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Thread: “Total People Killed by Concealed Handgun Permit Holders with red hair.”

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    Regular Member oldbanger's Avatar
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    “Total People Killed by Concealed Handgun Permit Holders with red hair.”

    ...concealed handgun permit holders would be routinely killing law enforcement personnel and perpetrating, rather than preventing, mass murders and other gun homicides...

    http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm

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    Yep. LOL Thank GoODness this is OpenCarry.org and not take what we can get dot.org as some would have it, like the party of the Good Ol' Pols - GOP.

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Cpl

    Remember law abiding CPL holders can't prevent mass murders since the usually happen in unarmed victim zones.
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
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    Notice that they separate LEO's from the rest of us mere plebes (as if they AREN'T a private citizen), and fail to mention how many of the 'private citizens' killed, were done in by 'only ones' (who just happened to also have a CPL/CCW/CWP/whatever) in the line of duty.

    Or don't those count?
    Last edited by Phssthpok; 11-06-2010 at 02:59 PM.

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Can we please get a total number of CHP holders, a total number of non-CHP holders, and a matching count of each crime listed as committed by non-CHP holders for an accurate comparison?

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Those figures are extraordinary. They tally to less than 500 people killed, (since when, just this year?) by CHL holders. Anyone care to guess how many non CHL holders were bludgeoned to death this month by convicted felons?

    I didn't think so.
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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I have just two names for the VPC:

    Barbara Graham
    http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=8073

    James Jay Lee
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/01...ters-building/


    A frothing anti-gunner who shot an innocent man in a drive-by revenge shooting, and a nutcase global-warming alarmist who worshiped Al Gore and held several people hostage at gunpoint at the Discovery Channel's HQ in MD in September 2010 (before he thankfully dispatched himself but didn't harm any innocents)...


    Bite me, Josh Sugarmann, you liberty-hating, duplicitous, FFL-holding, scumbag puppet of John Soros.
    Last edited by Dreamer; 11-07-2010 at 11:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    Those figures are extraordinary. They tally to less than 500 people killed, (since when, just this year?) by CHL holders. Anyone care to guess how many non CHL holders were bludgeoned to death this month by convicted felons?

    I didn't think so.
    The count is 213. If a shooter killed some civilians, a police officer, and himself, he'd be reported in every category. So, the only category that matters for the total tally is the total number of persons killed, 213.

    In three years, 213. That number is remarkably low. To put it in perspective, compare it to how many folks commit murder with a gun who don't have a permit and how many people commit murder with lawfully owned knives. Also, consider the rate among which license holders are committing gun crimes compared to the non-license holders. After all, the point they are trying to make is that license holders are not law-abiding citizens, when they overwhelmingly are.

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The count is 213. If a shooter killed some civilians, a police officer, and himself, he'd be reported in every category. So, the only category that matters for the total tally is the total number of persons killed, 213.

    In three years, 213. That number is remarkably low. To put it in perspective, compare it to how many folks commit murder with a gun who don't have a permit and how many people commit murder with lawfully owned knives. Also, consider the rate among which license holders are committing gun crimes compared to the non-license holders. After all, the point they are trying to make is that license holders are not law-abiding citizens, when they overwhelmingly are.
    I gave them the benefit of exageration. Indeed that number is incredibly low. It's still unfortunate, and I wonder how many of those 213 people were innocent of any aggression. Anyway I'd like to compare that to the violent crimes thwarted by CHL holders, and crimes commited by non-CHL holders. I'm sure if that comparison was done CHL holder crimes would not even register. It is somewhat gratifying that these moonbats are howling by themselves in a soundproof room.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    I gave them the benefit of exageration. Indeed that number is incredibly low. It's still unfortunate, and I wonder how many of those 213 people were innocent of any aggression. Anyway I'd like to compare that to the violent crimes thwarted by CHL holders, and crimes commited by non-CHL holders. I'm sure if that comparison was done CHL holder crimes would not even register. It is somewhat gratifying that these moonbats are howling by themselves in a soundproof room.
    It would be hard to prove, but I would axiomatically believe that 213 violent crimes have been avoided by lawfully owned and carried firearms.

    Another thread contains a video cites a figure of 11,000 handgun deaths each year. If 71 of them are at the hands of licensed gun owners, clearly licensed gun owners are not the problem!

    Here is the link to the thread: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...t-5-Gun-Rights . The video is one of the most concise and cogent expositions on the RKBA and how it represents the deposit of trust and power in We the People.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    I wonder how many of those 213 people were innocent of any aggression...
    Exactly.

    I'm willing to bet a great sum that the majority of that 213 are attempted rapists, robbers, and murderers.

    Basically, BG's who got what they had coming...

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Ppppppppppppffffffffffffttttttttttt!!!

    Sorry, that's the sound I make when milk comes out of my nose.

    I discovered that each number is "clickable."

    I did a little (very minor) research. "Mass shootings committed by CHP holders" means at least three not counting suicides. That reduces the number of CHP holders who allegedly committed murder to 189 at most.

    Also, while not explicitly stated, the following statement leads me to believe that suicides are counted, so we can reduce the 'murder' count by another 24 as listed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Violence Policy Center
    The following vignettes describe the circumstances for all killings by individuals with permits to
    carry concealed handguns (private citizen, law enforcement, mass shootings, murder-suicide).
    The descriptions include the current, known status of any charges filed against the permit holder
    as well as noting instances where the perpetrator committed suicide.
    That means we are down to 165 murders. Again, this is the maximum number of murders possible from the information easily available. Of course, if we went into detail on the mass murderers, I am confident that we would see at least one case in which there were in fact more than three people killed by a single individual, which would continue to reduce the number. To sum up, there were no more than 165 CHP holders who committed murder. How many murders have been committed since May 2007?

    41,388.

    16,929 in 2007. 16,272 in 2008. 15,241 in 2009. If we multiply 2007's offenses by 7/12 (accounting for June through December assuming an even distribution of murder throughout the year) we get 9,875.

    So, (16,929*7/12)+16,272+15,241=41,388

    By the way, that doesn't even count the 10+ months of 2010.

    But to be fair, we don't know how many were multiple murders. (Though we do know that these do not include suicides or justifiable homicides). Therefore, we'll take the full number provided by VPC, which is 213, if you'll recall. Hmm...213 vs 41,388. That seems like a fairly large disparity to me, but hey, we've done the math so far. Let's continue. Let's figure out what percentage of murders were committed by CHP holders.

    213/41388=0.0051464....you get the idea. Just over one half of one percent of all murders were committed by CHP holders. We can reasonably assume that if 2010 data were included, the number would be well under 0.5%.

    But wait!

    Then we click on the actual cases-I only looked at the top five in detail. One was clearly an (albeit, stupid) accident. One was still pending, in which the suspect claims self defense against her LE husband, with some questionable circumstances. The other three appear to be clear cut cases of murder. One was the murder of a LEO at a routine traffic stop, one was a multiple murder of ten people along with the suicide of the shooter, and one was an argument over domestic issues in a parking lot with a reckless homicide conviction.

    But then I noticed a pattern, and instead of reading the next several, I just glanced.

    What, to my surprise, did I see? "Pending...Pending...Pending..." I don't know how many of these are legitimate and not self defense, accidents, suicides, etc. Even assuming every single one was a true murder with no justification/mitigating circumstances, you've seen the numbers above.

    Remember everyone..."There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."
    Last edited by sultan62; 11-09-2010 at 04:44 PM.
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    Shoot, in 1997 there were 246 construction worker deaths caused by falls from roofs (122), ladders (63), and scaffolding (61)...........

    LET'S BAN LADDERS!!!!!

    http://www.elcosh.org/en/document/48...252C-1997.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by calynn View Post
    Shoot, in 1997 there were 246 construction worker deaths caused by falls from roofs (122), ladders (63), and scaffolding (61)...........

    LET'S BAN LADDERS!!!!!

    http://www.elcosh.org/en/document/48...252C-1997.html
    None of those people had a permit to carry a concealed ladder.

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    Regular Member Coded-Dude's Avatar
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    If guns cause crime.....mine must be defective.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sultan62 View Post
    That reduces the number of CHP holders who allegedly committed murder to 189 at most.
    Depending on the site, all homicides can be listed as "murder" or "alleged murder" until declared otherwise by PD Homicide.

    Or not. Sometimes they just remain out there on someone (else's) books as a "murder," forever, even when it was declared justifiable homicide long ago. I know for a fact this is the way England reports their crime statistics (discovered while researching their stats last month).

    I find this table from the FBI rather interesting, as it clearly states "261 Justifiable Homicides occured by private citizens in 2009."

    Meanwhile, this table clearly states "13,636 homicides occurred in 2009."

    So, with justifiable homicides by private citizen running less than 2% (1.91%, specifically) of all homicides (most of which are not justifiable, we're definately NOT the problem.

    This does underscore a key focus of this and similar websites: Make dang sure you're on the right side of the law before you pull that trigger! You don't want to wind up in the pool with the other 98%...
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    I'm still impressed by the anti-gunner's zeal for pulling the roof down on their own heads. They themselves have thoroughly convinced me that anti-gunners are quite probably the stupidest human beings on the face of the earth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    I'm still impressed by the anti-gunner's zeal for pulling the roof down on their own heads. They themselves have thoroughly convinced me that anti-gunners are quite probably the stupidest human beings on the face of the earth.
    Oh, come on, ixtow - tell us how you really feel! Lol.

    There was a time, long ago, when I believed much as they do. I'd already learned how to shoot, but had also been exposed to the largely left-wing liberally academic notions that getting rid of guns would somehow solve violent crime. Then, in 1983, I had the good fortune of rooming with three other "good-old-boys" from Virginia. I was no stranger to firearms, and all three had firearms, both handguns for self-defense, as well as and rifles and shotguns for hunting. A few hunting bows, too. I ate many a fine meal from game they'd bagged. I recall "deer stew" being a staple, there.

    Although I was no stranger to firearms, some of my roommates' notions involving the use of force against force were foreign to me! I mean, surely, if we're willing to be peaceful towards an aggressor, the aggressor would choose not to be aggressive towards us, right?

    Right?

    Lol, these days I'm much older, wiser, and far less brain-washed by well-intentioned, but overly-idealistic and ignorant academedians (you know, like the ones in Boulder, Colorado...). These days I no longer carry such foolish notions in my head. Instead, I see people for who they are, realizing most are good, but that some people in this world are bad and must be kept at bay, as well as others who are worse and must be stopped before they inflict mayhem and death upon innocent people.

    I'm wise enough to realize that disarming the general public only serves to disarm law-abiding people, leaving the law-breaking criminals well-armed. Academedians in Boulder, please take note from someone who has lived his life in the real world.

    Thanks Jacob, Dan, and Eric.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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