Wendys

rotorhead said:

Actually, in NC they DO need signs- placed in a conspicuous location, usually at entrances or adjacent windows. However, private businesses also have latitude to ask people with guns to leave if they feel concerned about the situation, even if the business normally allows guns there. One such situation would be if a customer freaks out over seeing the gun and causes a scene. Even though it would be the customer who causes the issue, business may ask you to leave to restore the peace. If you refuse, you may then be subject to trespassing charges.

If a business does have a sign up (in NC it doesn't matter what the sign is made of or how it looks, just that it's placed in a conspicuous location) and you choose to ignore it, you open yourself up to the possibility of trespassing charges, as well.

Not all states have the same statutes so it's important to understand what's going on in the state we live in. Some states will vary on this "sign rule". I only point this sign rule out for NC because the OP lives in NC.

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It's only trespassing if you are asked to leave and don't. Other than that it's a misdemeanor carrying charge the FIRST time.

cricketdad said:

It's only trespassing if you are asked to leave and don't. Other than that it's a misdemeanor carrying charge the FIRST time.

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Here in NC, a sign serves as notice... You can be charged with trespassing for violating the sign.

mekender said:

Here in NC, a sign serves as notice... You can be charged with trespassing for violating the sign.

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IANAL, but IMO it would be hard to get that charge to stick if you simply say you didn't see the sign. When I first started OCing, I got very used to looking at every single door in great detail to see if there was a sign before I went in. However, once I realized that very few places have signs against it, I got to where I do more of a scan of the door rather than making sure I see and understand each and every sign. On doors where there aren't many signs, I still see everything and know absolutely that there is no rule against it. However, some doors seem to have something covering up every square inch, and I don't stop to make sure to look at and read every little thing to make sure they haven't thrown in a "No Firearms" somewhere.

I haven't been asked to leave anywhere yet; If I were, I would put down whatever merchandise I had right there on the floor, or refuse to pay for a meal, or whatever would be appropriate at the given venue, and then leave. I'd contact the manager/owner/corporate HQ later as appropriate to try to remedy the situation, and if not, would not patronize in the future.

Anyway, back on topic. Unless the sign was REALLY noticeable, I don't think you'd get convicted. That doesn't mean you'd get out cheap though, considering lawyer, court costs, etc.

Sultan,

At the previous OC meet up at Five Guys in Raleigh, one of the participants produced a box of "no gun - no patronage" business cards. He was giving them out and I suppose like the NC Flyer, he wouldn't mind the shamless duplication and use across NC. It's a piss poor scan, but I think you can read it okay. Easy to duplicate and carry in your wallet for times where and OC is turned away.

Thanks for the scans. If anyone knows who made these, I'd love to get definite confirmation that the creator is ok with duplication just to be sure.

sultan62 said:

Thanks for the scans. If anyone knows who made these, I'd love to get definite confirmation that the creator is ok with duplication just to be sure.

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I am sure he will be at the December OC meet at the same 5 Guys on Creedmore. I also remember hearing someone ask if we could copy them and he said it was okay. Simple business card stock. There is nothing copy righted on the originals I have either, but I understand.

Northerner said:

I am sure he will be at the December OC meet at the same 5 Guys on Creedmore. I also remember hearing someone ask if we could copy them and he said it was okay. Simple business card stock. There is nothing copy righted on the originals I have either, but I understand.

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I just checked Meetup, and I doubt I'll be able to make that meet either :-/.

If there's something in January, I'll probably be able to make that one, but no guarantees yet. My future is somewhat uncertain ATM.

A-ha!

The "No Guns No Dollars" card is posted and available on the meetup site. I'm going to post these links in the NC Gun Rights flier forum too so it's somewhat centralized.

http://files.meetup.com/1562468/No-Guns-No-Dollars (JPG).JPG

http://files.meetup.com/1562468/No-Guns-No-Dollars (PNG).png

Actually, it's just .jpg and .png files of the same side of the card, but the backside as scanned by Northerner can be typed up easily.

rotorhead said:

Actually, in NC they DO need signs- placed in a conspicuous location, usually at entrances or adjacent windows. However, private businesses also have latitude to ask people with guns to leave if they feel concerned about the situation, even if the business normally allows guns there. One such situation would be if a customer freaks out over seeing the gun and causes a scene. Even though it would be the customer who causes the issue, business may ask you to leave to restore the peace. If you refuse, you may then be subject to trespassing charges.

If a business does have a sign up (in NC it doesn't matter what the sign is made of or how it looks, just that it's placed in a conspicuous location) and you choose to ignore it, you open yourself up to the possibility of trespassing charges, as well.

Not all states have the same statutes so it's important to understand what's going on in the state we live in. Some states will vary on this "sign rule". I only point this sign rule out for NC because the OP lives in NC.

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That was my bad.
I live in Va and forgot for a moment that the OP was a little bit further south.

Still I very much hate to see anyone encouraging/promoting the use of such signs.

No worries, just wanted to make sure it was clear, that's all

I'm not a fan of pointing out to store people that they messed up on the sign thing either. For one, some of them take it as a personal challenge and you know how that usually turns out... next time you go to the store there's a brand-spankin' new sign up

I usually only bring it up when absolutely needed.

mekender said:

Here in NC, a sign serves as notice... You can be charged with trespassing for violating the sign.

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Bingo.

Yeah it might not stick if one says that he didn't see it, but then again, it probably will if it goes that far. All depends. All a business has to do is post it in a "conspicuous" location- one that a person would reasonably see. In other words, it can't be obscured with products or decorations or other signs. If it's where a person can reasonably be expected to see it upon coming toward the entrance, the burden falls on the carrier in most cases.

Posting the sign legally satisfies the requirement to post a notice.

Unfortunately, "I didn't see the sign" more than likely won't hold up in court. The store complied with all laws in order to prohibit firearms. You can do that with the manager or employee, but try that with a judge, and I don't think that'll work too well...

Reminds me of when a Cary policeman came to me and a friend when we were skateboarding at some public place (some amphitheater, i forget which one) about 6-7 years ago. We went in through a different entrance, and didn't see the "no skateboarding" sign (it wasn't posted at the entrance we went in). We both got a warning (and got put in the system), even though we didn't know the sign was there.

Grapeshot said:

That was my bad.
I live in Va and forgot for a moment that the OP was a little bit further south.

Still I very much hate to see anyone encouraging/promoting the use of such signs.

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We like NC's sign law. It is so vague it is hard to enforce. The only change needed is to do away with it.

rotorhead said:

...private businesses also have latitude to ask people with guns to leave if they feel concerned about the situation, even if the business normally allows guns there. One such situation would be if a customer freaks out over seeing the gun and causes a scene.

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Seems to me it's the customer disturbing the peace who needs to leave, not the one quietly & peacefully going about her day.

MKEgal said:

Seems to me it's the customer disturbing the peace who needs to leave, not the one quietly & peacefully going about her day.

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Much agreed. I don't understand the reasoning either. I mean, look at it this way: Basically the manager in a situation like this is trying to placate the customer who is acting like a moron by asking the other customer to leave or take the gun outside under the premise that the manager is worried about the concerns of the one expressing the complaint.

I stress that the gun owner is a customer just as much as the whiner is. Why do they always seek to comfort the whiner at the expense of the gun owner and not the other way around? Either way, both are customers and to the extent of store policy, both have every right to be there.

My dream conversation would go something like this:

Whiner: "Eeek! He's got a gun! Mr manager do something!"

Manager: "Well Mrs whiner, he's obviously not doing anything illegal, he's just shopping like you are"

Whiner: "but....he's got a gun! Do something or I'll never come here again!"

Manager: "Sorry Mrs Whiner, but he has every right to be here as you do. If you choose not to shop here anymore, well I guess that's your decision. I'm not going to ask him to leave unless he does anything wrong, as I would treat any customer"

Whiner: "but.....but....but...."

Manager: "Is there anything else I can do for you today?"

Whiner: "but.....he' got a gun, I'm calling 911!"

Manager: "There's no need ma'am, there's no crime being committed here at all"

Whiner: "I want to talk with your supervisor!"

Manager: "At this point, I'm going to have to ask you to leave. You're causing a scene where it's not warranted and disrupting other shoppers. Please exit the store or I will call the police. Mr Gun-dude, I'm sorry for the inconvenience..."

Whiner: "But.....but...."

Manager: "I'm sorry ma'am, please leave."


Yet, it never seems to work out like that does it? Odd how spineless managers always seem to want to ask the gun owner to leave, thinking somehow he saved a customer, never realizing that the gun carrier is a customer too. In their minds, I reckon it's worth the sacrifice.

Disclaimer: I only use certain indications of stereotypical characters due to a very unimaginative mind. Feel free to insert your versions of the basic characters portrayed in the previous scenario replacing feminine and masculine assignments at your leisure to better illustrate the story and to satisfy any politically incorrect usage that may offend the easily offended

rotorhead said:

Much agreed. I don't understand the reasoning either. I mean, look at it this way: Basically the manager in a situation like this is trying to placate the customer who is acting like a moron by asking the other customer to leave or take the gun outside under the premise that the manager is worried about the concerns of the one expressing the complaint.

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My take on it is that some the stores/managers are attempting to keep both customers.

If they can placate the whinner by convincing you to put the gun in your vehicle and return, they have a win-win situation.

OTOH if you are not "cooperative," they have a net lost of only one customer (you) which was their original worst case scenario.

When you consider that some personal bias against guns exists with people in management positions, the odds are occasionally stacked against us.

Education remains the key that has proven the most successful.

rotorhead said:

SNIP
My dream conversation would go something like this:

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It's not likely, but it's entirely possible that this has happened without the OCer ever even knowing about it.

sultan62 said:

It's not likely, but it's entirely possible that this has happened without the OCer ever even knowing about it.

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That is very possible, indeed. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I just have the overall impression based on numerous reports here, on other sites, from friends, and from personal experience that it's not usually the case.

My fictitious conversation in my last post may have happened in various forms, but it's simply not the norm. Usually, it's on the carrier to make concessions, not the other way around. There's many things I see in every day life in public that I either don't agree with or feel my kids shouldn't see, yet my first reaction is never to oblige anyone else to compromise their personal safety in anyway- which is exactly what happens when I'm asked to disarm to calm the unfounded fears of others.

Y'all get the idea though. Don't make too much of my scenario or pick it apart too bad lol. It was just inserted to illustrate a point, that's all

NavyLT said:

EXCEPT in the case that our OP presented. No customers ever complained about the gun. Only very easily replaced employees.

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Good point.

Grapeshot said:

My take on it is that some the stores/managers are attempting to keep both customers.

If they can placate the whinner by convincing you to put the gun in your vehicle and return, they have a win-win situation.

OTOH if you are not "cooperative," they have a net lost of only one customer (you) which was their original worst case scenario.

When you consider that some personal bias against guns exists with people in management positions, the odds are occasionally stacked against us.

Education remains the key that has proven the most successful.

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That's also very possible. Yet, in the end, who is almost always asked to compromise in these situations? I'm sure the last thing the manager wants to do is have a big scene in his business. In fact, I'm very conscious of that and pretty sensitive to their situations. When these things happen to me, I've never done anything but ask them one more time something like "are you asking me to leave or disarm to continue shopping?". If the answer is in the positive (in whatever words) I always thank them and leave the place. That's all there is to it for me- no arguments, no bad scene at all. No further words are needed.

In the big picture, one lost customer is not the most dramatic thing a business will have to suffer through. Any arguments along the lines of "well, you're losing me as a customer due to your policies" are pretty much futile, and in many cases sound like nothing more than crying about it. I won't lower myself in that way. All I ask is that they state their position clearly so there's no mistaking it either way, no biggie.

So yes, it may be that a manager (or whatever employee) is trying to keep all parties as customers, but again, who is usually the one asked to make the concessions in your experiences?

It's just the way it is. Education may help in some cases, but I feel it won't do much on a national level to cause a wave of change. We just have to roll with it and make our financial decisions based on the situation at hand.

I'm not out there to make any political or social changes, I'm just carrying for protection if the need ever arises. In the end, that's what matters most to me.