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Concealed Carry bill to be introduced when the new Legislative session starts in Jan.

Doug Huffman

Banned
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
9,180
Location
Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin,
Reminds me of a country western song..."We're rolling downhill like a snowball headed for hell....."
I'll have to look. I just today received my Christmas gift from an old - older'n me - friend, a half-Tera byte HD of DRM free music. Andrea Bocelli Romanza Caruso is playin'.

A half-TB of music and my new KINDLE of difficult reading and I'm set for some great naps this winter! Gotta get some Etymotic ER6i buds. LOL
 

springfield 1911

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Messages
484
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Racine, Wisconsin, USA
We have the state supreme court damn near saying that 941.23 is unconstitutional, We have a D.A. in Jackson Co. who says he will only prosecute firearm charges if a crime was commited and recently the judge in Clark Co. ruling as much that 941.23 is unconstitutional , And many here are willing to grobble for a few meer crumbs, Even pay for it ! What are you willing to pay for a priviledge ? 250.00, 350.00 450.00 Repeal of 941.23 is the only clean option!
By the way they will push to end open carry!

Readers from other states Feel free to voice your opinions, Are Wi. residents to eager to settle for less than what's obtainable?
 

The Don

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in your pants
No but this was directed at you;



You've been OCing in your back yard for how many weeks now?

And you better smile when you call me boy, sonny.

Just a bit less than you've been OCing legally in Wisconsin, but not nearly as long as you've been a liar and a hypocrite and a bully and a braggart.
 

LOERetired

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We have a chance at having Wisconsin Statute .941.23 declared unconstitutional

We have the state supreme court damn near saying that 941.23 is unconstitutional, We have a D.A. in Jackson Co. who says he will only prosecute firearm charges if a crime was commited and recently the judge in Clark Co. ruling as much that 941.23 is unconstitutional , And many here are willing to grobble for a few meer crumbs, Even pay for it ! What are you willing to pay for a priviledge ? 250.00, 350.00 450.00 Repeal of 941.23 is the only clean option!
By the way they will push to end open carry!

Readers from other states Feel free to voice your opinions, Are Wi. residents to eager to settle for less than what's obtainable?


We have a chance at having Wisconsin Statute .941.23 declared unconstitutional if the court case is appealed. If it is appealed to a higher court, and the prosecution looses the appeal, than the repercussions are state wide. As it is right now, the unconstitutionality of 941.23 are only at the county level.

Right now, we do not want the new legislators to introduce a bill for concealed carry; we want the court case to be appealed to a higher court. If the appeals court or even the State Supreme Court hears the case and they agree with the lower court, and decide that the Wisconsin Statute 941.23 is unconstitutional, we all win, constitutional concealed carry without a licensing requirement will be a reality, but, If the legislators introduces a bill before this case is heard before a higher court and decided on than the legislators could pass a bill restricting constitutional carry, which we don’t want. We don’t want a licensing or training requirement to carry concealed.

If you haven’t read the court case here it is. The argument is plausible, in that due to the continued harassment of Law Enforcement, open carry is not a viable option for all citizens. Because of the harassment, the judge concluded that the citizens of Wisconsin cannot effectively exercise their right to carry for self defense under the Wisconsin Constitution.

Let this court case make its way through the courts, the argument presented by the judge in this case is compelling. The Wisconsin Statute 941.23 is overly broad, and too restrictive. Citizens under this statute cannot reasonably and without harassment, protect and defend themselves as the Wisconsin Constitution was intended for. I don’t know where the court case is as far as being appealed by the prosecutor, but, we should wait and see what becomes of the case before we begin writing our representatives asking for a bill to carry concealed. We do that, and we are shooting ourselves in the foot (pun intended) and putting the legislators in the driver’s seat, whereas right now we, as citizens with this court decision, are in the drivers seat.

STATE OF WISCONSIN CIRCUIT COURT CLARK COUNTY
STATE OF WISCONSIN
Plaintiff/Petitioner DECISION GRANTING MOTION TO DISMISS
vs.
JOSHUA D. SCHULTZ Case No. 10-CM-138
Defendant/Respondent

The complaint in this matter alleges that on June 10, 2010, the defendant was carrying a concealed weapon, a knife in the waistband of his pants which was covered by his shirt. The State alleges this is contrary to section 941.23, Wis. Stats. Defendant challenges the statute as unconstitutional “on its face, and because the statute is overbroad, abridges his privileges or immunities as a United States citizen, and violates his due process rights as guaranteed by the Second and Fourteenth Amendments.” Def. Brief, p. 2.

Analysis of this issue starts with the United States Supreme Court decisions in District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783 (2008) and McDonald v. City of Chicago No. 08-1521 (U.S. June 28, 2010). Unfortunately, neither of these cases stated with certainty the level of scrutiny that should be applied to laws that infringe upon a citizen’s Second Amendment rights. This court concludes that a strict scrutiny test should be applied in evaluating the statute in question here, section 941.23. The court reaches this conclusion because sec. 941.23 absolutely prohibits the carrying of concealed weapons for all persons in Wisconsin, except “peace officers.” The statute flatly prohibits a certain behavior/activity. It thus takes away what this court understands Heller and McDonald to deem an individual and fundamental right. Strict scrutiny arises when a fundamental constitutional right, as those listed in the Bill of Rights, is infringed, and that Right has been deemed to apply to the States by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment. United States v. Carolene, 304 U.S. 144 (1938). To pass strict scrutiny, sec. 941.23 must:

1. be justified by a compelling governmental interest;
2. be narrowly tailored to achieve that interest; and
3. be the least restrictive means for achieving that interest.

The apparent government interest in prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons is the State’s “police power to protect the health, safety, and welfare of its citizens.” See State v. Hamdan, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 463 (2003). Promotion of health, safety and welfare of citizens is an appropriate use of the police power. However, the court must proceed to answer the remaining questions to determine if the power is appropriately used here.

Is sec. 941.23 narrowly tailored to achieve the State’s interest? The answer is clearly “no.” As stated in Hamdan, “the statute prohibits any person, except a peace officer, from carrying a concealed weapon, regardless of the circumstances, including pursuit of one of the lawful purposes enumerated in Article I, Section 25 [of the Wisconsin Constitution].” Id. at p. 465. Hamdan went on to state that “we have described Wisconsin’s exceptionally restrictive scheme to show how it heightens the conflict between [sec. 941.23] and the rights in Article I, Section 25 [of the Wisconsin Constitution]” (Id., at p. 470, emphasis added) and, this court would add, the conflict with the fundamental right set forth in the Second Amendment.

Thus, the Wisconsin Supreme Court has called sec. 941.23 an “exceptionally restrictive scheme.” Such a scheme cannot in any sense be considered as “narrowly tailored.” Justice N. Patrick Crooks in his concurrence/dissent to Hamdan stated:

“The majority in this case improperly reads exceptions into Wis. Stat. § 941.23 in order to hold that it is constitutional. Such exceptions to the statute should be not be made by this court, but by the legislature. Looking at the statute itself, I conclude that Wis. Stat. § 941.23 has become unconstitutional with the passage of Article I, Section 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution…. If the statute does not conform to the Wisconsin Constitution, as amended, then the statute is unconstitutional.”

Hamdan, concurrence, at p. 494. Justice Crooks did not use the phrase, but he is in essence saying that courts should not engage in judicial activism—the philosophy of judicial decision making whereby judges’ decisions are not based on the law as it is written, whether it be a regulation, statute or the Constitution itself but instead are based on personal views, political views or perceptions of desired public policy. Judicial activism substitutes the view of the courts for the view of the people as expressed through their elected legislature. “Policy decisions affecting the statute’s constitutionality should be made in typical legislative fashion.” Id., at p. 496.

When this court examines this case in view of Hamdan as affected by Heller and McDonald, Justice Crooks’ analysis prevails—leading to the conclusion that sec. 941.23 in not narrowly tailored and therefore is unconstitutional. “A statute which under the pretense of regulating, amounts to a destruction of the right, or which requires arms to be so borne as to render them wholly useless for the purpose of defense, would be clearly unconstitutional.” Heller, p. 56, n. 27. “The breadth of [sec. 941.23] is incompatible with the broad constitutional right to bear arms. Its prohibition extends to anyone at any time and, therefore, improperly an unnecessarily impinges on a person’s right to bear arms ‘for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose.’ … [The statute] logically extends to such a wide variety of scenarios that it leaves no ‘open ample alternative channels by which the citizen may exercise the right at issue.’” Hamdan, concurrence,pp. 495-496.

Heller and McDonald, recognize the fundamental and personal right written, in plain English, in the Second Amendment. These two decisions reinforce the need for the sec. 941.23 to be narrowly tailored and, in addition, the least restrictive means of the State achieving its goal. The statute is neither. As written, sec. 941.23:
1. Prohibits a gun or knife owner from storing his weapons out of plain sight, such as in a gun cabinet, closet or drawer in his own home.

2. Prohibits a store owner from storing his weapons out of plain sight at his place of business, a store in a “rough” neighborhood.

3. Prohibits the logger, hiker, cross country skier and other outdoors person from keeping his weapon out of plain sight, but available, in the event of a wolf, bear or other wild animal attack.
4. It prohibits judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys, court staff and child support agency workers (and many others) that have received legitimate death threats from carrying a concealed weapon for personal safety.
The court could continue this list ad infinitum. The point of the list is that it shows the over breadth and over reach of sec. 941.23. The statute applies a leaden blanket to when silk would suffice. Persons on the list, and many others, are faced with a Hobson’s choice—go unarmed (thus not able to act in self defense), violate the law (and risk jail/fines) or (as some would argue) carry openly. However, the argument that one could carry or display the weapon openly (holding it in the open, in a visible holster, or on the wall in plain sight) is not a realistic alternative. Even the Hamdan majority said:

“Such practices would alert criminals to the presence of the weapon and frighten friends and customers. Likewise, requiring the gun owner to leave a handgun in plain view in his or her store so that he or she avoids a CCW charge fails the litmus test of common sense. We do not think it is necessary to spell out the dangers created by making firearms more accessible to children, to assailants, to strangers, and to guests. In fact, leaving a firearm in the open could expose a gun owner to other liability, both criminal and civil. See Wis. Stat. §§ 948.55 (prohibiting the leaving of a loaded firearm within the reach or easy access of a child) and 947.01 (prohibiting disorderly conduct).
There is no dispute that most storeowners have the right to possess a firearm. As a practical matter, the storeowner who keeps a firearm for security must have the gun within easy reach. Requiring a storeowner to openly display weapons as the only available means of exercising the right to keep and bear arms for security is impractical, unsettling, and possibly dangerous. If the State prosecutes a storeowner for having a concealed weapon within easy reach, it is strongly discouraging the use of firearms for security and is practically nullifying the right to do so. Such a prosecution is very likely to impair the constitutional right to bear arms for security.”
Hamdan, at pp. 481-482. Thus, the Hamdan majority recognized that open carry or open display was not and is not a feasible alternative to concealed carry. Open carry or display could result in the gun owner violating other laws regarding access of minors to guns or result in overzealous police and/or prosecutors charging disorderly conduct under sec. 947.01, Wis. Stats., for (what this court considers) the lawful open carrying and display of handguns. The argument that this will not happen with reasonable prosecutors has already been proven wrong. See the Wisconsin State Journal article, at the following citation: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_26e20b12-c6b4-11df-9b03-001cc4c002e0.html This article details how five men were issued disorderly conduct citations for eating at a Culver’s restaurant while having firearms in holsters in plain view. The Hamdan court, apparently, was prophetic on this issue.

The Hamdan decision also shows that an absolute ban on concealed carry is not least restrictive. At the time Hamdan was written, Wisconsin was “one of only six states that generally disallow any class of ordinary citizens to lawfully carry concealed weapons.” As of now, Wisconsin is one of only two States that do not permit the carrying of concealed weapons under any circumstances. Halbrook, Firearms Law Deskbook, 2009-2010 Edition, Appendix A. Thus when Hamdan was written there were 44 States, and now there are 48 States, that have an alternative that is less restrictive than Wisconsin’s absolute prohibition. Despite the varying concealed carry laws allowing “ordinary” citizens to carry concealed weapons in 48 States, there have been no shootouts in town squares, no mass vigilante shootings or other violent outbreaks attributable to allowed concealed carry. There is a strong argument that guns, and concealed carry of them, makes citizens safer. See John Lott, More Guns, Less Crime, Third Edition, 2010, The University of Chicago Press.

In 48 States, less restrictive possession, conceal or permit statutes allow citizens to carry concealed weapons. Many of those statutes were analyzed in Hamdan itself. See Hamdan, p. 466, n. 22. This court will not repeat that analysis, other than to say that it clearly demonstrates the feasibility and functionality of less restrictive alternatives.
Thus, while the State has an interest in public safety, sec. 941.23 is unconstitutional because it is not narrowly tailored to achieve the State’s interest nor is it the least restrictive means for achieving that interest.
The parties have not addressed the issue of whether under Hamdan, defendant meets the Hamdan judicial exception to the sec. 941.23 concealed carry prohibition for weapons kept at home or place of business. The complaint alleges that defendant was in a private apartment when a deputy opened the door and defendant immediately said “Hey relax, I got a knife here, all I want to do is smoke a cigarette.” The deputy then asked where the knife was and defendant pulled up his shirt and showed it to the deputy. As the parties addressed only the broader constitutional issue, so has this court.

In addition, as noted above, this court agrees with Justice Clarence Thomas’s McDonald concurrence and application of the Fourteenth Amendment to this matter. In essence, no State shall abridge the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States. As Justice Thomas demonstrates, the right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right, not created by the Second Amendment, but secured or recognized by it. The right to keep and bear arms is therefore not to be abridged by any State law. Sec. 941.23 must also fail under the application of the Fourteenth Amendment.

In sum, sec. 941.23 is unconstitutional on its face as overly broad in violation of the Second and Fourteenth Amendments of the United States Constitution.
The clerk’s office is directed to prepare an order of dismissal based on this decision.
The order of dismissal is considered by the court to be a final order for purposes of any appeal.
Dated: October 14, 2010

By the Court:
 

Captain Nemo

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My response to rep. Gunderson and to some members on this forum is. What part of "The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation, or any other lawful purpose". There is no specific manner of carry mentioned, there is no specific type of hiunting mentioned, there is no specific type of recreation mentioned. The presumption is that all types of lawful hunting by qualified persons is included. Not just duck hunting or deer hunting or bear hunting or hunting with bow or arrow, or hunting with a crossbow or hunting with a firearm. The amendment presumes all types of hunting with weapons classified as arms. Likewise recreation includes all types of legal recreation i.e. archery, skeet shooting, cowboy action shooting, trap shooting, etc. So it is only reasonable that when the amendment says "bear arms" without specifying a paticular manner that all manners of carry are intended. The only correct solution is recind 941.23 so that we have true constitution protected choice of carry.

I am suprised that with all the dialog that has taken place on this forum that there are still members that are hung up on getting legislation passed to give us shall-issue concealed carry with all it's baggage of training, licenses, additional regulations and more likely than not at the sacrifice of our already recognized right to open carry. If you are unhappy with the relatively minor restriction on where we can open carry just wait until you see the restrictions that will be piled on concealed carry i.e. daycares, churches, little league games, sport stadiums, outdoor concerts etc. etc. etc. If you don't believe me go back and read the old personal protection act that Doyle mercifully killed.

There are some persons on this forum that two years ago said we should take what we can get and build on it. They said that our goals were unattainable. I ask those people to reflect on our gains in the last year and a half and if they still think our goal of choice of carry is still out of reach.

Springfield 1911 is absolutely correct the constitutionality of 941.23 is suspect in many arenas. jackson county DA, Clark county judge, at least two members of the Wisconsin supreme court and I suspect the attorney general himself. A note on the WSC. There are new justices on the court that are less liberal to the court that ruled on Hamdan, Cole and Fischer. My opinion is that if the current court had ruled on the constitutionality of 941.23 in Hamdan and Cole the results would have been different.

I can understand Rep Gunderson's desire to submit conceal carry legislation. The failure of the personal protection act he co-sponsored left him and the NRA with a job undone. As I experienced during the days of the PPA I doubt that he is willing to consider alternatives.

It is my opinion that we should keep the momentum going and campaign hard for recind of 941.23 and inform Rep Gunderson that Article I section 25 says we have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms and we don't want that morphed into a PRIVLEGE to keep and bear arms.
 

Viper

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Do we have a lawmaker willing to summit a bill that simply states repeal 941.23?

I believe that is exactly what we should be requesting in writing to our state legislators in January, to submit a bill for the clean repeal of 941.23.

All of us, not to depend on just the few to do it.

Correct me if I am wrong please.
 
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apjonas

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Doesn't Logical Consistency

demand that a repeal of 941.23 be accompanied by a repeal of 941.235, 941.237, 941.24, 941.26, 941.28, 941.295, 948.605 and 167.31? If you advocate the repeal of 941.23, how can you not work as hard towards the repeal of these other sections?
 

Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman

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We have a chance at having Wisconsin Statute .941.23 declared unconstitutional if the court case is appealed. If it is appealed to a higher court, and the prosecution looses the appeal, than the repercussions are state wide. As it is right now, the unconstitutionality of 941.23 are only at the county level.

The Wisconsin Supreme Court's solution to the unconstitutionality of the blanket ban that 941.23 imposes WAS A PERMIT SYSTEM.

EVEN IF the Clark County case is appealed to the supreme court and upheld, that would NOT prevent the legislature from enacting a permit system which the Wisconsin Supreme Court would almost certainly find CONSTITUTIONAL.

941.23 has only been asserted unconstitutional because its a blanket ban.

The court does NOT share our belief that a permit is unconstitutional. They only believe a blanket ban is unconstitutional.

Only legislation (a repeal of 941.23) will secure your right to carry without a permit. And trust me, we will STILL have to be vigilant year after year for a politician to introduce a permit system in the name of "safety" suggesting it would reduce crime.
 

LOERetired

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My letter to the Governor

The Wisconsin Supreme Court's solution to the unconstitutionality of the blanket ban that 941.23 imposes WAS A PERMIT SYSTEM.

EVEN IF the Clark County case is appealed to the supreme court and upheld, that would NOT prevent the legislature from enacting a permit system which the Wisconsin Supreme Court would almost certainly find CONSTITUTIONAL.

941.23 has only been asserted unconstitutional because its a blanket ban.

The court does NOT share our belief that a permit is unconstitutional. They only believe a blanket ban is unconstitutional.

Only legislation (a repeal of 941.23) will secure your right to carry without a permit. And trust me, we will STILL have to be vigilant year after year for a politician to introduce a permit system in the name of "safety" suggesting it would reduce crime.

I was under the assumption that WCI position was that they didn’t want the legislature to act on any bill until the case was appealed and thought so because, when I attended the open carry tea party in Hudson Wisconsin, Hubert as V.P. of WCI gave a speech and part of his message within his speech was about not requesting legislative action for concealed carry until the current case was appealed.

Being unaware of the time limits for the prosecution to appeal had passed, I was still under the assumption WCI’s position was to wait and see when I wrote in the blog. Based on your response, though, can I assume the WCI current position is to repeal the unconstitutional statute?

If so, then I agree with the rest of the members and WCI that we should be writing strong demanding letters to the newly elected officials specifically requesting the unconstitutional statute be repealed. The letter should be specific, incorporating a strong argument for the appeal of Wisconsin Statute 941.23 and include citations to back up the argument.


My letter to the Governor


Governor Scott Walker
P.O. Box 7863
Madison, WI 53707

November 5, 2010

Governor,


My letter today is about Wisconsin Statute 941.23 which has recently been found unconstitutional on its face by a Clark County Circuit Judge in "State v. Joshua D. Schultz, Clark County Case No. 10-CM-138" as overly broad in violation of Article I, Section 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution and the Second and Fourteenth Amendments of the United States Constitution.

The government’s interest in prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons is the State’s “police power to protect the health, safety, and welfare of its citizens.” See State v. Hamdan, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 463 (2003)”. Is the Promotion of health, safety, and welfare, of citizens an appropriate use of the police power? As the Governor, you must proceed to answer the question and determine if the power is appropriately used here.

Is sec. 941.23 narrowly tailored to achieve the State’s interest? The answer as Governor should clearly be “no.” In Hamdan, “the statute prohibits any person, except a peace officer, from carrying a concealed weapon, regardless of the circumstances, including pursuit of one of the lawful purposes enumerated in Article I, Section 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution.

In reading Hamdan the court went on to state that “we have described Wisconsin’s exceptionally restrictive scheme to show how it heightens the conflict between sec. 941.23 and the rights in Article I, Section 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution adding to the conflict is the fundamental rights set forth in the Second Amendment.
Wisconsin statute 941.23 prohibits judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys, court staff and child support agency workers, and many more citizens that have received legitimate death threats from carrying a concealed weapon for personal safety.

Open carry or open display of a firearm is not a feasible alternative to concealed carry. Open carry can and has resulted in overzealous police and/or prosecutors charging disorderly conduct under sec. 947.01, Wis. Stats., for what the court considers the lawful open carrying and display of handguns.
The argument that this will not happen with reasonable prosecutors has already been proven wrong. See the Wisconsin State Journal article, at the following citation: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/loc...cc4c002e0.html This article details how five men were issued disorderly conduct citations for eating at a Culver’s restaurant while having firearms in holsters in plain view.

Thus, while the State has an interest in public safety, sec. 941.23 is unconstitutional because it is not narrowly tailored to achieve the State’s interest nor is it the least restrictive means for achieving that interest.

In essence, no State shall abridge the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States. The right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right, not created by the Second Amendment, but secured or recognized by it. The right to keep and bear arms is therefore not to be abridged by any State law. Sec. 941.23 must also fail under the application of the Fourteenth Amendment and must be repealed.


Don Marso
 

Mlutz

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Did anyone miss this?

"NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that Republican Party of Wisconsin, in caucus assembled, urges the Wisconsin Legislature to adopt legislation permitting law-abiding citizens without a felony record or a record of serious mental health problems to obtain permits to carry concealed weapons;"

From http://www.wisgop.org/site/c.rtJUJ4MNIqE/b.6061581/k.6E49/Platform__Resolutions.htm

Now, where did all of the "constitutional carry" as a republican platform come in exactly? I read "permits" in the above quote, did you? Not that I agree, just saying...
 

Doug Huffman

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Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin,
How embarasssing!

No, I did not. I did take this WCI disinformation for gospel and repeated it to a party officer at my AmLegion meeting last night. He said that he didn't remember "no-permit" from the platform construction meeting.
It is time to start calling and writing all the state GOP winners from yesterday. Remind them that the GOP platform is for "no-permit" carry in WI and
Believe nothing that you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your preexisting world view.

The GOP is dead (BUSH-41), DEAD (BUSH-43), dead at liars hands. How is an entity that cannot be embarrassed described? PHAUGH!

Bill, sorry, you were right last night. Evidently the platform was NOT changed. I was wrong, misinformed by someone inflating himself and his importance.

The offer of dinner stands. I been there, done that, a new bachelor, and it sucks eating out every night. Doug.
 
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