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Thread: CiCi's Incident following Gander Mountain Seminar 11/6

  1. #1
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    CiCi's Incident following Gander Mountain Seminar 11/6

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHQDYgIUEjY



    Things to note:

    1.) They had already let approximately 10 of us in before an issue arose. Three quarters of our party was already seated and eating.

    2.) I walked in late to the situation, immediately flipped my recorder on, and attempted to take hold of a situation that appeared to me to be going south. This is my first 'large scale' negative experience I've encountered, and though I've ran through a thousand LEO encounters in my head, I had to do this one on the fly. I figured targeting CiCi's corporate policy would be my best bet, and finding out whether they abide by federal, state, and local laws. It worked.

    3.) When I get technical, I say 'therefore' way too much. Sorry about that.

    4.) My wording wasn't great. There's one thing I say that makes me cringe that I wasn't quite 'spot on' about, however the overall message worked in our favor. I imagine with time I'll only get better. About five minutes after the incident and having a chance to read over the informational packet, he came and apologized and gave us all free buffet coupons for the future.

    5.) My new recording application for my Android phone sounds pretty damn good.
    Last edited by malignity; 11-07-2010 at 12:49 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHQDYgIUEjY



    Things to note:

    1.) They had already let approximately 10 of us in before an issue arose. Three quarters of our party was already seated and eating.

    2.) I walked in late to the situation, immediately flipped my recorder on, and attempted to take hold of a situation that appeared to me to be going south. This is my first 'large scale' negative experience I've encountered, and though I've ran through a thousand LEO encounters in my head, I had to do this one on the fly. I figured targeting CiCi's corporate policy would be my best bet, and finding out whether they abide by federal, state, and local laws. It worked.

    3.) When I get technical, I say 'therefore' way too much. Sorry about that.

    4.) My wording wasn't great. There's one thing I say that makes me cringe that I wasn't quite 'spot on' about, however the overall message worked in our favor. I imagine with time I'll only get better. About five minutes after the incident and having a chance to read over the informational packet, he came and apologized and gave us all free buffet coupons for the future.

    5.) My new recording application for my Android phone sounds pretty damn good.
    It sounds like after all was said and done everything worked out. I have to commend the manager for backing down and allowing everyone to stay. He did a better job then a lot of LEOs would have. He even gave everyone a coupon for a free meal so they would come back, that was very nice of him.
    Last edited by budlight; 11-07-2010 at 01:33 AM.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    I imagine he backed down because we've come there in the past, there was already around 10 of us who paid and were eating, and when called on the corporate policy, he was just as clueless about it as he was about gun law. When it was all said and done though, yep, it worked out. Seemed like a decent guy; the next seminar we have, I think I might go over there and personally invite him. I'm sure he'll remember me after the incident.

    Also, strangely enough, we were never asked to leave throughout the interaction; at least not after I arrived.
    Last edited by malignity; 11-07-2010 at 01:53 AM.
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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Who kept saying "if you have a sign banning firearms then therefore you aren't abiding by Federal, State, and local law"?

    A private business owner/manager/operator is perfectly within his rights (and the law) to post such a sign. He is also perfectly within his rights to enforce such a sign by requiring people not abiding by it to leave.

    I love Open Carry as much as the next guy here; however, your RKBA DOES NOT override private property owners' rights.


    ETA: weird time travel stuff. My post at 1:01 AM appears AFTER the previous post at 1:45 AM. I love EDT/EST cut over.
    Last edited by TheQ; 11-07-2010 at 01:05 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Who kept saying "if you have a sign banning firearms then therefore you aren't abiding by Federal, State, and local law"?

    A private business owner/manager/operator is perfectly within his rights (and the law) to post such a sign. He is also perfectly within his rights to enforce such a sign by requiring people not abiding by it to leave.

    I love Open Carry as much as the next guy here; however, your RKBA DOES NOT override private property owners' rights.


    ETA: weird time travel stuff. My post at 1:01 AM appears AFTER the previous post at 1:45 AM. I love EDT/EST cut over.
    I didn't understand that either. I thought maybe I missed something on that one.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    It was me that was saying that. Again, like I said, not perfect execution; and in hindsight, I realize that. I posted in the initial post that not everything was spot on. This would be what I was referring to. I SHOULD have been saying "You aren't abiding by CiCi's Corporate Policy." HOWEVER, if he puts up a no firearms sign, he is NOT abiding by federal, state, and local laws, which is what HE told me his corporate policy tells him he must do. See what I'm saying? Different way of saying the same thing, however I can perfectly see your argument. This recording, though slightly 'ugly' was a learning experience for me, and still worthy of posting in my opinion. This is the first time I've ever even had to remotely defend Open Carry in public in the year or two I've open carried, and I thought I did at least a mediocre job.

    Keep in mind:

    If CiCi's CORPORATE policy states that they abide by federal, state, and local laws, he cannot post a no firearms sign there. It doesn't matter what his 'private property' rights are, because a.) CORPORATE POLICY says that CiCi's abides by the law, and b.) because he's the manager and not the owner.

    This is what I was attempting to portray. It didn't quite work out exactly how I wanted to, but the end result was the same.
    Last edited by malignity; 11-07-2010 at 01:31 AM.
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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post

    ETA: weird time travel stuff. My post at 1:01 AM appears AFTER the previous post at 1:45 AM. I love EDT/EST cut over.
    Daylight savings time.
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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    Daylight savings time.
    We'll get you a cape and call you captain obvious

    There were glitches in the execution, but the end result was open carry FTW.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Yep.

    I've always expected problems with LEO's. Today pretty much broadsided me. :P

    One thing to note: Practice in your head interactions with ALL people, cause it's not just LEO's that give you trouble. Lesson learned. LOL
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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    Yep.

    I've always expected problems with LEO's. Today pretty much broadsided me. :P

    One thing to note: Practice in your head interactions with ALL people, cause it's not just LEO's that give you trouble. Lesson learned. LOL

    I have had far more issues .. 99% resolved on the spot with the general public than with Leos.. good job! You will get better with each experience!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    I have had far more issues .. 99% resolved on the spot with the general public than with Leos.. good job! You will get better with each experience!
    +1

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    Nice job!!

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    Actually and technically you were right and don't need to apologize.

    Yes the sign does not reflect Federal, State, or local law. Yes he has the right to OPT out but the sign does in fact do not reflect law. So you were right. I grow tired of those who always try and weasel others here who did right with their technicalities mentality.

    Fact is the sign did not reflect the laws, but he has the right on private property to opt out of the current laws.

    I won't get into the Corporate property is PUBLIC argument because it's way above the intellect of some here. Maybe some need to spend less time watching television and see that any company who goes corporate becomes a public entity by Law. Corporation is an entity created in fiction, and to add a traded company has a CEO not an owner and is by definition PUBLIC, and PUBLIC by law.

    In closing you did a good job...





    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    It was me that was saying that. Again, like I said, not perfect execution; and in hindsight, I realize that. I posted in the initial post that not everything was spot on. This would be what I was referring to. I SHOULD have been saying "You aren't abiding by CiCi's Corporate Policy." HOWEVER, if he puts up a no firearms sign, he is NOT abiding by federal, state, and local laws, which is what HE told me his corporate policy tells him he must do. See what I'm saying? Different way of saying the same thing, however I can perfectly see your argument. This recording, though slightly 'ugly' was a learning experience for me, and still worthy of posting in my opinion. This is the first time I've ever even had to remotely defend Open Carry in public in the year or two I've open carried, and I thought I did at least a mediocre job.

    Keep in mind:

    If CiCi's CORPORATE policy states that they abide by federal, state, and local laws, he cannot post a no firearms sign there. It doesn't matter what his 'private property' rights are, because a.) CORPORATE POLICY says that CiCi's abides by the law, and b.) because he's the manager and not the owner.

    This is what I was attempting to portray. It didn't quite work out exactly how I wanted to, but the end result was the same.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    I won't get into the Corporate property is PUBLIC argument because it's way above the intellect of some here. Maybe some need to spend less time watching television and see that any company who goes corporate becomes a public entity by Law. Corporation is an entity created in fiction, and to add a traded company has a CEO not an owner and is by definition PUBLIC, and PUBLIC by law.
    A corporation is a Legal Person. A legal person has 5 rights:

    • the right to a common treasury or chest (including the right to own property)
    • the right to a corporate seal (i.e., the right to make and sign contracts)
    • the right to sue and be sued (to enforce contracts)
    • the right to hire agents (employees)
    • the right to make by-laws (self-governance).


    Corporate property MIGHT BE a "Public Place", but it is not "Public Property". Public Property can be used by anyone for any lawful; purpose -- that is a purpose not forbidden by law.

    I can go on to the grass at my Local McDonald and play frisbee. Well, I can, but the manager could kick me out. I CAN go to the local park and do so, as long as I'm not violating an ordinance (say, being in the park after 10 PM).

    City Park = Public Place, Public Property
    Local McDonald = Public Place, Private Property

    As a Libertarian I'd think you'd understand and respect private property rights. Yes, Rand Paul was right about the Civil Rights act violating private property rights, but that's WAY OT (more-so than this already is).

    Would love to continue this debate in PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    A corporation is a Legal Person.
    Corporate property MIGHT BE a "Public Place", but it is not "Public Property". Public Property can be used by anyone for any lawful; purpose -- that is a purpose not forbidden by law.

    .
    Agreed.......and well said!

    I have noticed that the general public seems to confuse the two or think they mean the same thing.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post

    City Park = Public Place, Public Property
    Local McDonald = Public Place, Private Property
    I'll bite.

    Your McDonald's ceases to be a McDonald's if not open to the public. You serve the public in order to remain an active business. The only argument I could see with this would be an internet only business; such as an Ebay store.
    Last edited by malignity; 11-07-2010 at 09:26 PM.
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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Btw, this is being pretty much discussed here:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-a-Civil-Right
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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    I'll bite.

    Your McDonald's ceases to be a McDonald's if not open to the public. You serve the public in order to remain an active business. The only argument I could see with this would be an internet only business; such as an Ebay store.
    Yes. McDonald's is a public place. Well done!

    Is it public property (meaning the public owns it)? NO
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    4:06.. Sounded like a fart.

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    A "legal" person has NO constitutional rights, only "Natural" persons.

    That fraud was perpetrated against the American People and we bought the lie out of pure stupidity. The Constitution has and affords no protections of legal persons "fictional entities" created by Government.

    "I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . Corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money-power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."

    -- Abraham Lincoln


    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    A corporation is a Legal Person. A legal person has 5 rights:

    • the right to a common treasury or chest (including the right to own property)
    • the right to a corporate seal (i.e., the right to make and sign contracts)
    • the right to sue and be sued (to enforce contracts)
    • the right to hire agents (employees)
    • the right to make by-laws (self-governance).


    Corporate property MIGHT BE a "Public Place", but it is not "Public Property". Public Property can be used by anyone for any lawful; purpose -- that is a purpose not forbidden by law.

    I can go on to the grass at my Local McDonald and play frisbee. Well, I can, but the manager could kick me out. I CAN go to the local park and do so, as long as I'm not violating an ordinance (say, being in the park after 10 PM).

    City Park = Public Place, Public Property
    Local McDonald = Public Place, Private Property

    As a Libertarian I'd think you'd understand and respect private property rights. Yes, Rand Paul was right about the Civil Rights act violating private property rights, but that's WAY OT (more-so than this already is).

    Would love to continue this debate in PM.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  21. #21
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mo View Post
    4:06.. Sounded like a fart.
    The protective case on my cellphone is partially broken. When I shift my weight it 'cracks' by the microphone. Ironically I guess that's what it sounds like.
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  22. #22
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Yes. McDonald's is a public place. Well done!

    Is it public property (meaning the public owns it)? NO
    How private is it?

    Lets do an analysis:

    In my home, I can ban blue shoes, Islam, and freckled people.

    If I own a McDonald's, I cannot.

    In my own home, I can ban the use of the word 'it', berqas, and foreign cars parked in my driveway.

    If I own a McDonald's, I cannot.

    Not so 'private' property after all, is it? Once you throw corporate policies in the mix, you have even more mumbo jumbo you must follow or cease to exist, such as following federal, state and local law. By putting a 'no firearms' sign up, that means you are not following corporate policy, therefore you must remove the sign or cease to continue being part of the corporation.

    The bottom line is this: there are certain things you CANNOT ban if open to the public. A firearm is no different than blue shoes, or a berqa. It is a tool for self defense, and is NOT TO BE INFRINGED, according to the second amendment to the US Constitution. If my freedom of speech and expression is not allowed to be infringed upon if I wear my blue shoes, neither should my gun allow me to be infringed upon. If you can ban one, you should be able to ban them all. If you can ban none, then none it should be. This 'you can ban this but not that' is proof of a broken system.
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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    Good points! May I add a few things...

    Fact is we the people have been duped (well some of us) into believing a piece of paper (corporation) is human and should have human rights. When one quits acting like a Parrot and actually analyzes this we come to a completely different conclusion. A corporation is owned by interested and disinterested parties. We as a people forgot the intent of the founders of the Constitution, it was designed to protect us from what went on in Europe where the people were not only manipulated by the royals families, but also by the Mega Church of Rome. Have we forgotten about The Inquisitions Where the super state church slaughter millions and grab land at the Queens behest. Many here would probably soil themselves if they knew the real story about the BP Gulf oil disaster where the Roman Catholic church was involved as a 1/3 owner of that well. I bet FOX (EWTN-2) didn't tell you this. Many Corporations operating in this country are owned by entities outside of this country, This includes the Roman Catholic Church, China and many nations and groups who hate our rights.

    Fact is a corporation has NO property rights because there is NO property owner, only investors. There is only a provision for a property "owner" constitutionally.

    I know I will like once before, get the childish analogies like Some religious group crowing a store and interfering with business, a total red hearing argument. There are laws the prevent people from interfering with commerce, so let's not have someone throw that argument out there and ruin his/her credibility.

    Those who are bent of protecting Corporations at the expense of our rights are unknowingly traitors, yes I said it. When one betrays the founding principles of what this country was founded on, then he/she is being a traitor. Now I got all the Liberals pretending to care about our rights, on this site upset. Frankly it's about time we grow up and be men. Millions died to protect what the Founding Fathers gave us and some even on this site I watch with regularity try to whittle away those rights.

    Property rights in the Constitution were enumerated to Persons who were Natural born, not to fictional creatures like a corporation. WE need to finally get it right.

    With Government selling off our infrastructure to foreigners we are loosing this nation and soon will be subject to their whims. The roads you drive on may already be sold to Spain who's history with oppressing rights is well known, not to mention the inquisition.....

    What happens when we are told we can no longer carry on the property of Corporations?

    This would include all roads and all property outside of your own, and guess what, if you do not have a deed and I do NOT man quit claim which is NOT a deed, then you are not the owner of your own property. You are listed as a tenant on your deed and or Mortgage. Yes look it up no where are you the owner.

    Can you people now see the implications?

    And don't tell me it won't or can't happen as you all said that about a firearms ban in the 1970's and Bill Klinton did just that.




    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    How private is it?

    Lets do an analysis:

    In my home, I can ban blue shoes, Islam, and freckled people.

    If I own a McDonald's, I cannot.

    In my own home, I can ban the use of the word 'it', berqas, and foreign cars parked in my driveway.

    If I own a McDonald's, I cannot.

    Not so 'private' property after all, is it? Once you throw corporate policies in the mix, you have even more mumbo jumbo you must follow or cease to exist, such as following federal, state and local law. By putting a 'no firearms' sign up, that means you are not following corporate policy, therefore you must remove the sign or cease to continue being part of the corporation.

    The bottom line is this: there are certain things you CANNOT ban if open to the public. A firearm is no different than blue shoes, or a berqa. It is a tool for self defense, and is NOT TO BE INFRINGED, according to the second amendment to the US Constitution. If my freedom of speech and expression is not allowed to be infringed upon if I wear my blue shoes, neither should my gun allow me to be infringed upon. If you can ban one, you should be able to ban them all. If you can ban none, then none it should be. This 'you can ban this but not that' is proof of a broken system.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  24. #24
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mo
    4:06.. Sounded like a fart.
    The protective case on my cellphone is partially broken. When I shift my weight it 'cracks' by the microphone. Ironically I guess that's what it sounds like.
    I caught that sound and thought the same thing as Mo. I guess that's your story and your sticking to it.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  25. #25
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    In my home, I can ban blue shoes, Islam, and freckled people.

    If I own a McDonald's, I cannot.
    Bail Enforcer here is fond of speaking of Natural rights and Constitutional rights. I am too. As I said in my first post on this topic, the portion of the Civil Rights act called the "lunch counter" violates private property owners rights to do what they want with their property (be it a sole proprietor or a corporation) Should you be able to ban all of those things in YOUR McDonalds, yes. You can already ban blue shoes. Post a sign and kick everyone out with blue shoes. It's your natural right to ban the other two as well. If I don't like your practie (even if I'm not in the excluded group -- bu I'm against racism) you likely won't see me spending my money at your restaurant either.

    Why should you guys take my word for it? Go talk to 100 lawyers, go ahead, you can pick every one of them as long as they are licensed by the bar.

    All 100 will tell you the McDonalds is private property! I rest my case.

    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    The bottom line is this: there are certain things you CANNOT ban if open to the public. A firearm is no different than blue shoes, or a berqa. It is a tool for self defense, and is NOT TO BE INFRINGED, according to the second amendment to the US Constitution.
    You sadly misunderstand the protections the Constitution gives you. The Constitution protects you from the government, not your fellow citizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    Fact is a corporation has NO property rights because there is NO property owner, only investors. There is only a provision for a property "owner" constitutionally.
    And those investors are people and they have the right to their property -- their shares. Their shares indicate partial ownership of a corporation, of which the officers are stewards selected by the shareholders. Let's temporally assume the corporation has no inherent rights. The shareholders have rights.

    If you persist in believing Corporate private property means anyone can use it for public purposes -- great. There's a company in Midland, Michigan. It has two private property campuses in this location surrounded by gates. Go have a picnic on their lawn. Stay in the same spot in the visible open all week long. Refuse to leave when someone tells you to. Tell me what jail they have you in by week's end -- I'll come visit!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    Property rights in the Constitution were enumerated to Persons who were Natural born, not to fictional creatures like a corporation.
    [citation needed]

    In fact, the only time the word "property" is mentioned in the Constitution is here:

    "The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State."

    Again, this is off-topic. Please IM me if you wish to continue to debate this point.
    Last edited by TheQ; 11-08-2010 at 11:53 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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