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Lawyer jailed over pledge refusal in court

eye95

eye95

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MamaLiberty said:
Speak for yourself. I'm not part of your "we."

I own myself and owe no "allegiance" to the republic or anything else. I may choose to associate, but I don't owe anyone or anything involuntarily.

Nobody can determine that for anyone but themselves.
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I did not say I was speaking for you, so keep your snot to yourself.

The "we" refers to people reciting the pledge (which I do regularly with profound and unapologetic meaning). I am pointing out that the wording indicates a pledge not only to the symbol, but the to the thing symbolized: our Republic.

Your snottiness was most unwelcome. I would ask you to be more civil in the future when addressing me. I don't brook behavior such as you just demonstrated. I prefer to spend time with folks who participate in respectful relationships.
 
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Phssthpok

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Whatever happened to "...liberty and justice for all."?

Forced pledges have zero meaning, and having no meaning would be false. So...said judge wants to FORCE (as in...the opposite of a free action) said attny. to make a FALSE pledge in his courtroom? Go judge.:uhoh:

I will not swear fealty to a bit of fabric.

eye95 said:
*sigh*

We are also pledging allegiance "to the Republic for which it stands," not just the flag itself.

Moving on.
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That republic no longer exists. It has mutated into something akin to what many of our forefathers fought against. The fact that this situation even occurred is proof enough.
 
eye95

eye95

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Phssthpok said:
That republic no longer exists. It has mutated into something akin to what many of our forefathers fought against. The fact that this situation even occurred is proof enough.
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Our Republic continues to exist. It never has been perfect and is arguably much less Liberty-oriented than when it was founded. However, it still is a Republic and the best government on Earth.

I see hyperbole as more a danger to the Republic than anything this judge has done.
 
X

Xulld

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eye95 said:
There is a persistent myth that some folks have power that cannot be questioned. That situation does not exist in this country. There is not one person who is not answerable for their actions to somebody.

And the ultimate somebody is We the People.

I am not satisfied that it has been established that the judge overstepped his bounds. However, if he required a recitation of the pledge by someone forced to be present (and not just standing out of respect for others or waiting outside the courtroom until the pledge has been completed), then he overstepped his bounds.

A judge has nearly absolute, but decidedly not absolute, authority in his courtroom.

Some folks need to examine their axioms about the power people in authority in this country have.
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Well said.


eye95 said:
Our Republic continues to exist. It never has been perfect and is arguably much less Liberty-oriented than when it was founded. However, it still is a Republic and the best government on Earth.

I see hyperbole as more a danger to the Republic than anything this judge has done.
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I completely agree. Heck I would be hard pressed to remember every word of the pledge its just been so long, and heck even worse if put on the spot. I am very patriotic, but not so much I would blindly follow anyone who claimed patriotism as a motive. Reason always before emotion.

This seems to me an unreasonable stance the judge took. Also quit divisive to call someone out like that. I wish we had a good accounting of the story, maybe the transcript if it was running ect.
 
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Daylen

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it took me my whole life until this year to truly understand the Pledge. Now that I do, I will no longer say it for I despise it almost in entirety. A better pledge or oath would be to the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, or the ideals of the Articles of Confederation. The Pledge is progressive drek disguised as patriotism.
 
sudden valley gunner

sudden valley gunner

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Daylen said:
it took me my whole life until this year to truly understand the Pledge. Now that I do, I will no longer say it for I despise it almost in entirety. A better pledge or oath would be to the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, or the ideals of the Articles of Confederation. The Pledge is progressive drek disguised as patriotism.
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Bingo!!!!!!

Ever heard of the Nadir period of United States?
 
The Donkey

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Dreamer said:
I'm an Eagle Scout. I fly the US and NC state flag in front of my house every day (weather permitting). I stand and place my hand over my heart during the National Anthem at sporting events and public rallies. I've said the "Pledge of Allegiance" thousands of times in my life, and do so with pride.

All that said, I personally believe there isn't enough tar, feathers, and rails in the state of Mississippi with which to cover and on which to ride Chancery Judge Talmadge Littlejohn out of town.

The 1A does not stop at the door of a Court.

Judges who view their courtrooms as personal fiefdoms are not worthy of their robes, and should be removed from the bench and disbarred. I might not agree with this attorney's position on the Pledge, but given this judge's attitude, I may well have done the same thing, and proudly worn the chains.

I wonder if this attorney is well-versed in the filing procedure for Federal 1983 suits?
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Alas. "Immunity" shows its ugly face again. Judges are absolutely immune from 1983 suits.

But that doesn't mean that civil contempt orders are not appealable. If Littlejohn had not realeased the lawyer, he could have gone to the appeals court on an emergency basis, and gotten himself released.

Blatant idiocy like this is also a good way for a judge to come to the attention of the local judicial disabilities committee.
 
Old Grump

Old Grump

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American Judge in an American court judging people with American laws based on the constitution sets standards for his courtroom. The flag and the pledge represents that ideal. If a lawyer sworn to uphold those ideals can't respect them with a few words and a minutes worth of time than how am I to expect him to believe in or respect anything. He isn't a lawyer I want representing me. There are a lot of courts where the American rule of law and respect for our republic is not acknowledged. the lawyer is free to go there and practice.

Quatros centavos from a dinosaur, still old and American till I die.
 
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The Donkey

The Donkey

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Old Grump said:
American Judge in an American court judging people with American laws based on the constitution sets standards for his courtroom. The flag and the pledge represents that ideal. If a lawyer sworn to uphold those ideals can't respect them with a few words and a minutes worth of time than how am I to expect him to believe in or respect anything. He isn't a lawyer I want representing me. There are a lot of courts where the American rule of law and respect for our republic is not acknowledged. the lawyer is free to go there and practice.

Quatros centavos from a dinosaur, still old and American till I die.
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An American Judge in an American court judging people with American laws is supposed to follow the US Supreme Court precedents which have long settled this issue on the side of the lawyer who did not want to recite the pledge.

If a judge who is sworn to uphold the law cannot follow the clear commands of the Constitution on this -- as interpreted by the Supreme Court -- he has no business being a judge.

You are, of course, free not to employ whichever lawyers you decide to not employ for whichever reasons you want.

So next time you have an initial consultation, be sure to ask your prospective attorney about his/her feelings on the pledge of allegiance.

That should really start things off on the right foot.
 
sudden valley gunner

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So America was so wrong not having a pledge of allegiance written by a socialist for the first 100 years?

Funny thing is too the original salute was same style as the Heil Hitler salute maybe we should bring that back.

In a 1943 case SCOTUS ruled "compulsory unification of opinion" violates the First Amendment
 
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Old Grump

Old Grump

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The Donkey said:
So next time you have an initial consultation, be sure to ask your prospective attorney about his/her feelings on the pledge of allegiance.

That should really start things off on the right foot.
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Works for me. Just like the salute is a sign of respect. So is the pledge and a lawyer who doesn't respect our flag and our country isn't about to be able to give his whole hearted efforts to defend his client because he doesn't respect our system. Let him go work someplace that he fits in better.

By the way the swastika and the salute that the Nazis usurped for their own aren't evil, both are ancient symbols and had nothing to do with that little sexually depraved vegetarian fruitcake who believed in horoscopes and a magic talisman. The association with him is unfortunate because the swastika is really a sign of the sun, of power, of life.

More people should be saluting each other respectfully instead of giving each other half the peace sign would be a good start. Respect yourself, respect your country, your friends, your neighbors and the strangers you see on the street. Then this will be a much nicer world to live in.
 
sudden valley gunner

sudden valley gunner

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Yet the salute was derived from Imperial Rome, and then Napaleon's dictatorship. And our current pledge was developed by a socialist pushing nationalism which results in more federal control. And it was another socialist, communist, progressive that changed the salute to the current one we have now FDR.

I agree about the swastika though in itself has been used varying cultures for millienium but has nothing to do with this discussion.

I respect peoples religions even when it is statism and nationalism but would disagree that a lawyer who doesn't salute the flag make a good defense for you. I think the opposite might be true, If I am in court fighting the state, Gov. etc. he might be the exact lawyer I want.

I find it funny how people love the constitution and bill of rights but only when it applies to their own limited viewpoint, this is why this fake two party system we have needs to go, I think Republicans and Democrats should go back together to the same party they derived and split from and a true constitutional liberty loving party should be their competition.
 
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Daylen

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sudden valley gunner said:
Yet the salute was derived from Imperial Rome, and then Napaleon's dictatorship. And our current pledge was developed by a socialist pushing nationalism which results in more federal control. And it was another socialist, communist, progressive that changed the salute to the current one we have now FDR.

I agree about the swastika though in itself has been used varying cultures for millienium but has nothing to do with this discussion.

I respect peoples religions even when it is statism and nationalism but would disagree that a lawyer who doesn't salute the flag make a good defense for you. I think the opposite might be true, If I am in court fighting the state, Gov. etc. he might be the exact lawyer I want.

I find it funny how people love the constitution and bill of rights but only when it applies to their own limited viewpoint, this is why this fake two party system we have needs to go, I think Republicans and Democrats should go back together to the same party they derived and split from and a true constitutional liberty loving party should be their competition.
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Well there were many progressive republicans booted this year. maybe we'll eventually see all progressives booted from the republican party.
 
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jsimmons

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zack991 said:
I applaud the Judge, The Pledge of Allegiance is a statement of patriotic loyalty and shows respect to those who gave their all to protect this nation One important angle for atheists to remember when opposing the Pledge is that the words "under God" were added during the Cold War, during the McCarthy Era of anti-atheist and anti-Communism. The anti-Communist movement was always an anti-atheist movement, as McCarthy himself declared when launching his "war": Because this wording ("under God") was intended specifically to endorse McCarthy's anti-atheist sentiments, people usually have a very easy time opposing any requirement to recite the pledge. I can understand people whom don't want to say under God is fine by me, but don't just sit there like a bump on a long and slap the faces of all those who fought for your right to act like an "donkey".
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Wrong. Reciting the pledge is a voluntary act and cannot be forced. It's called freedom of speech (or lack of speech in this case). It's like forcing someone to pray. Freedom of religion means you don't necessarily have to.
 
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diesel556

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eye95 said:
Of course we have an official language. English.

Our Founding Documents were written in English. Laws are passed in English. Regulations are written in English. Highway signs are in English. Court proceedings are conducted and published in English. Etc.

We just don't have the stones to expect folks who come here to adopt the language, and we bend over backwards to accommodate them to our own detriment.

I picked up a box in the BX a few months ago and had a heckuva time figuring out what was in it. Between the four languages on the box and the 200 or so warnings and legal disclaimers, there wasn't much room for the product name!

If the discussion continues to that point, I'll be happy to link my English official language proposed constitutional amendment. I think it actually increases Liberty while fostering a common language.

BTW, we talked about the government's responsibility in setting standards of weights and measures in another thread and the importance of being able to communicate using agreed-upon terms. What greater standard of agreed-upon terms is there than an entire language?
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Actually, you're only partially correct. You're points all support the fact that English is the de facto language of this country. We certainly do not have an official language federally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States#Language
 
eye95

eye95

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diesel556 said:
Actually, you're only partially correct. You're points all support the fact that English is the de facto language of this country. We certainly do not have an official language federally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States#Language
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There isn't a law??? I am astonished. I didn't know that. Had it not been for your post, I would have wandered the wilderness for years in abject ignorance.

We have an official language in fact, though not in law. That was the point of my post which seems to have escaped notice. Folks are trying to change that with law. The defense is to make it official by law. I propose we do it via a constitutional amendment.
 
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diesel556

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eye95 said:
There isn't a law??? I am astonished. I didn't know that. Had it not been for your post, I would have wandered the wilderness for years in abject ignorance.

We have an official language in fact, though not in law. That was the point of my post which seems to have escaped notice. Folks are trying to change that with law. The defense is to make it official by law. I propose we do it via a constitutional amendment.
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I understood your point, but thought that some clarification would be helpful to others. Sorry if it came off the wrong way. Also, an amendment such as the one you put forth has been proposed in just about every session:

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_lang.html
 
eye95

eye95

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Five years ago on another board, I posted the following proposed amendment. I prefer it to the more simple versions proposed because it addresses the primary objections to an official language. It accounts for places like Puerto Rico where another language is more prevalent. And it provides a balance between States' Rights and the Rights of the People.

English is the official language of the United States and of every State and territory of the United States. In specific, the federal government will do no business in languages other than English and private entities cannot be expected to use (or be held liable for not using) any language other than English. Furthermore, all government proceedings will be conducted in English, including court proceedings. Additionally, students attending schools that are both publicly funded and publicly operated have a right to take English-only versions of every offered non-foreign-language course.

The following exceptions apply:

1. In any case where a lawyer would be provided at no cost to someone facing legal action from the government, the government will also provide to non-English speakers a translator at no cost, paid and approved by the court, but found by the defendant, this amendment or any other laws establishing official languages, notwithstanding.

2. States and territories may adopt English and a second language as official languages. If a State or territory does so, then:

a. The federal government will conduct its business in that State or territory in both languages with the State or territory bearing any additional cost. The State or territory may require all government and private business (including ballot printing) be conducted in English and the one other official language, but not any other languages. Private entities can be held liable for not conducting business in that State or territory in both official languages, but not for not conducting it in any other languages.

b. Publicly funded and publicly operated schools must provide all non-foreign-language courses in both official languages (the choice of language being the students' and not the schools') and classes must be provided to raise students' proficiency in English to a level where they can be successful in English-only classes.

c. If a State or territory adopts official languages other than either (1) only English or (2) English and only one other language (or if it does not adopt any official language), then English will be the only official language and none of the provisions in a. and b. above will apply.
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