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Thread: Travelling by vehicle while OCing...

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    Travelling by vehicle while OCing...

    It looks like I might actually have a pistol when I'm home, so I can OC. I realized, however, that I never did understand how to comply with the 'no loaded firearms in a vehicle', and I never ended up in a car or truck during my limited excursions before. Always too worried I'd end up unknowingly in a school zone or something to carry much. My question for those of you on here who OC without a CFP is this: what do you do to comply with the law? I managed to confuse myself while reading into it and I'm not sure if just removing the magazine is enough or if I need to put it in a case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hightecrebel View Post
    It looks like I might actually have a pistol when I'm home, so I can OC. I realized, however, that I never did understand how to comply with the 'no loaded firearms in a vehicle', and I never ended up in a car or truck during my limited excursions before. Always too worried I'd end up unknowingly in a school zone or something to carry much. My question for those of you on here who OC without a CFP is this: what do you do to comply with the law? I managed to confuse myself while reading into it and I'm not sure if just removing the magazine is enough or if I need to put it in a case.
    Putting it in a case would actually violate the law as it would be concealed. It has to be visible and unloaded (no loaded mag in the gun, no round in the chamber). You can have a loaded mag next to the gun, but not inserted into it. I used to drop mag, slide lock the gun and throw it on the passenger seat. Alternatively, I would carry unchambered and when I got in the car, just drop the mag, when I got out of the car, pop the mag back in, but left it in my serpa holster on my belt. This gets tricky though because if the firearm becomes fully concealed by your seatbelt buckle or anything, then you could be nabbed for concealing. If you want to be on the safe side, slide lock and throw it on the passenger seat.

    I've been working with my legislator on getting this stupid law changed because it can cause quite a scene. Getting out of your car at a gas station, grabbing an unloaded weapon and popping in a mag and racking the slide outside your car before going inside in order to comply with this law makes for a potentially dangerous situation.
    Last edited by boyscout399; 11-06-2010 at 07:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    Putting it in a case would actually violate the law as it would be concealed. It has to be visible and unloaded (no loaded mag in the gun, no round in the chamber). You can have a loaded mag next to the gun, but not inserted into it. I used to drop mag, slide lock the gun and throw it on the passenger seat. Alternatively, I would carry unchambered and when I got in the car, just drop the mag, when I got out of the car, pop the mag back in, but left it in my serpa holster on my belt. This gets tricky though because if the firearm becomes fully concealed by your seatbelt buckle or anything, then you could be nabbed for concealing. If you want to be on the safe side, slide lock and throw it on the passenger seat.

    I've been working with my legislator on getting this stupid law changed because it can cause quite a scene. Getting out of your car at a gas station, grabbing an unloaded weapon and popping in a mag and racking the slide outside your car before going inside in order to comply with this law makes for a potentially dangerous situation.
    I was thinking as in put it in a locked case for transporting it, but that makes much more sense. Just need to find a somewhere to toss it since I'll be the one in the passenger seat. maybe bring my afghani shoulder harness with me and wear it over my jacket...

    And I'll definately be contacting the wonderful local legislators from my home town to voice my opinion on the law. now I just need to do some reading up on it so I don't sound like a moron.
    Last edited by hightecrebel; 11-06-2010 at 01:50 PM. Reason: horrible, horrible typos

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    Quote Originally Posted by hightecrebel View Post
    I was thinking as in put it in a locked case for transporting it, but that makes much more sense. Just need to find a somewhere to toss it since I'll be the one in the passenger seat. maybe bring my afghani shoulder harness with me and wear it over my jacket...

    And I'll definately be contacting the wonderful local legislators from my home town to voice my opinion on the law. now I just need to do some reading up on it so I don't sound like a moron.
    Title 12 Sec 11212 is the law pertaining to firearms in a vehicle. Title 25 Sec 2001-A is the law pertaining to concealing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    Putting it in a case would actually violate the law as it would be concealed... I used to drop mag, slide lock the gun and throw it on the passenger seat... If you want to be on the safe side, slide lock and throw it on the passenger seat... Getting out of your car at a gas station, grabbing an unloaded weapon and popping in a mag and racking the slide outside your car before going inside in order to comply with this law makes for a potentially dangerous situation.
    I have a hard time believing that a handgun can't be carried in a case or range bag without violating the law. Driving around with an uncased firearm on the seat to have it roll around the passenger compartment or bounce off the dash and on the floorboard every time you hit the brakes is not a good idea.

    With all the dopers robbing convenience stores and pharmacies lately, if I see someone get out of a car with a gun in hand then load and make ready in the middle of the parking lot, I'm probably going to switch to orange prepared for red/black. If I were watching this scenario on the security cameras at a business chances are that it wouldn't be a good situation at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff_JMB View Post
    I have a hard time believing that a handgun can't be carried in a case or range bag without violating the law. Driving around with an uncased firearm on the seat to have it roll around the passenger compartment or bounce off the dash and on the floorboard every time you hit the brakes is not a good idea.

    With all the dopers robbing convenience stores and pharmacies lately, if I see someone get out of a car with a gun in hand then load and make ready in the middle of the parking lot, I'm probably going to switch to orange prepared for red/black. If I were watching this scenario on the security cameras at a business chances are that it wouldn't be a good situation at all.
    That's why we're working on changing the law. It's really stupid. But Title 25 Sec 2001-A says any firearm concealed about the person's person is criminal. There's an exception for someone engaged in hunting activities. There's an exception for CCW permit holders. But there's NOT an exception for someone headed to the range, or someone carrying for self defense. If the firearm is encased but inaccessible to the passenger compartment, then it is not "about the person's person" and you'd be in the clear, but you'd have to break the law at some point in order to put it in the case in the trunk...
    Last edited by boyscout399; 11-07-2010 at 01:22 PM.

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    Firearms may be transported in a motor vehicle without a concealed firearms permit provided they are (1) unloaded and in plain view, or (2) are unloaded and placed in a remote secure area (such as a locked trunk) away from the control of the occupants of the motor vehicle.
    SOURCE
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine CWP Training View Post
    Unfortunately that's not what the statute says, this is essentially an opinion of the IFW dept. How does one legally get the firearm into the container without at some point breaking the law regarding having a concealed weapon about your person? I suppose tossing the weapon from 10 feet away into the container in your trunk would conceal it without it at any time being concealed about your person...

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    Same has been advised from MSP and I all have advised all clients of the same for over 2 decades.

    Never heard and argument to the contrary from any LEO, even those that critique our courses.
    Paul J. Mattson
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    Maine CWP Training
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    www.mainecwptraining.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine CWP Training View Post
    Same has been advised from MSP and I all have advised all clients of the same for over 2 decades.

    Never heard and argument to the contrary from any LEO, even those that critique our courses.
    Yes, it is legal to have the firearm in a locked case inaccessible from the driver. My question is: How do you get it there without breaking Title 25 Sec 2001-A? There is no exception to THAT law to put the firearm in your car... You DO violate that law for a short period of time while the firearm is encased, and still about your person... I'm not saying that a cop wouldn't let you go for it when seeing the circumstances, but you DO violate that statute at some point, there is no way to avoid it... And an overzealous prosecutor could easily make that argument and likely convince a jury that the statute WAS violated.
    Last edited by boyscout399; 11-08-2010 at 06:53 PM.

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    B. Wear under the person's clothes or conceal about the person's person a firearm, slungshot, knuckles, bowie knife, dirk, stiletto or other dangerous or deadly weapon usually employed in the attack on or defense of a person.
    This portion?
    Paul J. Mattson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine CWP Training View Post
    This portion?
    yes, the firearm would be concealed about your person when it's in the case and within reach...

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    (2) are unloaded and placed in a remote secure area (such as a locked trunk) away from the control of the occupants of the motor vehicle.
    If a locked trunk isn't available a gun vault / cable lock / trigger lock satisfies all LEOs I've spoke with if you don't want to keep it open...

    Wear under the person's clothes or conceal about the person's person a firearm
    is called an "oh **** moment" when stopping someone for an infraction and the firearm is subsequently discovered.
    Paul J. Mattson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine CWP Training View Post
    If a locked trunk isn't available a gun vault / cable lock / trigger lock satisfies all LEOs I've spoke with if you don't want to keep it open...

    is called an "oh **** moment" when stopping someone for an infraction and the firearm is subsequently discovered.
    It doesn't matter if it "satisfies all LEO's you've spoken with."

    It violates State law. Just because LEO's that you've spoken to have chosen to not enforce that law doesn't mean that it doesn't have the potential to get you into trouble some day. Even locked in your trunk you have to violate State law at some point in the process of putting it into your trunk.

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    or (2) are unloaded and placed in a remote secure area (such as a locked trunk) away from the control of the occupants of the motor vehicle.
    I'll hang my hat on this and always have~
    Paul J. Mattson
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    Harrison, ME 04040

    www.mainecwptraining.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine CWP Training View Post
    I'll hang my hat on this and always have~
    This was not my question. You are ignoring my question. I realize that it's legal to have the gun separated from you. My question is How do you get it there without breaking the statute? I realize it's legal once it's there, but it's impossible to get it to that condition without breaking the law to get it there.

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    Firearm Laws and Regulations, Summary

    Those are the State of Maine's words from their web site not mine. Argue with them and let me know what their response is.
    Paul J. Mattson
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    www.mainecwptraining.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine CWP Training View Post
    Firearm Laws and Regulations, Summary

    Those are the State of Maine's words from their web site not mine. Argue with them and let me know what their response is.
    I can read. Those regs say NOTHING about how you can get the firearm from the legal open carry into the legal concealed in trunk inaccessible to the passengers without passing through a period of illegality in which you have a concealed firearm that is accessible to you.

    You are again not addressing the issue that I'm raising... I fully understand that it is legal to have it in a locked container in the trunk... What is unclear is how do you get it locked in the trunk without breaking the law to get it there?

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    They have this same conundrum in Wisconsin right now...

    In Wisconsin there is a law that says you cannot have a firearm concealed within reach.

    There is also a law that says a firearm must be in a locked container out of reach of the occupants when transported in a vehicle.

    It is impossible to get the firearm from the legal unconcealed position to the legal concealed and out of reach position without temporarily passing through the illegal concealed and within reach position...

    You must break the law to follow the law.

    Here's a video illustrating the conundrum This same conundrum exists in Maine State Law unless you carry the firearm openly visible in the vehicle.
    Last edited by boyscout399; 11-10-2010 at 05:21 PM.

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    Legal solution: Possess a CFP (unacceptable from an ideological standpoint because it is basically a tax on a natural right)

    Common-sense solution (for an LEO): don't detain/arrest/prosecute an individual for moving a gun from holster to containment simply because they have technically violated a law while attempting to comply with two or more other laws.

    Common-sense solution for the individual: Move the gun from holster to container where you won't be observed. Normally not a problem, but there is always the possibility for unexpected surreptitious observation.

    Real-world implications: Somewhere, there is an LEO who will arrest you for this. Its a real, legitimate, legal problem. Every cop I know understands that you are technically breaking the law when (without a Maine or reciprocal out of state CWP) you put a gun into a container, and every cop I know wouldn't think about actually pursuing this. It doesn't mean there isn't someone in their department who wouldn't run with it for whatever reason.

    My thinking (personal opinion) is that if someone actually tried to arrest you and press charges for this, they would be laughed out of the courtroom, and if they weren't, you could probably push it at least as far as the state supreme court and secure some form of minor victory for carry rights on state constitutional grounds.

    Of course in the meantime you would be out on bail conditions, stripped of your 2A rights, and suffer all the other consequences of trying to live a normal life with criminal charges pending. No one wants to be that guy because, hey, it ******* sucks.
    v/r
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    Quote Originally Posted by ep0k View Post
    Legal solution: Possess a CFP (unacceptable from an ideological standpoint because it is basically a tax on a natural right)

    Common-sense solution (for an LEO): don't detain/arrest/prosecute an individual for moving a gun from holster to containment simply because they have technically violated a law while attempting to comply with two or more other laws.

    Common-sense solution for the individual: Move the gun from holster to container where you won't be observed. Normally not a problem, but there is always the possibility for unexpected surreptitious observation.

    Real-world implications: Somewhere, there is an LEO who will arrest you for this. Its a real, legitimate, legal problem. Every cop I know understands that you are technically breaking the law when (without a Maine or reciprocal out of state CWP) you put a gun into a container, and every cop I know wouldn't think about actually pursuing this. It doesn't mean there isn't someone in their department who wouldn't run with it for whatever reason.

    My thinking (personal opinion) is that if someone actually tried to arrest you and press charges for this, they would be laughed out of the courtroom, and if they weren't, you could probably push it at least as far as the state supreme court and secure some form of minor victory for carry rights on state constitutional grounds.

    Of course in the meantime you would be out on bail conditions, stripped of your 2A rights, and suffer all the other consequences of trying to live a normal life with criminal charges pending. No one wants to be that guy because, hey, it ******* sucks.
    You forgot another simple solution available to us in Maine: Don't Conceal the Firearm... Maine allows for openly visible firearms in the vehicle without a problem. This removes the conundrum.

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    Alright, I've pretty much decided I'll be bringing my shoulder holster with me in three days after I check my M9 into storage. Works perfectly since I'll be carrying a 92FS.

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    That is exactly why I got my CWP. I can transport my firearms any way I want and am not breaking any laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claytron View Post
    im not sure i really see the predicament here, can someone recite the exact portion of the law they are referring to and exactly how they feel its being broken by placing a firearm into a locked car trunk in order to transport it?

    Once you close the trunk door i would imagine that would be considered innaccessible and out of reach seeing as how you would need to unlock it in order to retrieve it, as opposed to just lifting your shirt or pant leg to retrieve a pistol concealed there.

    Is the locked trunk area of a car you are driving considered your "person's person"?
    Once it's locked in the trunk you're legal. How do you get it into the trunk though? If you place the gun in the locked container, then place the container in the trunk, you've broken the law from the time you concealed the gun until the time you remove yourself from access. There is no possible way to get it locked in the trunk without breaking the law to get it there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claytron View Post
    So you are saying that putting your firearm inside a locked container, similar to the box you would get when buying the gun, and carrying it to the car is considered concealing it? If so how are we able to buy a gun and walk to our car from the store to transport it?

    At which point are you considering a person to "have access" and likewise what dictates "not having access"?

    Also, are you talking about putting it into a locked container while the gun is loaded or unloaded?
    The way the Title 25 Sec 2001-A is written, there is no exception for a firearm being transported from a dealer, so yes, walking from the store to our car with an encased firearm is violating Title 25 Sec 2001-A if you don't have a CCW permit recognized in Maine. I'm not saying that there is any LEO in Maine that would be dumb enough to sit outside of Cabelas and arrest anyone coming out with a gun case for carrying a concealed weapon, I'm only saying that it does in fact break the letter of the law.

    As far as loaded or unloaded is concerned, it doesn't matter. Loaded in a vehicle would be unlawful under Title 12 Sec 11212, but Title 25 Sec 2001-A has no distinction between loaded and unloaded and that's the statute that's violated every time someone carries a cased gun to their car.

    Case law would dictate where the border of "having access" and "not having access" would fall. I am not fluent in where case law has determined this line to be. Title 25 Sec 2001-A doesn't mention "having access" it mentions "about the person's person" and I believe that a case in your hand would definitely constitute "about the person's person"

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