regular Member
Phrases to remember:
"Am I free to go?"
"I will cooperate with you to the full extent required by law." [Basically, SHUT UP!]
"I do not consent to any searches or seizures of my person or property."
"Since I am being detained, I want to consult with a lawyer before talking with you further."
rk44
New member
Definition of the word "arrest"
There is little difference between being detained and arrested, it was illegal search and seizure, even though the gun was returned during the incident! All that fuss was not necessary to prove that I was not a "bad guy." Those phrases even after they were informed that I had a legal pistol permit, did not work. Once again, if it happens again, I will immediately sue. Concerning cost to sue, you can do it yourself, Pro Se (without a lawyer).
Webster's dictionary defines "arrest" as being "stopped" and "turned around", not allowed to proceed, detained. In essence they are the same. The "reasonable suspicion" is bunk too. You need "probable cause." I was a victim of illegal search and seizure! The ignorant, ill-informed, hillbilly cops think they can ******** their way out of anything because they feel comfortable with the local county assistant state's (prosecuting) attorney. For the sentinel article on "probable cause" google "Gonzalez v. Illinois State Police" It is THE article on "probable cause" and is about an Illinois State trooper who did not have probable cause to search and seize, as he was his, K-9 bit the guy and he sued the State of Illinois.
There is little difference between being detained and arrested, it was illegal search and seizure, even though the gun was returned during the incident! All that fuss was not necessary to prove that I was not a "bad guy." Those phrases even after they were informed that I had a legal pistol permit, did not work. Once again, if it happens again, I will immediately sue. Concerning cost to sue, you can do it yourself, Pro Se (without a lawyer).
Webster's dictionary defines "arrest" as being "stopped" and "turned around", not allowed to proceed, detained. In essence they are the same. The "reasonable suspicion" is bunk too. You need "probable cause." I was a victim of illegal search and seizure! The ignorant, ill-informed, hillbilly cops think they can ******** their way out of anything because they feel comfortable with the local county assistant state's (prosecuting) attorney. For the sentinel article on "probable cause" google "Gonzalez v. Illinois State Police" It is THE article on "probable cause" and is about an Illinois State trooper who did not have probable cause to search and seize, as he was his, K-9 bit the guy and he sued the State of Illinois.
Kivuli
Regular Member
Lawyers don't use Webster for their definitions. 
Again, I'm with you. You were absolutely overreacted to by those LEOs. I'm just asking you to tone down the LEO-bashing a bit.
Again, I'm with you. You were absolutely overreacted to by those LEOs. I'm just asking you to tone down the LEO-bashing a bit.
kwikrnu
Banned
Lawyers don't use Webster for their definitions.
I agree, the cop bashing in this thread is overwhelming and makes me sick.
Dreamer
Regular Member
So let me get this straight... A police officer was harassing you for OC, and suggested that the way to avoid this in the future was to commit a CRIME?
CCW=Carrying a Concealed Weapon.
The ONLY time this phrase is used in NC Statute is to describe a CRIME! If you recorded this conversation, you need to forward it to the NC AG and the FBI, because this officer was colluding to entice you into committing a crime for a guarantee of protection against harassment, which is itself a crime--ESPECIALLY for an LEO.
Lawyer up...
And remember in NC, the permit you get for lawful concealed carry is called a Concealed Handgun Permit--CHP...
CCW is a crime, defined by statute.
CHP is a special permit, that gives you the privilege of carrying a concealed handgun in certain situations...
Know the terms -- speak the truth.
kwikrnu
Banned
Cop bashing is writing anything negative about any cop. On a side note, all cops should get a raise.
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Kivuli
Regular Member
is what I was specifically referring to, Xulld.
kwikrnu
Banned
I agree, there are no ignorant or ill-informed cops. All cops come from big cities so there are no hillbilly cops and never have been.
calynn
Regular Member
For you all who say he was cop-bashing, I'd recommend you change places in the situation. Seeing how I was arrested a few weeks ago for the same thing while getting my truck inspected, I know what he means. If a cop says the only way to OC is to strap your gun on top of your head so that it's visible from 360 degrees, he is an uninformed idiot of a law enforcement officer and should learn the laws that he is sworn to enforce.
Northerner
Regular Member
Although I love to OC, I do have a CHP to avoid this very issue. Scenario: Open Carrying (slightly forward on the hip), but wearing a short coat that still allows one to see I am carrying if in front of me and the SERPA II is visible under the hem of the coat (certainly not 360 degrees). If you can see my firearm, I am OCing (open to the LEO's interpretation of "concealed"). If stopped and asked or harassed by LEO because he/she believes I am carrying concealed; no problem, "here is my CHP." If the LEO states I am not carrying concealed enough, I would respond with "Than I am opening carrying" (legal in NC) which than I am sure the LEO would than say, "No, you are carrying concealed" THAN I'd say "here's my CHP." yet again. I would also say "Am I being detained? Am I free to go?" The LEO's logic and ability to detain me further is, IMO, no longer valid. I know, I know he/she can say I am being disorderly, but really am I?
sultan62
Regular Member
I'm currently waiting on my CHP, mainly so I can carry with a coat on and carry in SC, but if I'm clearly OCing I will likely not carry my CHP with me. OC is my right that fortunately, does not require a permit/license in NC. I don't intend to supply it just because "my gun wasn't visible 360" if I ever encounter such a situation.
Northerner
Regular Member
Ah yes, I would agree with your thought process, however it will come down to the officers opinion of concealed vs. open. Having that CHP in your wallet 24/7 (when you get it) will be your "get out of jail free" card.
You might want to look at North Dakota's definition of "concealed" and consider getting someone to sponsor a bill with this or similar wording.
62.1-04-01. Definition of concealed
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]A firearm or dangerous weapon is concealed if it is carried in such a manner as to not be discernible by the ordinary observation of a passerby. There is no requirement that there be absolute invisibility of the firearm or dangerous weapon, merely that it not be ordinarily discernible. A firearm or dangerous weapon is considered concealed if it is not secured, and is worn under clothing or carried in a bundle that is held or carried by the individual, or transported in a vehicle under the individual's control or direction and available to the individual, including beneath the seat or in a glove compartment. A firearm or dangerous weapon is not considered concealed if it is:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]1. Carried in a belt holster which is wholly or substantially visible or carried in a case designed for carrying a firearm or dangerous weapon and which is wholly or substantially visible;[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]2. Locked in a closed trunk or luggage compartment of a motor vehicle;[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]3. Carried in the field while lawfully engaged in hunting, trapping, or target shooting, whether visible or not;or[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]4. Carried by any person permitted by law to possess a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to that person's home or place of business, or to a place of repair, or back from those locations.
5. A bow and arrow, an unloaded rifle or shotgun, or an unloaded weapon that will expel, or is readily capable of expelling, a projectile by the action of a spring, compressed air, or compressed gas including any such weapon commonly referred to as a BB gun, air rifle, or CO2 gun, while carried in a motor vehicle.
http://www.mtssa.org/ndcwplaw.htm
[/FONT]
62.1-04-01. Definition of concealed
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]A firearm or dangerous weapon is concealed if it is carried in such a manner as to not be discernible by the ordinary observation of a passerby. There is no requirement that there be absolute invisibility of the firearm or dangerous weapon, merely that it not be ordinarily discernible. A firearm or dangerous weapon is considered concealed if it is not secured, and is worn under clothing or carried in a bundle that is held or carried by the individual, or transported in a vehicle under the individual's control or direction and available to the individual, including beneath the seat or in a glove compartment. A firearm or dangerous weapon is not considered concealed if it is:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]1. Carried in a belt holster which is wholly or substantially visible or carried in a case designed for carrying a firearm or dangerous weapon and which is wholly or substantially visible;[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]2. Locked in a closed trunk or luggage compartment of a motor vehicle;[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]3. Carried in the field while lawfully engaged in hunting, trapping, or target shooting, whether visible or not;or[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]4. Carried by any person permitted by law to possess a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to that person's home or place of business, or to a place of repair, or back from those locations.
5. A bow and arrow, an unloaded rifle or shotgun, or an unloaded weapon that will expel, or is readily capable of expelling, a projectile by the action of a spring, compressed air, or compressed gas including any such weapon commonly referred to as a BB gun, air rifle, or CO2 gun, while carried in a motor vehicle.
http://www.mtssa.org/ndcwplaw.htm
[/FONT]
kwikrnu
Banned
Cops are always right even if you think they are wrong. :hammer:
rk44
New member
"Open Carry in Durham North Carolina-Illegal Detainment!"
Yes! That is true! One of the three Durham City Police Officers did tell me to wear it CONCEALED to prevent panic by public ocurring again. Then he left the scene and the other two Durham City Police officers, while running my license, told me to enter into a CCW course and pay the application fee. This was not only collusion, but confusion and smoke blowing to cover their tracks for an illegal search and seizure to hurdle into a charge for anything. Again the blogger who stated that only suscpicion is needed is highly incorrect, PROBABLE CAUSE is needed to prevent all of this. NO about the Concealed vs. Open Carry argument, the carrying a gun to cause terror charge is their way to charge you EITHER WAY!!!!! That charge is a misdemeanor, the concealed charge is a felony. It's all bull in the end. They just have to be involved with EVERYTHING! Low paid government personel going beyond their right to "excercise authority" because they did not have the right in my case. They cleared the situation when they saw me carrying the gun OPEN CARRY plainly visible in it's holster. Now was their intent to scare me into hidding it to charge me with carrying it concealed, probably so. So that speaks to their corruption in the first place. Going further to seize the gun and arrest me after being informed that I had a valid pistol permit and was carrying it in the proper manner, was a vioation of my due process rights, guaranteed by many US Const. Amendments, including 4th, 6th, 12th..... Really they did not even have the right to question me about it, since it was being carried properly. They should have called the Complaintant and told her that it is totally legal to open carry in NC and that she should not become so hysterical and panic next time. But again, you have to consider the intelligence, training and education of street cops, including deputy sheriffs. Did you see the gunning down of two people on Holloway Street in North Durham yesterday in the afternoon at a convienent mart? That is why I have the handgun, to protect myself, nothing else.
Yes! That is true! One of the three Durham City Police Officers did tell me to wear it CONCEALED to prevent panic by public ocurring again. Then he left the scene and the other two Durham City Police officers, while running my license, told me to enter into a CCW course and pay the application fee. This was not only collusion, but confusion and smoke blowing to cover their tracks for an illegal search and seizure to hurdle into a charge for anything. Again the blogger who stated that only suscpicion is needed is highly incorrect, PROBABLE CAUSE is needed to prevent all of this. NO about the Concealed vs. Open Carry argument, the carrying a gun to cause terror charge is their way to charge you EITHER WAY!!!!! That charge is a misdemeanor, the concealed charge is a felony. It's all bull in the end. They just have to be involved with EVERYTHING! Low paid government personel going beyond their right to "excercise authority" because they did not have the right in my case. They cleared the situation when they saw me carrying the gun OPEN CARRY plainly visible in it's holster. Now was their intent to scare me into hidding it to charge me with carrying it concealed, probably so. So that speaks to their corruption in the first place. Going further to seize the gun and arrest me after being informed that I had a valid pistol permit and was carrying it in the proper manner, was a vioation of my due process rights, guaranteed by many US Const. Amendments, including 4th, 6th, 12th..... Really they did not even have the right to question me about it, since it was being carried properly. They should have called the Complaintant and told her that it is totally legal to open carry in NC and that she should not become so hysterical and panic next time. But again, you have to consider the intelligence, training and education of street cops, including deputy sheriffs. Did you see the gunning down of two people on Holloway Street in North Durham yesterday in the afternoon at a convienent mart? That is why I have the handgun, to protect myself, nothing else.
Maverick9110e
Regular Member
Exactly while i'll be going for my CHP in a few months... The just in case. Just in case my jacket or shirt somehow covers some part there is no debate that can get me in trouble for CC'ing. Also it's easier to work with in the car as to where you can put it without it technically being concealed.
edrolee
Regular Member
if a cop is out to get you for carrying then he is going to find an excuse...............
if your OC and the LEO says your concealed and then you produce your CHP then he, if he's just looking for an excuse, will get you for failure to inform him immediately upon first contact with him that your carrying concealed w/ a CHP as is required by NC law
i respect LE for what they do but they don't know all the laws, there are to darned many laws for nearly ANYONE to know them all by heart that's the problem with living in a society that every one thinks they have a RIGHT to NOT be offended and in a society that rewards crooks in lawsuits where they were injured in commission of a crime
if your OC and the LEO says your concealed and then you produce your CHP then he, if he's just looking for an excuse, will get you for failure to inform him immediately upon first contact with him that your carrying concealed w/ a CHP as is required by NC law
i respect LE for what they do but they don't know all the laws, there are to darned many laws for nearly ANYONE to know them all by heart that's the problem with living in a society that every one thinks they have a RIGHT to NOT be offended and in a society that rewards crooks in lawsuits where they were injured in commission of a crime
Well said.
I would also urge RK to hesitate in trying to deduce the police officers motivations. Sometimes its just a combination of being an authority figure, not having the best knowledge of the laws and feeling the need to respond to a complaint. Sometimes if you give them the benefit of the doubt, respect them and continue the communication in an open and friendly way, you can make a positive difference. I was not there and will not tell you what to do, but I do always urge a rational, calm, and patient response to situations that you where subjected to in which you where not harmed.
EVERYONE has bias, EVERYONE. Its much better to understand your own bias, and make allowances for other peoples bias, and understand that many times if bias seems excessive its usually due to a lack of knowledge, not malicious intentions. The only way to work toward understanding is to be calm, rational, and not too harsh, critical, ect ect. The only way to convince someone you have a good point is to be someone they are willing to listen to, all humans will shut down and stop listening when they think the person on the other end is against them personally and not against an idea or misunderstanding. Every one of us can be a vicious son of a _____, if we think someone is out to get us personally, so I understand your frustration, and I urge you to understand the response you will get from these officers if you return the ire you feel you have received. So its best to not make it personal, even if you think someone's motive is X; if your goal is to deescalate then its not good to trumpet that thought.
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