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A chance to speak to Generals

DustoneGT

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
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, ,
Control

The second generation French model of absolute control was obsolete by World War II. Germany used the third gen approach where officers were rewarded instead of punished for disobeying orders if the officer was showing strategic initiative to accomplish the mission's goal.

The only reason they lost WWII was the sheer number of Soviet bodies thrown at them. US and British forces were largely a historical footnote in any honest appraisal of the war.

Now cartels, terrorist groups and others are pushing things into the fourth generation.

It boggles my mind that US forces are still largely stuck in 2G strategy and thinking. Our forces will continue to be deprived of the best and brightest until they change their ways.
 

slowfiveoh

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
1,415
Location
Richmond, VA
Most personnel in the military react just the same to "authority threats", as the regular citizens of this country do.

I have to disagree about the "property of the US government" comment. While this is thoroughly beaten into your head, the truth of the matter is that command individuals leverage this mentality to get you to do things you would not normally do.

Let me back up for a second and say that I understand the absolute need for soldiers who follow orders. Let me also state that I have some pretty unique run ins with command individuals who will run willy-nilly all over you if given the opportunity.

I'll share a story to demonstrate (Sorry, this may be lengthy):

After deploying for the invasion during OIF I, I found myself tasked to various TDY and other unit oriented tasks (DPC/"Purple Ramp" etc.). Our unit was very "Hooah" about everything, and every task that came down from USAREUR, we volunteered for.

When the dust finally settled, I arranged a dental appointment over on another close post. I'm a sanitary dude, but I hadn't had my teeth looked at in over a year and half, so it was about that time.

Around this time I was seeing some ridiculously hot blonde. You know, all the right curves in all the right places, green eyes, huge ...you know. What was also hot was she was a 52D...a generator mechanic.

Well, around the time I was suppose to be at the dentists office, I ended up bumping into her in the hall. Somehow I ended up in her room, etc. ;)

Missing an appointment without canceling in advance is pretty messed up, since medical resources were thin on our post, and just slotting to get in was difficult because of the ratio of patients to doctors.

2 days later, during a weekend field exercise, top (A term for a First Sergeant) calls me in.

"Why did you miss your dentist appointment?" he asked.

"No excuse First Sergeant, I knew I had the appointment and I neglected to cancel it before no-showing", I replied.

"You're going to go ahead and buff my floor in the battery area for the next week. Every morning before first formation, and every night after final formation."

"I understand top. Sorry for missing my appointment.".

This is proper "corrective training". I smiled and did what I was told to do when I was told to do it. I was the one who screwed up, and this is part of individual integrity.

The Battery floor was so polished for the next week that just before I was supposed to be done with my corrective training, First Sergeant came out and said, "You going to miss any other dental appointments?".

I said, "No top".

He says, "This floor looks great and has looked like you put personal pride into it all week. You're released from special duty, be gone.".

"Hooah First Sergeant".


This is a common type of corrective scenario. This is the way things should be conducted.

In another scenario that personally happened to me and members of my unit, a new First Sergeant was ignoring orders from a 4 star general (General B.B. Bell at that time), and retaining soldiers during periods of time wherein he was ordered to release them. In fact, the order was so stringent, Sgt. Major would hop into his van to ensure we were released during this period of time, by ordering if necessary, all First Sergeants, to release their units.

Our new First Sergeant would hide us in our heavy-doored motor pool with smoked glass, and order us not to sound off, in order to evade Sergeant Major.

In the end, after my personal challenge to him (I was only a Specialist at that time) since none of the NCO's would step up, IG fired him out of a cannon.

There were also other things going on on post, that caused our post to be "#1 in USAREUR for mischief". A title earned by command elements, not the soldiers themselves.

Our Sgt. Major had a flask of Whiskey and smelled of alcohol all day.
Our battalion commander was on to "bigger, better things", and clearly, running the unit was behind him.
Our post was 200k from any sizable command element.

Point is, the actions on behalf of the First Sergeant were improper. My bringing it to his attention irregardless of rank, was absolutely proper, so long as I attempted to follow the chain of command first. I did just that.

Had I not challenged this First Sergeant, this type of unscrupulous behavior would have gone on.

For the record, and to accent my point. IG (That's the Inspector General for those who don't know) came out and fired probably 1/8th of the command group. One commander had imprisoned his soldiers in a 8 foot by 10 foot room for over two weeks at one of our field exercise locations, because they could not pass their MOS qual tests.

IG sent out a full-bird, who started lopping heads. I don't think I have ever seen an officer so disgusted with command conduct in my tenure.

Now. Let's parallel this, so you civvies can understand:

It seems while in the service that things are more "cut and dry". Sometimes, nothing could be further from the truth. As I am sure the higher ranking veterans here could attest to, things are intensely political at times. Generals and Colonels wanting to look good, and approaching this with the same practices that say a representative or governor would.

Political posturing, "gun free zones", and other BS factors heavily into their decision making process.

In the civilian world, you could address this personally if you like, by contacting your congressman, writing letter, or other forms of remedial persistence.

In the military, this will get you hung. Not literally, but figuratively.

So where does the pressure come from? Who pressures the changes?

Realistically.

Nobody.

Reaching a General through the chain of command, is all but impossible. Then, even if you did reach said General, you have pissed everyone off along the way.

Your squad leader.
Your platoon sergeant.
Your First Sergeant.
Your Commander.
Your battalion XO potentially.
Your battalion commander.

Somebodies doing extra duty, I promise that.


So the pressure needs to come from somewhere, and the only place it can come from, are the freedom loving citizens of this nation who want their service members to have better lives.

How can you guys concentrate on them though, when it's likely that your local government is all screwed up too, and there are so many problems in the regular political system, never mind the military political system.

We're likely to figure out the DADT debauchery first.

Isn't that sad?

Your servicemembers died in a blaze of terrorist gunfire last year, but never fear...they almost have DADT figured out.

That should solve it.

Right? :rolleyes:
 

Sonora Rebel

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
3,956
Location
Gone
Slowfive's got it on punchcard.


Once upon a time... in a land far, far away... I wandered out of my hooch, squintin' into the sun... nursin' a hangover, wearing a beatup boonie hat, an OD t-shirt... my faded BDU pants 'n unlaced flight boots. I also had my ever present 1911A1 slung on a gunbelt ina WWII era flapped holster... and half a can of the hair of the dog PBR in hand. I ran smack into no less than COMNAVFORV ADM Elmo Zumwalt himself along with every heavy in TF-116 as well as my Skipper. I assumed as much of an attention posture as I could manage w/o dropping my beer can... 'n Zumwalt asks: "What's your job sailor?" I salute (shifting my beer to my left hand) "'Snuffin' gooks Sir!" (My skipper turns dead white... the rest of the entourage go all drop jaw...) The ADM says... "Good... you're the first sonofabitch I've met all day who knows what he's here for. Carry on sailor." "Aye, aye Sir... " Then I hear my skipper... 'That's Petty Officer ****, he's one of my fire pissers." Zumwalt says...: "We need more fire-pissers...." I continued on past some serious stink-eye from the assembled entourage... while holding a salute. "Good morning... gentlemen." Yep... it's all about politics.
 
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slowfiveoh

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
1,415
Location
Richmond, VA
I want to state the following so that those who do not serve, can understand what the period was like wherein I was challenging the First Sergeant, and more specifically, "why" I challenged him. This will allow you to more clearly understand why this is such hassle, and you had better be committed to go all the way:

#1. The multiple periods of retention, wherein the First Sergeant kept us beyond the time we were ordered to go, affected the lives of most of my squad (I was squad leader at the time). One soldier was supposed to meet his wife in Frankfurt, and appropriately scheduled during this downtime to do so. He did not make it due to this First Sergeants actions.

His wife, who speaks no German, took over 6 hours after hopping multiple trains and being partially lost, to simply get to the housing area. Frankfurt was < 3 hours away.

#2. During the period of inspection by IG, the new First Sergeant did all he could to make my life hell. Buffing, polishing, and any other excess duties he could dredge up to give me 0 free time, he assigned to me. I slept maybe 4 hours per night for two weeks straight. Thankfully my schedule of sleep from combat hadn't changed, so I wasn't necessarily uncomfortable with it.

#3. The battalion XO caught wind of my IG complaint, and personally harangued me for over an hour, mostly expressing the awesome power at the behest of his golden leaf, and the insignificance of my dodo-and-shield. Unbeknown to him, I had already had a lecture from the new First Sergeant about how diamonds beat shields.

C'est la vie.


The point is, if you are going to press on with what you know is right, then do not be intimidated to simply do the right thing. I knew my life, for a brief period, was going to be hell.

In the end though, I came out on top decisively, because I was on the side of right.

This isn't always logical to some people. They consider their temporary hardship to be an unnecessary thing when brought on by doing the right thing.

This gives birth to people who, well, simply refuse to do said right thing.

Just sayin. :banghead:
 

slowfiveoh

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
1,415
Location
Richmond, VA
Yep. It gives birth to people who just follow all orders, as opposed to only following lawful orders.

This happens constantly.

All sorts of orders are issued that are de facto unlawful. The rationalization is of course weighed against a scale that balances the likelihood of retribution from command, versus doing the right thing.

The right thing is rarely easy.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Regarding your polished floors, Hooah, slowfiveoh. I know I'm AF, but that was a good military story.

Also, you said that the young lady was huge. Then you said she was a 52D. Do your realize the picture that this brought to mind???
 

slowfiveoh

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
1,415
Location
Richmond, VA
Regarding your polished floors, Hooah, slowfiveoh. I know I'm AF, but that was a good military story.

Also, you said that the young lady was huge. Then you said she was a 52D. Do your realize the picture that this brought to mind???

Thanks for the compliment. I'm hoping that something is gleaned from my experiences.

Also, read my comment about the young lady again...

I specified "huge....things."

Family oriented forum so I wont specify more.

Let's just say that initially ,and behind the BDU blouse....one could not tell. Although 52D might be overzealous....

...maybe.

:D
 
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OldCurlyWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2010
Messages
907
Location
Oklahoma
Thanks for the compliment. I'm hoping that something is gleaned from my experiences.

Also, read my comment about the young lady again...

I specified "huge....things."

Family oriented forum so I wont specify more.

Let's just say that initially ,and behind the BDU blouse....one could not tell. Although 52D might be overzealous....

...maybe.

:D


I just looked up current MOS designations and could not find any series 52 designations. Then I found it. She got upgraded to a 91D

What I do is now listed as 13s(in Artillery)and used to be 82b IMMB's. It is also listed as 21s under Engineering (Construction)
 

slowfiveoh

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
1,415
Location
Richmond, VA
I just looked up current MOS designations and could not find any series 52 designations. Then I found it. She got upgraded to a 91D

What I do is now listed as 13s(in Artillery)and used to be 82b IMMB's. It is also listed as 21s under Engineering (Construction)

My MOS was reclassed as well.

Used to be 31R. ;)
 

rotorhead

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2010
Messages
862
Location
FL
Nah there's a couple good ones out there still. The sad part is that they'll never see a command with any kind of press coverage though. Those slots are reserved for the polished politicians who happen to also wear a uniform.
 

Daylen

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
Generals are men;
Men have facial hair;
Those of O7 and above rank have no facial hair
therefore there are no generals?
 
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