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Thread: School premises

  1. #1
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    School premises

    Recently, a LEO as well as the State AG (WA) told me that I could not get out of my car when picking up my daughter at school if I was carrying. The State AG said that since the law did not say I could get out of my car that I couldn't. Washington operates under the principles of English law. This states that if something is not proscribed by the law and therefore illegal, that is legal, meaning that I should be allowed to leave my vehicle. Any ideas here?

  2. #2
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    You are right on the legal principle.

    As far as WA law goes, you are better off asking in the Washington forum. It is very near the bottom of the main index.

    Welcome!

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    RCW 9.41.280
    Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities — Penalty — Exceptions.

    (1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

    (a) Any firearm;


    (b) Any other dangerous weapon as defined in RCW 9.41.250;

    (c) Any device commonly known as "nun-chu-ka sticks", consisting of two or more lengths of wood, metal, plastic, or similar substance connected with wire, rope, or other means;

    (d) Any device, commonly known as "throwing stars", which are multi-pointed, metal objects designed to embed upon impact from any aspect; or

    (e) Any air gun, including any air pistol or air rifle, designed to propel a BB, pellet, or other projectile by the discharge of compressed air, carbon dioxide, or other gas.

    (2) Any such person violating subsection (1) of this section is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1)(a) of this section, the person shall have his or her concealed pistol license, if any revoked for a period of three years. Anyone convicted under this subsection is prohibited from applying for a concealed pistol license for a period of three years. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

    (a) Any student or employee of a private military academy when on the property of the academy;

    (b) Any person engaged in military, law enforcement, or school district security activities;

    (c) Any person who is involved in a convention, showing, demonstration, lecture, or firearms safety course authorized by school authorities in which the firearms of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed;

    (d) Any person while the person is participating in a firearms or air gun competition approved by the school or school district;

    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

    (g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school; or

    (h) Any law enforcement officer of the federal, state, or local government agency.

    I trimmed a little bit out of it with regards to the process for a student bringing a firearm to school, but the meat and potatoes are still there. NO WHERE in there does it say you CAN'T bring your firearm outside of your vehicle. As a matter of fact it states "carry onto" carrying is holding something am I correct? (well really REALLY basic definition but still) I PERSONALLY SEE no such circumstance where (for example) it says that you can't walk into the office (with your CPL and pistol) and ask them to bring your child to you so you may take him/her to a doctors appointment or the Realtor or whatever. I dont know if this is the way it ACTUALLY works in practice though as I dont have kids in school....

    Now the thing I have to ask here is since it specifically references the exemptions of 9.41.060 does this mean that someone could be going to a "legitimate outdoor activity", stop along the way to pick up their kid at school and continue on the legitimate outdoor activity?
    Last edited by devildoc5; 11-07-2010 at 08:54 PM.
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobias5jun View Post
    Recently, a LEO as well as the State AG (WA) told me that I could not get out of my car when picking up my daughter at school if I was carrying. The State AG said that since the law did not say I could get out of my car that I couldn't. Washington operates under the principles of English law. This states that if something is not proscribed by the law and therefore illegal, that is legal, meaning that I should be allowed to leave my vehicle. Any ideas here?
    A couple of questions here....


    Do you have a permit to carry a concealed weapon (whatever Washington's term is here)? If you so are exempt per the posted law in the "bolded" part AS LONG AS YOU ARE PICKING UP OF DROPPING OFF A STUDENT.
    If you don't have a permit, YOUR FIREARM MUST STAY IN THE VEHICLE TO BE COMPLIANT WITH THIS LAW.
    Please don't bust my chops about failing to mention anything about the carry of a weapon in a vehicle without a permit (I am not a washington resident, I do have a permit that Washington recognizes so I personally haven't worried myself about this portion).
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 11-07-2010 at 09:05 PM.

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    After having talked via PM with our resident knowitall it appears that there is a section 6 that states no one can carry INSIDE a school building unless they fall under a,b,c and h NOT e. Therefore you CAN OC/CC to the doors but not through the doors into the building. At least this seems to be the general consensus. Hope that clears a few things up....
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
    So we shall flow a river forth to Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
    E nomine Patri, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti."


    "If the rest of the world says: 'War,' I can only say: 'Very well. I do not want war, but no one, however peaceable, can live in peace if his neighbor intends to force a quarrel.'" - Adolf Hitler...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCW 9.41.280
    (1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

    (a) Any firearm;


    (b) Any other dangerous weapon as defined in RCW 9.41.250;

    (c) Any device commonly known as "nun-chu-ka sticks", consisting of two or more lengths of wood, metal, plastic, or similar substance connected with wire, rope, or other means;

    (d) Any device, commonly known as "throwing stars", which are multi-pointed, metal objects designed to embed upon impact from any aspect;

    (e) Any air gun, including any air pistol or air rifle, designed to propel a BB, pellet, or other projectile by the discharge of compressed air, carbon dioxide, or other gas; or

    (f)(i) Any portable device manufactured to function as a weapon and which is commonly known as a stun gun, including a projectile stun gun which projects wired probes that are attached to the device that emit an electrical charge designed to administer to a person or an animal an electric shock, charge, or impulse; or

    (ii) Any device, object, or instrument which is used or intended to be used as a weapon with the intent to injure a person by an electric shock, charge, or impulse.

    (2) Any such person violating subsection (1) of this section is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1)(a) of this section, the person shall have his or her concealed pistol license, if any revoked for a period of three years. Anyone convicted under this subsection is prohibited from applying for a concealed pistol license for a period of three years. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

    Any violation of subsection (1) of this section by elementary or secondary school students constitutes grounds for expulsion from the state's public schools in accordance with RCW 28A.600.010. An appropriate school authority shall promptly notify law enforcement and the student's parent or guardian regarding any allegation or indication of such violation.

    Upon the arrest of a person at least twelve years of age and not more than twenty-one years of age for violating subsection (1)(a) of this section, the person shall be detained or confined in a juvenile or adult facility for up to seventy-two hours. The person shall not be released within the seventy-two hours until after the person has been examined and evaluated by the designated mental health professional unless the court in its discretion releases the person sooner after a determination regarding probable cause or on probation bond or bail.

    Within twenty-four hours of the arrest, the arresting law enforcement agency shall refer the person to the designated mental health professional for examination and evaluation under chapter 71.05 or 71.34 RCW and inform a parent or guardian of the person of the arrest, detention, and examination. The designated mental health professional shall examine and evaluate the person subject to the provisions of chapter 71.05 or 71.34 RCW. The examination shall occur at the facility in which the person is detained or confined. If the person has been released on probation, bond, or bail, the examination shall occur wherever is appropriate.

    The designated mental health professional may determine whether to refer the person to the county-designated chemical dependency specialist for examination and evaluation in accordance with chapter 70.96A RCW. The county-designated chemical dependency specialist shall examine the person subject to the provisions of chapter 70.96A RCW. The examination shall occur at the facility in which the person is detained or confined. If the person has been released on probation, bond, or bail, the examination shall occur wherever is appropriate.

    Upon completion of any examination by the designated mental health professional or the county-designated chemical dependency specialist, the results of the examination shall be sent to the court, and the court shall consider those results in making any determination about the person.

    The designated mental health professional and county-designated chemical dependency specialist shall, to the extent permitted by law, notify a parent or guardian of the person that an examination and evaluation has taken place and the results of the examination. Nothing in this subsection prohibits the delivery of additional, appropriate mental health examinations to the person while the person is detained or confined.

    If the designated mental health professional determines it is appropriate, the designated mental health professional may refer the person to the local regional support network for follow-up services or the department of social and health services or other community providers for other services to the family and individual.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

    (a) Any student or employee of a private military academy when on the property of the academy;

    (b) Any person engaged in military, law enforcement, or school district security activities. However, a person who is not a commissioned law enforcement officer and who provides school security services under the direction of a school administrator may not possess a device listed in subsection (1)(f) of this section unless he or she has successfully completed training in the use of such devices that is equivalent to the training received by commissioned law enforcement officers;

    (c) Any person who is involved in a convention, showing, demonstration, lecture, or firearms safety course authorized by school authorities in which the firearms of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed;

    (d) Any person while the person is participating in a firearms or air gun competition approved by the school or school district;

    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

    (g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school; or


    (h) Any law enforcement officer of the federal, state, or local government agency.

    (4) Subsections (1)(c) and (d) of this section do not apply to any person who possesses nun-chu-ka sticks, throwing stars, or other dangerous weapons to be used in martial arts classes authorized to be conducted on the school premises.

    (5) Subsection (1)(f)(i) of this section does not apply to any person who possesses a device listed in subsection (1)(f)(i) of this section, if the device is possessed and used solely for the purpose approved by a school for use in a school authorized event, lecture, or activity conducted on the school premises.

    (6) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building.

    (7) "GUN-FREE ZONE" signs shall be posted around school facilities giving warning of the prohibition of the possession of firearms on school grounds.

    According to (1)(a), you may not bring a firearm on the school's property. (3) brings in some exemptions to (1).
    (3)(e) Allows those who possess a WA CPL to carry as long as they are picking up or dropping off a student.
    (3)(f) Allows those who do AND do not to have a CPL to have them "secured within an attended vehicle" or "concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle" while conducting legitimate business. That kind of leaves it open as to having a reason since you don't have to be picking up or dropping off a student.
    (3)(g) Again allows you to have your firearm in your vehicle, though it says unloaded for this one.

    Now the fun one. (6) decided when you may carry your firearm IN the school's building. It only applies to those carrying under (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h). So those who are "engaged in military, law enforcement, or school district security activities", those who "involved in a convention, showing, demonstration, lecture, or firearms safety course", those who "legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle" and those who are a "law enforcement officer of the federal, state, or local government agency".

    So, from what I've read, you can go anywhere on the premises, excluding the building, as long as meet at least one subsection of subsection (3). I don't see how they could restrict you to your vehicle by what the law states.


    Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm new to this "examining the laws" thing. =D

    *Edit*
    Also, does (6) mean that as long as I leave a firearm in my vehicle, as stated in (3)(f), I can carry ANOTHER firearm into the school building? I am meeting the needs of (3)(f) so I meet the needs of (6)...
    Last edited by xxx.jakk.xxx; 11-07-2010 at 09:55 PM.
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  7. #7
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    wow!

    that there is some pretty sly reading

    youre on to something,

    i think youre finding too many guns in (f)
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    that there is some pretty sly reading

    youre on to something,

    i think youre finding too many guns in (f)
    The only other way I see it making sense is if you park inside of the school... Hopefully you only do this when they have actual indoor parking areas and not just by 4x4ing into the cafeteria.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

    "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Benjamin Franklin

    “It’s always open season on criminals in Mason County, and there’s no bag limit.” Sen. Tim Sheldon (D)

    Molōn labe!

  9. #9
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    Just tell em you are filming a new movie with a very exciting car chase/shootout scene! Then ask who wants to volunteer to be extras. Drive your car (probably something like a smart car or mini cooper would work good here) down the hall and film your movie!
    Last edited by devildoc5; 11-07-2010 at 10:23 PM.
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
    So we shall flow a river forth to Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
    E nomine Patri, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti."


    "If the rest of the world says: 'War,' I can only say: 'Very well. I do not want war, but no one, however peaceable, can live in peace if his neighbor intends to force a quarrel.'" - Adolf Hitler...

  10. #10
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  11. #11
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    (7) "GUN-FREE ZONE" signs shall be posted around school facilities giving warning of the prohibition of the possession of firearms on school grounds.

    But it really isn't a gun free zone, as any person with a permit may carry on the grounds while picking up or dropping off a student... they just can't carry INTO THE BUILDING!

    I need another head banging the brick wall icon AGAIN!
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 11-07-2010 at 10:40 PM.

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