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Thread: Do I, as an AD Military Member need a WA CPL? Doesn't reciprocity cover me here?

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    Do I, as an AD Military Member need a WA CPL? Doesn't reciprocity cover me here?

    Okay, so I brought this question over from a previous thread. I'll list the particulars:

    1. I am a FL resident: voter registration, DL, vehicle license plates, FL resident concealed pistol permit, etc.

    2. I'm Active Duty Air Force stationed at JBLM.

    3. I live in University Place, WA (as Uncle Sam has seen fit to move me here ;-)

    4. Other than rent an apartment here, and send my kids to school here, I have no other ties to WA. I have no intention of living here longer than the AF says I have to.

    5. I know federal firearms law allows me to purchase firearms here.

    6. "Home of record" is almost always the state where you first joined the military. Home of record (HOR) is an accounting term used by the military to determine a number of military benefits, such as travel allowances, transportation expenses, travel time to report to duty, etc. A soldier's HOR is usually the same as the soldier's SLR, but that's merely a coincidence, since most people just happen to join the military in the state that is also their SLR. Except in the military, home of record is usually a meaningless term. However, since the HOR is the same as the SLR so frequently, some colleges have started asking for information about the HOR as evidence of a person's SLR. My HOR is South Dakota

    7. "State of legal residence" (SLR) and "domicile" mean the same thing, namely your true, fixed, and permanent abode. It is your permanent home, i.e., the place where, while you are absent from it, you intend to return to. For example, a soldier with a SLR in Oregon leaves the state on military orders, but intends to go back to Oregon after leaving the military. Oregon is his permanent home, even though he is temporarily absent from it due to military orders. The soldier might never be stationed in Oregon during a thirty-year military career, and yet Oregon would remain the soldier's SLR for the entire thirty-year period. I was stationed in FL 6 years ago, and I still intend to move back there when I retire, I changed my SLR to Florida

    8. I do maintain a "residence" in WA. However, "Residence" means the place where you are actually living. By itself, residence usually has little or no legal significance. Under the Servicemembers Civil Relief Act, I don't automatically become a Legal Resident of WA, just because I moved here.

    9. Do I need a WA CPL to carry here? Would it be resident or non-resident? (I do recognize that WA law may have something that requires me to get one, but AFAIK I haven't seen it)

    All comments are welcome (pasting the appropriate legal references is especially appreciated!)

    Thanks!

    thomasdrs72
    Last edited by thomasdrs72; 11-07-2010 at 01:37 AM.

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    I agree that I CAN get a WA CPL, the question is do i NEED to ;-)

    NavyLT,

    While I recognize that in the end you my actually be correct, the references you included still don't satisfy the argument:

    R.C.W. 46-20-021 pertains to my eligibility to apply for a WA DL... Yes, I can get a WA DL, but that statute doesn't require me to have one...

    18 USC 921 is virtually the same as 27 CFR 478.11 (below) specifically dealing in Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition.

    27 CFR 478.11 is a statute pertaining in Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition, that's exactly the federal statute that allows a servicemember to purchase a firearm here, but that doesn't do anything to make it illegal to carry one here (concealed or not).

    Ok, for some reason (hopefully will change someday) CC is regulated by each state, so I'm looking for the requirement to have a WA CPL.

    Also, is there any need to be a legal resident of WA in order to OC?

    Cheers!

    thomasdrs72

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    I'm not sure what happened...

    It kinda looks like I may have deleted somebody's post... Is that possible? I didn't mean to...

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    NavyLT-

    What we have here is proof of the old saying:

    "There are basically three kinds of men. There are the ones who learn
    by reading. Then there are the few who learn by being told. Then there are those that
    just have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."

    Quote Originally Posted by thomasdrs72
    Also, is there any need to be a legal resident of WA in order to OC?
    No.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Thune Amendment

    Would the Thune amendment of made any difference in this type of situation?
    Live Free or Die!

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    Cool

    Active duty on orders is a non-resident. Is your Florida permit valid? *shrug* I am not a lawyer. Any lawyers want to offer a free opinion?



    Get you a non-resident CPL and be done with it. It costs less than a real lawyer and you can add it to your collection. I've got CT, UT, and WA permits - just wish I'd never let the UT expire when I PCS'd out of there. :cry
    LOL

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Cpl

    Just OC and this question becomes mute. (till you get in the car or go on base)
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Please offer a citation in statute to back up your claim.



    We'll get close enough to an official answer in a couple of days. Email sent today to:
    firearms@dol.wa.gov

    DOL,

    RCW 9.41.073 offers reciprocity of out-of-state CPLs to persons until they become residents of WA state and then their out-of-state CPL becomes invalid.

    Does this also apply to active duty service members who have permanent duty station orders to WA state? Do active duty service members on permanent orders to WA state have to obtain a WA CPL, or do their out-of-state CPLs remain valid. Obviously the AG’s list of recognized states would still apply.

    Thank you for your time and attention,
    Very Respectfully,
    LT John H.....
    Navy - you can call it a claim if you like. I'm speaking from experience. YMMV
    Your inquiry to DOL will be likely be answered by a beauracrat... and probably falls into the category of "asking questions you don't want the answer to" - but that's the way it goes sometimes.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    NavyLt my hat is off to you and your research on this topic, thank you.

    Might I add a bill SB 6864 - 2007-08 was introduced by Senator Roach to modifying provisions on concealed pistol licenses on this very issue and went no where.

    The original bill can be seen here.

    This is what was proposed but I say again did not go anywhere.

    (b) This section applies to a license holder from another state
    only while the license holder is not a resident of this state. ((A
    license holder from another state must carry the handgun in compliance
    with the laws of this state.))
    p. 1 SB 6864
    (2) An active duty member of the United States armed forces,
    including the national guard and armed forces reserves stationed in the
    state, who is licensed to carry a concealed pistol in another state, is
    authorized to carry a concealed pistol in this state.
    (3) A license holder from another state must carry the handgun in
    compliance with the laws of this state.
    This is the current RCW.

    RCW 9.41.073 Concealed pistol license — Reciprocity.

    (1)(a) A person licensed to carry a pistol in a state the laws of which recognize and give effect in that state to a concealed pistol license issued under the laws of the state of Washington is authorized to carry a concealed pistol in this state if:

    (i) The licensing state does not issue concealed pistol licenses to persons under twenty-one years of age; and

    (ii) The licensing state requires mandatory fingerprint-based background checks of criminal and mental health history for all persons who apply for a concealed pistol license.

    (b) This section applies to a license holder from another state only while the license holder is not a resident of this state. A license holder from another state must carry the handgun in compliance with the laws of this state.

    (2) The attorney general shall periodically publish a list of states the laws of which recognize and give effect in that state to a concealed pistol license issued under the laws of the state of Washington and which meet the requirements of subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii) of this section.
    Last edited by BigDave; 11-07-2010 at 01:15 PM.
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    It would be nice to get a read from the DOL, I sent them my previous question, hopefully we will hear some answers, and we'll get an official answer...

    Like all of you, I just want to be protected ;-) I don't like that all of a sudden my gun becomes "concealed" as soon as I sit in the car... That's why OC doesn't feel too practical to me. The only time I've been assaulted in my adult life, was when I was in my car...

    Cheers!

    thomasdrs72
    Last edited by thomasdrs72; 11-07-2010 at 02:26 PM.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    So, apparently, Senator Roach did not think that reciprocity extended to military service members. But he's just a political bureaucrat, to quote tony d tiger.

    It's funny, though, these same people who will claim that reciprocity does apply to them because they are not residents, will also stand in line at the FFL to buy handguns and claim that they are residents, or will take in-state tuition at colleges claiming that they are residents.
    Senator Pam Roach was the Only Sponsor of this bill (wanting it to pass), she did not kill it, but with out any co-sponsors it just sat there and died, not her choice.

    There appears to have been little support in our Legislature which was dominate in our State Legislature and the Democrats still hold the majority.
    It was explained to me while we are not able to push new legislation ahead for right to bear arms the democrats do not have enough to take away what we have now.


    Senator Pam Roach - 31st District, Auburn
    “The people of this state do not yield their sovereignty to the agencies that serve them.The people…do not give their public servants the right to decide what is good for the people to know and what is not good for them to know. The people insist on remaining informed so that they may maintain control over the instruments that they have created…”
    Last edited by BigDave; 11-07-2010 at 03:10 PM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    So, apparently, Senator Roach did not think that reciprocity extended to military service members. But he's just a political bureaucrat, to quote tony d tiger.

    It's funny, though, these same people who will claim that reciprocity does apply to them because they are not residents, will also stand in line at the FFL to buy handguns and claim that they are residents, or will take in-state tuition at colleges claiming that they are residents.
    keep diggin'... I'll wait-n-see what happens.

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    Hey, I don't make policy gentlemen, I'm an instrument of said policy. AFAIK, not all states do allow non-resident servicemembers in-state tuition rates and such.

    Circumstances like these are precisely why my spouse collects her unemployment benefits from the state of CO, because she's not a WA legal resident.

    It's not all "gaming the system" sometimes there are specific disadvantages. Had I not become a FL resident, my property taxes on my home would have been almost 4x what I paid when I lived there. Unfortunately, now that I don't live in that home I don't qualify for that break anymore...

    Oh well, that's why a servicemember needs to take time to carefully consider their options before changing their state of legal residence...

    Cheers!

    As far as tuituion, here's a message from WWU:

    3.A student who is on active military duty and stationed in Washington or the spouse or a dependent of a person who is on active military duty stationed in the state. Such a student is classified as a resident for tuition purposes only and is not eligible for other benefits provided to residents.
    Last edited by thomasdrs72; 11-07-2010 at 04:41 PM.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    So, apparently, Senator Roach did not think that reciprocity extended to military service members. But he's just a political bureaucrat, to quote tony d tiger.

    It's funny, though, these same people who will claim that reciprocity does apply to them because they are not residents, will also stand in line at the FFL to buy handguns and claim that they are residents, or will take in-state tuition at colleges claiming that they are residents.
    Right there in line for in-state tuition with the "illegals".
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    I am a military non-resident in Washington, here are some notes:

    http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/edlfaq.html
    Can I get an enhanced driver license if I have a license from another state but am living in Washington while on active military service?
    No, you must be a resident of Washington State and be able to show us proof of residency when you apply.

    --so, being a military non-resident, I cannot get an EDL to travel to Canada, that why I must have a current US passport if I want to go travel there…

    http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/420044.pdf
    Non-Resident Military Affidavit for Exemption of Excise Tax

    --as a military non-resident, I can get WA plates for my vehicles. However, the rules are somewhat different than for residents. (less fees)

    Remember, the illegals choose to come here. This is a beautiful area, but I'm only here because the Federal Gov't requires me to be...

    Cheers!

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    Military

    Anybody who serves in the military/LE/Fire deserve the few extra perks we get. My .02.
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Right there in line for in-state tuition with the "illegals".
    So wait a minute here? The fact that someone has VOLUNTEERED to serve their country (unlike some people who just sit on their mommy and daddys couch munching Fritos all day) all the sudden they are "illegals" and treated WORSE than anyone else?

    The fact that certain "privileges" are extended to AD military should be HONORED and RESPECTED. Does anyone "piss and moan" when they go to Denny's because they didn't get a 10% discount like the "illegal military guys" do? What about the gun store? Almost ALL of them give some sort of a military/LEO discount, does anyone complain then?
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    "If the rest of the world says: 'War,' I can only say: 'Very well. I do not want war, but no one, however peaceable, can live in peace if his neighbor intends to force a quarrel.'" - Adolf Hitler...

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    Don't be too hard on amlevin, he's entitled speak his mind... In fact, all of my adult life I have been protecting his constitutional right to do so.

    I do try to patronize those establishments that show appreciation for what I do, I don't deny it. The least I can do is acknowledge those who show their appreciation. They are going above and beyond, in my heart...

    The last time I had a meal in Denny's, I was sitting in uniform with my family and a complete stranger came up to me and thanked me for my service. I didn't solicit it, but I showed my appreciation by standing and thanking him back. I noticed that he was wearing a retiree hat, and I thanked him for his service as well. --After all, without the efforts of those men (and women) who stood the line before, we would still be subjects of the empire (or worse). I've been doing this a long time, and every time someone does this it still brings a tear to my eye!

    You have a right to speak your mind sir, and I would gladly give my life in defense of that right.

    Remember, every servicemember standing the line today wrote a check--payable to the nation--to do whatever is asked--no matter the cost--up to, and including our lives...

    That's the bottom line...

    Cheers!
    Last edited by thomasdrs72; 11-07-2010 at 08:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    That's certainly interesting. You would think that I would be able to turn my Washington State ID Card, which I already have, with my Washington address on it...into an enhanced ID card simply by showing my certified US Birth Certificate. I would think that my Washington State ID card, issued by the State of Washington, with a Washington address on it would be proof of Washington State residency.... not to mention two years of utility bills. Oh... and my CPL with my Washington address on it too. It would probably really confuse them if I showed them my Wyoming Driver's License which has my Washington address on it (even the state of Wyoming acknowledges that I am a Washington resident!)
    Crazy isn't it? It answer is almost always more complicated than a reasonably prudent individual (RPI) would make it. Too bad we can't seem to elect those elusive RPI's to public office. Maybe it's because RPI's aren't crazy enough to get into the system in the first place...

    Cheers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    just oc and this question becomes mute. (till you get in the car or go on base)
    moot.
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    Regular Member Lammo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomasdrs72 View Post
    It would be nice to get a read from the DOL, I sent them my previous question, hopefully we will hear some answers, and we'll get an official answer...

    Like all of you, I just want to be protected ;-) I don't like that all of a sudden my gun becomes "concealed" as soon as I sit in the car... That's why OC doesn't feel too practical to me. The only time I've been assaulted in my adult life, was when I was in my car...

    Cheers!

    thomasdrs72
    Seems to me that the answer is to go to the Pierce County Sheriff's Department (they contract with University Place), apply for a WA CPL fully explaining that you are active duty stationed in WA and see which permit they give you - - resident or non-resident. They will either issue you a permit for $55.25 or tell you you don't need one. If the latter, get it in writing and carry it with you right next to your FL permit. I don't know whether a non-resident permit looks different from a resident as I have never seen one (I have had my WA permit since about 1991 or 1992, when it was called a Concealed Weapon Permit). It also strikes me as odd that someone would be issued a "non-resident" permit that carries a Washington address (contrast my Utah permit which on it's face is non-resident as it carries my Washington address).

    BTW: IAALBTCBCLABIAADPAACMAPP.
    IAALBIAAFTDPASNIPHCBCALA
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    I am in snohomish county and active duty. Resident of TX with TX DL and was issued resident CPL due to currently on orders to this state. I was told that as active duty on perm. orders I qualify as resident. Same with fishing and hunting licenses. They only needed a copy of my orders, proof that i was living here and a valid ID. and of course the 65.00 bucks..

  23. #23
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    Yes, apply for a WA CPL if you want to conceal carry or open carry in vehgicles - not a big deal, just do it.

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    I guess I'll ask the lawyers, considering I just renewed my FL permit in Aug ($117--7yrs--good in 33 states) I'm resisting the cashectomy...

    But knowing that $55 only pays a good lawer for about 13 mins (after you've already blown $3k or more on his/her retainer). I recognize it may be smart money spent...

    I am not a resident! (Is my face blue yet?)

    Cheers!

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    Resident

    OP:

    You may not consider yourself a resident.... but for many legal aspects - you are.

    "Get a lawyer" what a joke. That is such a sad statement... I mean you know how much a retainer is? And the fees and hourly rate and the filings.... etc, etc.

    It's $55.25 - done in about an hour and a wait of about a few weeks.

    Is it worth your commission? You're a commissioned officer? Lead by example?

    Just words from a fellow commissioned officer (well "ex" since I'm out).
    Last edited by oldkim; 11-08-2010 at 10:35 AM.

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