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CiCi's Incident following Gander Mountain Seminar 11/6

malignity

malignity

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHQDYgIUEjY



Things to note:

1.) They had already let approximately 10 of us in before an issue arose. Three quarters of our party was already seated and eating.

2.) I walked in late to the situation, immediately flipped my recorder on, and attempted to take hold of a situation that appeared to me to be going south. This is my first 'large scale' negative experience I've encountered, and though I've ran through a thousand LEO encounters in my head, I had to do this one on the fly. I figured targeting CiCi's corporate policy would be my best bet, and finding out whether they abide by federal, state, and local laws. It worked.

3.) When I get technical, I say 'therefore' way too much. Sorry about that. :lol:

4.) My wording wasn't great. There's one thing I say that makes me cringe that I wasn't quite 'spot on' about, however the overall message worked in our favor. I imagine with time I'll only get better. About five minutes after the incident and having a chance to read over the informational packet, he came and apologized and gave us all free buffet coupons for the future.

5.) My new recording application for my Android phone sounds pretty damn good.
 
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budlight

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malignity said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHQDYgIUEjY



Things to note:

1.) They had already let approximately 10 of us in before an issue arose. Three quarters of our party was already seated and eating.

2.) I walked in late to the situation, immediately flipped my recorder on, and attempted to take hold of a situation that appeared to me to be going south. This is my first 'large scale' negative experience I've encountered, and though I've ran through a thousand LEO encounters in my head, I had to do this one on the fly. I figured targeting CiCi's corporate policy would be my best bet, and finding out whether they abide by federal, state, and local laws. It worked.

3.) When I get technical, I say 'therefore' way too much. Sorry about that. :lol:

4.) My wording wasn't great. There's one thing I say that makes me cringe that I wasn't quite 'spot on' about, however the overall message worked in our favor. I imagine with time I'll only get better. About five minutes after the incident and having a chance to read over the informational packet, he came and apologized and gave us all free buffet coupons for the future.

5.) My new recording application for my Android phone sounds pretty damn good.
Click to expand...

It sounds like after all was said and done everything worked out. I have to commend the manager for backing down and allowing everyone to stay. He did a better job then a lot of LEOs would have. He even gave everyone a coupon for a free meal so they would come back, that was very nice of him.
 
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malignity

malignity

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I imagine he backed down because we've come there in the past, there was already around 10 of us who paid and were eating, and when called on the corporate policy, he was just as clueless about it as he was about gun law. When it was all said and done though, yep, it worked out. Seemed like a decent guy; the next seminar we have, I think I might go over there and personally invite him. I'm sure he'll remember me after the incident.

Also, strangely enough, we were never asked to leave throughout the interaction; at least not after I arrived.
 
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TheQ

TheQ

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Who kept saying "if you have a sign banning firearms then therefore you aren't abiding by Federal, State, and local law"?

A private business owner/manager/operator is perfectly within his rights (and the law) to post such a sign. He is also perfectly within his rights to enforce such a sign by requiring people not abiding by it to leave.

I love Open Carry as much as the next guy here; however, your RKBA DOES NOT override private property owners' rights. :banghead::banghead::banghead::cuss::cuss::cuss:


ETA: weird time travel stuff. My post at 1:01 AM appears AFTER the previous post at 1:45 AM. I love EDT/EST cut over.
 
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budlight

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TheQ said:
Who kept saying "if you have a sign banning firearms then therefore you aren't abiding by Federal, State, and local law"?

A private business owner/manager/operator is perfectly within his rights (and the law) to post such a sign. He is also perfectly within his rights to enforce such a sign by requiring people not abiding by it to leave.

I love Open Carry as much as the next guy here; however, your RKBA DOES NOT override private property owners' rights. :banghead::banghead::banghead::cuss::cuss::cuss:


ETA: weird time travel stuff. My post at 1:01 AM appears AFTER the previous post at 1:45 AM. I love EDT/EST cut over.
Click to expand...

I didn't understand that either. I thought maybe I missed something on that one.
 
malignity

malignity

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It was me that was saying that. Again, like I said, not perfect execution; and in hindsight, I realize that. I posted in the initial post that not everything was spot on. This would be what I was referring to. I SHOULD have been saying "You aren't abiding by CiCi's Corporate Policy." HOWEVER, if he puts up a no firearms sign, he is NOT abiding by federal, state, and local laws, which is what HE told me his corporate policy tells him he must do. See what I'm saying? Different way of saying the same thing, however I can perfectly see your argument. This recording, though slightly 'ugly' was a learning experience for me, and still worthy of posting in my opinion. This is the first time I've ever even had to remotely defend Open Carry in public in the year or two I've open carried, and I thought I did at least a mediocre job.

Keep in mind:

If CiCi's CORPORATE policy states that they abide by federal, state, and local laws, he cannot post a no firearms sign there. It doesn't matter what his 'private property' rights are, because a.) CORPORATE POLICY says that CiCi's abides by the law, and b.) because he's the manager and not the owner.

This is what I was attempting to portray. It didn't quite work out exactly how I wanted to, but the end result was the same.
 
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malignity

malignity

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Yep.

I've always expected problems with LEO's. Today pretty much broadsided me. :p

One thing to note: Practice in your head interactions with ALL people, cause it's not just LEO's that give you trouble. Lesson learned. LOL
 
A

autosurgeon

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malignity said:
Yep.

I've always expected problems with LEO's. Today pretty much broadsided me. :p

One thing to note: Practice in your head interactions with ALL people, cause it's not just LEO's that give you trouble. Lesson learned. LOL
Click to expand...


I have had far more issues .. 99% resolved on the spot with the general public than with Leos.. good job! You will get better with each experience!
 
Bailenforcer

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Actually and technically you were right and don't need to apologize.

Yes the sign does not reflect Federal, State, or local law. Yes he has the right to OPT out but the sign does in fact do not reflect law. So you were right. I grow tired of those who always try and weasel others here who did right with their technicalities mentality.

Fact is the sign did not reflect the laws, but he has the right on private property to opt out of the current laws.

I won't get into the Corporate property is PUBLIC argument because it's way above the intellect of some here. Maybe some need to spend less time watching television and see that any company who goes corporate becomes a public entity by Law. Corporation is an entity created in fiction, and to add a traded company has a CEO not an owner and is by definition PUBLIC, and PUBLIC by law.

In closing you did a good job...





malignity said:
It was me that was saying that. Again, like I said, not perfect execution; and in hindsight, I realize that. I posted in the initial post that not everything was spot on. This would be what I was referring to. I SHOULD have been saying "You aren't abiding by CiCi's Corporate Policy." HOWEVER, if he puts up a no firearms sign, he is NOT abiding by federal, state, and local laws, which is what HE told me his corporate policy tells him he must do. See what I'm saying? Different way of saying the same thing, however I can perfectly see your argument. This recording, though slightly 'ugly' was a learning experience for me, and still worthy of posting in my opinion. This is the first time I've ever even had to remotely defend Open Carry in public in the year or two I've open carried, and I thought I did at least a mediocre job.

Keep in mind:

If CiCi's CORPORATE policy states that they abide by federal, state, and local laws, he cannot post a no firearms sign there. It doesn't matter what his 'private property' rights are, because a.) CORPORATE POLICY says that CiCi's abides by the law, and b.) because he's the manager and not the owner.

This is what I was attempting to portray. It didn't quite work out exactly how I wanted to, but the end result was the same.
Click to expand...
 
TheQ

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Bailenforcer said:
I won't get into the Corporate property is PUBLIC argument because it's way above the intellect of some here. Maybe some need to spend less time watching television and see that any company who goes corporate becomes a public entity by Law. Corporation is an entity created in fiction, and to add a traded company has a CEO not an owner and is by definition PUBLIC, and PUBLIC by law.
Click to expand...

A corporation is a Legal Person. A legal person has 5 rights:

  • the right to a common treasury or chest (including the right to own property)
  • the right to a corporate seal (i.e., the right to make and sign contracts)
  • the right to sue and be sued (to enforce contracts)
  • the right to hire agents (employees)
  • the right to make by-laws (self-governance).

Corporate property MIGHT BE a "Public Place", but it is not "Public Property". Public Property can be used by anyone for any lawful; purpose -- that is a purpose not forbidden by law.

I can go on to the grass at my Local McDonald and play frisbee. Well, I can, but the manager could kick me out. I CAN go to the local park and do so, as long as I'm not violating an ordinance (say, being in the park after 10 PM).

City Park = Public Place, Public Property
Local McDonald = Public Place, Private Property

As a Libertarian I'd think you'd understand and respect private property rights. Yes, Rand Paul was right about the Civil Rights act violating private property rights, but that's WAY OT (more-so than this already is).

Would love to continue this debate in PM.
 
B

budlight

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TheQ said:
A corporation is a Legal Person.
Corporate property MIGHT BE a "Public Place", but it is not "Public Property". Public Property can be used by anyone for any lawful; purpose -- that is a purpose not forbidden by law.

.
Click to expand...

Agreed.......and well said!

I have noticed that the general public seems to confuse the two or think they mean the same thing.
 
malignity

malignity

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TheQ said:
City Park = Public Place, Public Property
Local McDonald = Public Place, Private Property
Click to expand...

I'll bite.

Your McDonald's ceases to be a McDonald's if not open to the public. You serve the public in order to remain an active business. The only argument I could see with this would be an internet only business; such as an Ebay store.
 
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TheQ

TheQ

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malignity said:
I'll bite.

Your McDonald's ceases to be a McDonald's if not open to the public. You serve the public in order to remain an active business. The only argument I could see with this would be an internet only business; such as an Ebay store.
Click to expand...

Yes. McDonald's is a public place. Well done!

Is it public property (meaning the public owns it)? NO
 
Bailenforcer

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A "legal" person has NO constitutional rights, only "Natural" persons.

That fraud was perpetrated against the American People and we bought the lie out of pure stupidity. The Constitution has and affords no protections of legal persons "fictional entities" created by Government.

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . Corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money-power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."

-- Abraham Lincoln


TheQ said:
A corporation is a Legal Person. A legal person has 5 rights:

  • the right to a common treasury or chest (including the right to own property)
  • the right to a corporate seal (i.e., the right to make and sign contracts)
  • the right to sue and be sued (to enforce contracts)
  • the right to hire agents (employees)
  • the right to make by-laws (self-governance).

Corporate property MIGHT BE a "Public Place", but it is not "Public Property". Public Property can be used by anyone for any lawful; purpose -- that is a purpose not forbidden by law.

I can go on to the grass at my Local McDonald and play frisbee. Well, I can, but the manager could kick me out. I CAN go to the local park and do so, as long as I'm not violating an ordinance (say, being in the park after 10 PM).

City Park = Public Place, Public Property
Local McDonald = Public Place, Private Property

As a Libertarian I'd think you'd understand and respect private property rights. Yes, Rand Paul was right about the Civil Rights act violating private property rights, but that's WAY OT (more-so than this already is).

Would love to continue this debate in PM.
Click to expand...
 
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