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Who has handcuffs?

tombrewster421

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May 25, 2010
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1,326
Location
Roy, WA
Goose one of many issues, another would be, having to holster your weapon to cuff someone and in the process the opportunity to have them taken and you end up being cuffed, gun taken and either you or both you and your family at risk.

One needs to acknowledge with so many ex-cons on the streets, while incarcerated practiced on moves if being held at gun point and they have years to practice, and when it is all said and done, don't we all want ourselves and families to be home safe with our loved ones?

I know there are those out there with the concept, nope it would not happen to me, I can cuff anyone, I am the biggest baddest dude out there until you meet that one who is bigger and badder and quicker.

IF I were to use my cuffs, I would not be alone I would not reholster my weapon because it would most likely be the middle of the night and wouldn't be wearing a holster. I would leave my gun next to my wife, who would have my shotgun trained on the intruder. That is of course, providing that they didn't already run away or get shot.
 

BigDave

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IF I were to use my cuffs, I would not be alone I would not reholster my weapon because it would most likely be the middle of the night and wouldn't be wearing a holster. I would leave my gun next to my wife, who would have my shotgun trained on the intruder. That is of course, providing that they didn't already run away or get shot.

Rarely do these encounters happen the way may see them happen, in your scenario and if they had a knife, you were on top being cut or stabbed and the wife with a shotgun, does she shoot through you to get to him?

We all make our own choices and either we reek the benefit or pay the consequences, handcuffing would or should be the last choice when it comes to a citizen acting in self defense.
 

xxx.jakk.xxx

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Feb 16, 2010
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Rarely do these encounters happen the way may see them happen, in your scenario and if they had a knife, you were on top being cut or stabbed and the wife with a shotgun, does she shoot through you to get to him?

We all make our own choices and either we reek the benefit or pay the consequences, handcuffing would or should be the last choice when it comes to a citizen acting in self defense.

There's another downside to trying to detain someone on the ground with a shotgun on them. If they do decide to fight back while on the ground, the shotgunner may feel that you're in danger and pull the trigger. I don't think that you can justify shooting a man with a shotgun from a few feet away while they're laying on the ground. It would probably be seen more as an execution.

I wish that there were ways to simply detain a home intruder, but I don't think that we have those options currently and must resort to deadly force or no force.
 

daddy4count

Regular Member
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
513
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
I have them, am trained in how to use them (two methods, in fact...)

But I don't carry them any more. I switched to nylon zip ties after a few years... they are lighter and easier to apply one handed if you need to keep a gun on someone.

I decided a long time ago that pointing a gun at somebody is more effective than cuffing their wrists if I need them to stick around... and the truth is that if I have to pull my gun I expect them to run for their life or expect me to take it from them.

I don't see a point to keeping them around for arrest...

If my gun is drawn it is with intent to shoot. If the BG manages to run away first, all the better for him.
 

Aaron1124

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Jul 5, 2009
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Kent, Washington, USA
If you are not LEO and you handcuff somebody in WA, prepare to enjoy both a criminal and civil lawsuit. Start with an attempted kidnapping charge and then go from there.

The Jason Scott case in Bellevue in 1991 is a good precent. I believe the criminal penalty was a year in jail, and the civil damages totaled $3m or so.

I am not LEO and I have handcuffed a good 50 people, and have never faced a criminal or civil charge. I don't see why I would, under Washington law.

RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force — When lawful.

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;
 
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BigDave

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Yakima, Washington, USA
I am not LEO and I have handcuffed a good 50 people, and have never faced a criminal or civil charge. I don't see why I would, under Washington law.

A little more info please, in what position and circumstances do you claim to have handcuffed 50 people?

The reason I asked is that depending upon the surrounding circumstances will greatly impact a position as to handcuffing someone in your home or who has just attacked you or similar situations.

If you are talking about store security and detaining someone for shop lifting, well you can see there is a huge difference as to the crime and having backup.
 

Aaron1124

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Kent, Washington, USA
A little more info please, in what position and circumstances do you claim to have handcuffed 50 people?

The reason I asked is that depending upon the surrounding circumstances will greatly impact a position as to handcuffing someone in your home or who has just attacked you or similar situations.

If you are talking about store security and detaining someone for shop lifting, well you can see there is a huge difference as to the crime and having backup.

Yes - store security/loss prevention. Although I've apprehended and detained individuals for other crimes aside from theft. I've apprehended drunk and belligerent individuals threatening violence (and even committing violence) on the property, toward customers and employees.
 

END_THE_FED

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Mar 19, 2010
Messages
925
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
I am not LEO and I have handcuffed a good 50 people, and have never faced a criminal or civil charge. I don't see why I would, under Washington law.

RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force — When lawful.

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;



Don't forget you also have
RCW 9A.16.080
 

sudden valley gunner

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Dec 13, 2008
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Location
Whatcom County
Drives me nuts when people insist we are not the law, according to the constitution we are the law. Police departments didn't come till many years later.

But of course many suffer from copafilia. :p
 

Sonora Rebel

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Aug 6, 2008
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Gone
I put people who carry cuffs in the same catagory as those who carry CCW badges. Wannabe's.
 

amlevin

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Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
Drives me nuts when people insist we are not the law, according to the constitution we are the law. Police departments didn't come till many years later.

But of course many suffer from copafilia. :p

But moving into the 21st Century, we have delegated those "powers" to a combination of elected or appointed officials (Sheriff's and Police Chief's). The laws are still made by the "people" through their elected representatives but the enforcement is now delegated.

Your disdain for police is well noted but I'd hate to see how our society would function today without their presence.
 

tombrewster421

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Messages
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Location
Roy, WA
A little more info please, in what position and circumstances do you claim to have handcuffed 50 people?

The reason I asked is that depending upon the surrounding circumstances will greatly impact a position as to handcuffing someone in your home or who has just attacked you or similar situations.

If you are talking about store security and detaining someone for shop lifting, well you can see there is a huge difference as to the crime and having backup.

I'm pretty sure that paragraphs 3 and 4 from Aaron's post would more than cover me in my home. Anyone entering my home uninvited is breaking the law and may be detained while I wait for the police to show up and haul them to jail. We generally have MORE rights in our own home and need not be retail security officers to detain a person. PERIOD
 

BigDave

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Yakima, Washington, USA
I'm pretty sure that paragraphs 3 and 4 from Aaron's post would more than cover me in my home. Anyone entering my home uninvited is breaking the law and may be detained while I wait for the police to show up and haul them to jail. We generally have MORE rights in our own home and need not be retail security officers to detain a person. PERIOD

Tom the discussion is not about either it being legal or not but more to the repercussions that could arise out of doing so and placing yourself or your family in a greater danger by coming in physical contact with someone wishing to do you and yours harm.
 

tombrewster421

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Messages
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Roy, WA
Ok, I see where I went wrong here. I was looking at how you agreed with goose about "unlawful imprisonment", and then you went on to talk more about the safety issues. I guess my point is that it could not be construed as "unlawful detainment" if someone were to break into your home. I agree that there would be safety issues to address and each situation would be different. Under no circumstances am I saying that I would try to cuff ANYONE that broke in, but if the threat was assessed and it seemed safe to do so, cuffing may be the easiest way to be able to detain someone while waiting for the police to arrive so that you would not have to keep your eyes GLUED to the perp and continue to have heightened stress. Like I said before, IF I were to use my cuffs. And that's a big IF that depends on all the circumstances coming together in just the right way. I know how to exercise judgement.
 

sudden valley gunner

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But moving into the 21st Century, we have delegated those "powers" to a combination of elected or appointed officials (Sheriff's and Police Chief's). The laws are still made by the "people" through their elected representatives but the enforcement is now delegated.

Your disdain for police is well noted but I'd hate to see how our society would function today without their presence.

If you really paid attention to my posts you would note I feel some law enforcement is necessary. Not at the current propaganda levels that some like to put forth.

I think society would function fine, just like it did before the modern day police force was invented. Especially if most people were forced to face the responsibility of defending and protecting themselves. (It is rare that police do this, they usually come to take a report after the incident)

So are you saying you are a progressive? Can you tell me where in the constitution or laws they are now delegated? Cite please.

Your copafilia is well noted, funny thing is cops don't patrol bad neighborhoods, so they aren't much of a deterrent where mostly needed are they? Let's call a spade a spade they spend most the time as civil patrol writing tickets that create revenue for the city.

Police chiefs are not elected they are a political arm of what ever mayor is elected.
 

amlevin

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Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
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North of Seattle, Washington, USA
I think society would function fine, just like it did before the modern day police force was invented. Especially if most people were forced to face the responsibility of defending and protecting themselves. (It is rare that police do this, they usually come to take a report after the incident)

This concept has proven itself to be very dangerous as the Country grew and moved West. Read some about the "Regulators" in the Southwest. How about the hired guns in Johnson County Wyoming. When people have to provide for themselves the "biggest and baddest" prevail. That doesn't necessarily mean those in the right. In both cases I cited landowners and cattlemen decided "what the law was and how it was to be enforced". People were gunned down or hung with no trial.

So are you saying you are a progressive? Can you tell me where in the constitution or laws they are now delegated? Cite please.

Please read the 10th amendment. " the powers prohibited from or not delegated to the Federal Government are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

The State can make laws and compel compliance through several means. That means Courts and even Police.
The first official law officer in this country was not in Boston as earlier quoted but in 1651. The first Sheriff was elected in this country by a Virginia County. This law enforcement position as the "Top Cop" in US Counties was established long before the Constitution was written and is one of those rights retained by the States.


Your copafilia is well noted, funny thing is cops don't patrol bad neighborhoods, so they aren't much of a deterrent where mostly needed are they? Let's call a spade a spade they spend most the time as civil patrol writing tickets that create revenue for the city.

Don't know where you came up with the "word" you invented. Sounds like something a teenager might try in the back seat of daddy's car after a Prom.

I am not a progressive, but someone who is able to read the facts available, draw a conclusion based on that information, and express my opinion. You might go back to some of the LEO related threads and note where I was extremely critical of an officer's actions. I can also recognize when they do something worthwhile. Unlike some, I have no pre-conceived ideas of good or bad when it comes to LEO's. Due to a couple jobs I held in the past I have numerous hours working with, and riding with Police Officers while they went about their tasks. Some of those officers were excellent and some should have been doing something else. The ratio, in those I came in contact with, was about the same as the good/bad ratio you might find in any Corporate or "Blue Collar" job.

Patrol Officers go where they are told. If lots of calls come from a "Good Neighborhood" where their is a tendency to speed, they go there and write tickets. The fine is supposed to slow people down. Would you prefer that they just jail speeders and no fine? Ditto for School Zones. As for the Patrols in Bad neighborhoods, you may never see the officers that are out there doing their job. Ever wonder how those drug busts come about?


Police chiefs are not elected they are a political arm of what ever mayor is elected.

My original statement was "combination of elected or appointed officials (Sheriff's and Police Chief's)."

Please note the words "OR APPOINTED"

As I have stated before, your disdain for Police Officers has been frequently stated. Ever wonder if that may be the underlying issue to your relationship with them in your local area?
 
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