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justified self defense shooting

JoeSparky

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seems like a "little" blame to go around. Why get out of the car to start with? Now after retreating to your car as I think I heard to read in the posted article--- that fits for "DISENGAGEMENT" with the shooter's intent to end the conflict and he is "surrounded" by several angry persons one with a bottle....

No charges filed by prosecutor..... seems like he was justified in his actions.

None of the family of the person who lost his life seem to claim that THEY WERE ON SCENE, But the shooter/surviver did have 2 family members present... I am sure they were interviewed by LEO's ( OK, Assumption here, but given the circumstances it would be a HUGE failure on the investigators to not interview them).

Now come the civil charges....
 

malignity

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Ah yes. I remember hearing this story before.

Good for the man who defended himself. If you make poor choices, you live with the consequences. Multiple assailants can easily kill a man. One of them had a weapon. Clear cut. Sure the family may not agree, HOWEVER, their father made a poor choice (apparently more than once, being previously charged with assault) and had consequences that followed. Don't be mad at the shooter, be mad at the person that made the poor choice to begin with.
 

Bailenforcer

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The thug that was shot was arrested previously for assault with intent to murder and they claim hes an angel? Am I missing something?


saw this story on fox2 website -

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/new...ce:-detroit-man-cleared-in-road-rage-shooting

heated words at traffic light - drivers both got out and a fight started. CPL carrier shot and killed assailant after he said he was attacked by multiple assailants. former prosecutor put it well in news video.
 

DrTodd

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seems like a "little" blame to go around. Why get out of the car to start with? Now after retreating to your car as I think I heard to read in the posted article--- that fits for "DISENGAGEMENT" with the shooter's intent to end the conflict and he is "surrounded" by several angry persons one with a bottle....

No charges filed by prosecutor..... seems like he was justified in his actions.

None of the family of the person who lost his life seem to claim that THEY WERE ON SCENE, But the shooter/surviver did have 2 family members present... I am sure they were interviewed by LEO's ( OK, Assumption here, but given the circumstances it would be a HUGE failure on the investigators to not interview them).

Now come the civil charges....

Nope.
A person who used force as permitted by Michigan law is immune from BOTH criminal prosecution and from any civil action for the use of that force.

Part of Michigan's "Stand Your Ground Law", Public Act No. 314 of 2006, states:

Sec. 2922b. An individual who uses deadly force or force other than deadly force in self-defense or in defense of another individual in compliance with section 2 of the self-defense act is immune from civil liability for damages caused to either of the following by the use of that deadly force or force other than deadly force:
(a) The individual against whom the use of deadly force or force other than deadly force is authorized.
(b) Any individual claiming damages arising out of injury to or the death of the individual described in subdivision (a), based upon his or her relationship to that individual.
 

DrTodd

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The thug that was shot was arrested previously for assault with intent to murder and they claim hes an angel? Am I missing something?

Was thinking EXACTLY the same thing. I liked how immediately after the newsreader mentioned that little bit of information, the daughter states: "He was a good dad..."
I also had to appreciate the great acting skills that the wife/girlfirend of the one who died had to have to actually state that the shooter needed counseling because he shot her spouse/boyfriend while the shooter's children were in the car. What the #$%# was he going to do... let someone possibly hurt his kids? I would be much more willing to take a beating with my children absent than have them present.

The real question is why A GROUP OF ADULTS (the attackers) would continue the attack, surrounding a person in their car, when there are children present. Her spouse/boyfriend was culpable on that issue alone. Her criticism of the CPL holder seems much more applicable to her significant other than the person she is attempting to blame.

I hate to say it because usually I think something like this could have been avoided if either person would have just dropped their ego a little, but good riddance. It appears the CPL holder attempted to leave, kids were in the car, and the cpl holder was outnumbered...imho, the person who was shot did everything possible to have a few chunks of lead sent in his direction... and the shooter obliged him. Case closed.
 

Bailenforcer

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Here's a problem I see that has yet to be addressed.

I will first take a real life experience of my own back in the late 1980's

I was followed by a vehicle with 4 college aged punks. I ignored them as I figured they would get bored following me. I was wrong. This started at 12 and Van Dyke in Warren. I lived not far from 9 mile and Hoover back then. Heading home I realized they were still following me and had to make a decision to NOT ho directly home, as I didn't need them knowing where I lived if they were as stupid as I eventually found out they were. I took a detour into Detroit's 8 Mile and Hoover/Groesbeck industrial area hoping they would break off and maybe I was being overly paranoid. I passed a buddies home which I had hoped was home but he wasn't so I circled the blocks and they were now closing in on me fast. I could hear threats shouted and one morons threw beer bottle at my car. They finally started to literally tail gate me to the point that if I stopped I knew they would jump from their car and assault me. I made a turn on an unfamiliar street and found out it was a dead end with no sign saying it was. Near the end of that street I quickly negotiated a 180 facing them. All they could see is my headlights. all 4 morons exited the car with baseball bats and one idiot had a gulf club and the last had a tire iron. As they approached I warned them to leave or else. Two morons coming running at me then suddenly stopped as they saw my Colt 70 series Government Model staring at them. They broke and back peddled screaming he has a gun. I warned them to drop their weapons or I would start shooting and they complied. I let them leave instead of risk the need to shoot them in case they got even more stupid.
The Police did stop them and they were arrested after a quick call from me.

Now how do we know this man with his children didn't have a similar situation where standing his ground was better than trying to flee and risk someone ramming his car? We don't!

He may have had no better option than stand his ground. The claims words were exchanged could be him telling them to leave him alone or something legitimate. We don't know. Fact is the dead man is a known thug who has tried to MURDER someone in the past, he has a known record of violence, so why do people Monday Morning Quarterback the man who defended his children?

I agree with DR Todd, I might stand and fight when alone, but never with innocents in my protection, I will do anything to protect them PERIOD!

I grow weary of that group on this site who always take the anti gunners mentality or side, no matter how messed up it is.


Was thinking EXACTLY the same thing. I liked how immediately after the newsreader mentioned that little bit of information, the daughter states: "He was a good dad..."
I also had to appreciate the great acting skills that the wife/girlfirend of the one who died had to have to actually state that the shooter needed counseling because he shot her spouse/boyfriend while the shooter's children were in the car. What the #$%# was he going to do... let someone possibly hurt his kids? I would be much more willing to take a beating with my children absent than have them present.

The real question is why A GROUP OF ADULTS (the attackers) would continue the attack, surrounding a person in their car, when there are children present. Her spouse/boyfriend was culpable on that issue alone. Her criticism of the CPL holder seems much more applicable to her significant other than the person she is attempting to blame.

I hate to say it because usually I think something like this could have been avoided if either person would have just dropped their ego a little, but good riddance. It appears the CPL holder attempted to leave, kids were in the car, and the cpl holder was outnumbered...imho, the person who was shot did everything possible to have a few chunks of lead sent in his direction... and the shooter obliged him. Case closed.
 

Bailenforcer

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It is OBVIOUS you never worked in a Law Enforcement venue.

The car is called the coffin for good reason.

I see no blame on the part of the defender. I was not there and I was NOT surrounded at a traffic light by a mob. If I was I would exit my car to engage them as sitting in that car is a death sentence. One had a bottle and how would you or I know some were not armed with guns? We will never know at that time, until it was too late. Seems to me he did what was his only option to get ready to defend instead of be a victim.

I disagree with DR Todd I think the girlfriends acting job was awfully fake. :p


seems like a "little" blame to go around. Why get out of the car to start with? Now after retreating to your car as I think I heard to read in the posted article--- that fits for "DISENGAGEMENT" with the shooter's intent to end the conflict and he is "surrounded" by several angry persons one with a bottle....

No charges filed by prosecutor..... seems like he was justified in his actions.

None of the family of the person who lost his life seem to claim that THEY WERE ON SCENE, But the shooter/surviver did have 2 family members present... I am sure they were interviewed by LEO's ( OK, Assumption here, but given the circumstances it would be a HUGE failure on the investigators to not interview them).

Now come the civil charges....
 

Bailenforcer

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1+

We really don't know of one may have had a hidden knife or gun.


Ah yes. I remember hearing this story before.

Good for the man who defended himself. If you make poor choices, you live with the consequences. Multiple assailants can easily kill a man. One of them had a weapon. Clear cut. Sure the family may not agree, HOWEVER, their father made a poor choice (apparently more than once, being previously charged with assault) and had consequences that followed. Don't be mad at the shooter, be mad at the person that made the poor choice to begin with.
 

malignity

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The guy apparently had a champagne bottle. Good enough for me.

See, the thing is, even without the bottle, the disparity of force is very significant here. Multiple unarmed assailants can easily kill one man... the bottle was just 'frosting on the cake' so to speak imo.
 
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JoeSparky

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It is OBVIOUS you never worked in a Law Enforcement venue.

The car is called the coffin for good reason.

I see no blame on the part of the defender. I was not there and I was NOT surrounded at a traffic light by a mob. If I was I would exit my car to engage them as sitting in that car is a death sentence. One had a bottle and how would you or I know some were not armed with guns? We will never know at that time, until it was too late. Seems to me he did what was his only option to get ready to defend instead of be a victim.

I disagree with DR Todd I think the girlfriends acting job was awfully fake. :p

Me thinks I've failed to communicate here...

As I understand it... BOTH drivers exit vehicles, words are exchanged, ONE driver returns to his vehicle, OTHER driver and occupants of his vehicle continue with aggressive actions, Driver who has returned to car uses a lethal weapon to stop the continued attack against him.

My initial blame sharing here is WHY GET OUT OF THE CAR IN THE FIRST PLACE IF YOU HAVE A WAY TO LEAVE THE AREA. Article and news report don't give us much info here. Now IF I have no way to leave in the vehicle I would have left the vehicle and taken my firearm with me in the FIRST PLACE-- not to be an agressor but to have ALL my defensive tools immediately available to me IF THEY WERE TO BE NEEDED!
 

NHCGRPR45

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Chesterfield Township, MI
seems like a "little" blame to go around. Why get out of the car to start with? Now after retreating to your car as I think I heard to read in the posted article--- that fits for "DISENGAGEMENT" with the shooter's intent to end the conflict and he is "surrounded" by several angry persons one with a bottle....

No charges filed by prosecutor..... seems like he was justified in his actions.

None of the family of the person who lost his life seem to claim that THEY WERE ON SCENE, But the shooter/surviver did have 2 family members present... I am sure they were interviewed by LEO's ( OK, Assumption here, but given the circumstances it would be a HUGE failure on the investigators to not interview them).

Now come the civil charges....

the family can't sue, it was ruled justified.

our castle doctrie allows us to defend ourselves with no duty to retreat, and no fear of civil suit.

yup!

The thug that was shot was arrested previously for assault with intent to murder and they claim hes an angel? Am I missing something?

yes, you are. i am CERTAIN he felt really, really bad about it.:shocker:

The guy apparently had a champagne bottle. Good enough for me.

See, the thing is, even without the bottle, the disparity of force is very significant here. Multiple unarmed assailants can easily kill one man... the bottle was just 'frosting on the cake' so to speak imo.

indeed, against multiple BG even if they were not "armed" they all still had enough weapons to easily maim, kill or otherwise cause great bodily harm, and i also agree with another poster i think it was bail?? that said my BS meter hits an all time low when i have my daughter with me. anytime i have her with me and someone starts to bother me about anything the FIRST thing i say is "i have my child with me, and you are frightening her, leave me alone." in a very no BS voice. there aren't many who would continue with an engagement after that, most of us understand about wanting to protect or children and most common sense people will back down or stop what they are doing when confronted with continuing an assault with children present.

any that do are a special breed of a**hat.
 

stainless1911

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Me thinks I've failed to communicate here...

As I understand it... BOTH drivers exit vehicles, words are exchanged, ONE driver returns to his vehicle, OTHER driver and occupants of his vehicle continue with aggressive actions, Driver who has returned to car uses a lethal weapon to stop the continued attack against him.

My initial blame sharing here is WHY GET OUT OF THE CAR IN THE FIRST PLACE IF YOU HAVE A WAY TO LEAVE THE AREA. Article and news report don't give us much info here. Now IF I have no way to leave in the vehicle I would have left the vehicle and taken my firearm with me in the FIRST PLACE-- not to be an agressor but to have ALL my defensive tools immediately available to me IF THEY WERE TO BE NEEDED!

Simple, the CPL holder had the good sense to recognise that the situation would continue to escelate, and two things would likely happen if he attempted to leave. 1, the CPL holder likely did not want to initiate a chase that would endanger himself, his family, and the public. 2, He would lose control, and tactical advantage, because the agressor would then be behind him, following him. The advantage in a car chase, always goes to the following vehicle, the following vehicle, has a clear path, and knows that if the lead car has made a turn at a given speed, then the follower can likewise make the corner. Also, the follower can easily see what is coming, the lead car has to make it up as it comes. Any trained driver, ie. police officer would know this.

Kudos to the CPL holder to have the presence of mind during stress to see this coming.
 
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kryptonian

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i agree with everybody who pointed out the whole get out of vehicle escalation. would he have gotten out of the car without his weapon? i'm sure that is a big factor in the prosecutors review of this. they seemed to have cleared this case pretty quick. i guess the daughter in the story thought that the CPL holder should have sat there and allow her dad and relatives to severly beat him unchallenged. story didn't say but i bet that shot took the fight right out of everybody else there. i'm also sure the CPL holder had to hold off the others at gunpoint until the police arrived. for the people that choose violence as a method to solve their adversity i guess this will thin the herd.
 

Bailenforcer

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Having an angry mob in vehicles following you is not a defensible situation, therefore he was right to face to attackers as opposed to fleeing and having his weakest side (backside) to their attacks. In my situation when it became obvious it was going to escalate so I got out of that rolling coffin to stand my ground. It worked for me and no one was hurt, sadly the MOB was out for blood, and sadly got what they wanted.......Blood. They didn't figure it might backfire on them.

The only one I feel for is the Father who had to make that horrible decision and the child who had to witness it.


Me thinks I've failed to communicate here...

As I understand it... BOTH drivers exit vehicles, words are exchanged, ONE driver returns to his vehicle, OTHER driver and occupants of his vehicle continue with aggressive actions, Driver who has returned to car uses a lethal weapon to stop the continued attack against him.

My initial blame sharing here is WHY GET OUT OF THE CAR IN THE FIRST PLACE IF YOU HAVE A WAY TO LEAVE THE AREA. Article and news report don't give us much info here. Now IF I have no way to leave in the vehicle I would have left the vehicle and taken my firearm with me in the FIRST PLACE-- not to be an agressor but to have ALL my defensive tools immediately available to me IF THEY WERE TO BE NEEDED!
 
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DanM

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seems like a "little" blame to go around. Why get out of the car to start with?

While the facts of this incident are yet to be sorted out and proven, the sharing of blame does not start with someone getting out of their car. Often, exiting your vehicle is actually tactically superior to remaining seated in it, if you are in a situation of a potential threat approaching and those are your two choices. What matters, as far as the "blame" game, is what you do after exiting your vehicle.

Believe me, if I'm in my car, sense a potential threat approaching, and my choices are to stay seated in the car, practically immobile, or exit it and have 360 degree mobility while I further assess the situation and respond accordingly, I am going to get out of the car. No one can rightfully "blame" me for anything just based on that. Now, if (after exiting) I do something that rightfully give me a share of the "blame", then so be it.

You need to think through a little better the point at which you feel it is appropriate to start assigning blame.
 
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JoeSparky

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While the facts of this incident are yet to be sorted out and proven, the sharing of blame does not start with someone getting out of their car. Often, exiting your vehicle is actually tactically superior to remaining seated in it, if you are in a situation of a potential threat approaching and those are your two choices. What matters, as far as the "blame" game, is what you do after exiting your vehicle.

Believe me, if I'm in my car, sense a potential threat approaching, and my choices are to stay seated in the car, practically immobile, or exit it and have 360 degree mobility while I further assess the situation and respond accordingly, I am going to get out of the car. No one can rightfully "blame" me for anything just based on that. Now, if (after exiting) I do something that rightfully give me a share of the "blame", then so be it.

You need to think through a little better the point at which you feel it is appropriate to start assigning blame.

The assumption being made by some posting on this thread is the the surviving driver leaving the car initially HAD NO OTHER OPTIONS. And this is my point... NOTHING in the story yet tells me that the driver was "trapped" in his car with no way to DRIVE away and leave the scene INSTEAD OF GETTING OUT OF THE CAR. GIVEN THE OPTION OF LEAVING THE SCENE, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE WISER THING TO DO--- Now, if he was UNABLE to leave the scene/area, I agree with the other options.
 
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TheQ

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It is OBVIOUS you never worked in a Law Enforcement venue.

The car is called the coffin for good reason.

I see no blame on the part of the defender. I was not there and I was NOT surrounded at a traffic light by a mob. If I was I would exit my car to engage them as sitting in that car is a death sentence. One had a bottle and how would you or I know some were not armed with guns? We will never know at that time, until it was too late. Seems to me he did what was his only option to get ready to defend instead of be a victim.

I disagree with DR Todd I think the girlfriends acting job was awfully fake. :p

My Solstice GXP does 150. I-696, which is near 10 and Van Dyke is 4 lanes wide. Let them try and catch me...

If I got suspicious of being followed I'd call 911 as I hightailed it to the closest freeway to lose them. If my fiancée was in the car, she'd be handling the 911 call.

This is just how I would handle such a situation. Your milage may vary.
 

VW_Factor

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We may not know all the facts here, and we can speculate all we want..

However..

I would be willing to bet that investigators got the information that we don't have. Just sayin.

It is hard for us to figure if he was justified or not, because we don't know what the investigators know.
 
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