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Thread: Local PD Smith and Wesson story revieled.

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    Local PD Smith and Wesson story revieled.

    After talking to Officials in XXXXX city in Metro Detroit about the failures with the M&P this is the story.

    XXXXX PD was having failure to feed problems at a rate of every fifth round. After just over 400 to 500 rounds the failures increased to a failure to feed every 3rd round and even every other round.

    When Smith & Wesson heard of this they invited the Chief of Police and range officers to Smith & Wesson. At the factory S&W took right M&P's right out of production and out of 16 weapons 11 failed immediately.

    The city has ordered from Glock and canceled the S&W order.

    I am told the problems get far worse with rounds fired and it seems that 500 and more rounds is the approximate number where things start going south. Talking to armorers I am finding that polishing feed ramps and the standard fit and polish techniques are not fixing the problems.

    The above are facts as far as I can demonstrate them, I was asked to not name names for now because this is pretty fresh information.

    Now here is my subjective opinion: Being a weapons dealer for Government and Police primarily for about two decades I have found that Smith & Wesson always had a problem with their Auto pistols. Starting with the S&W model 59 and 39's. Many improvements from the 2 digit models (39, 59) to the 3 digit models (459) to the 4 digit (4507, 1006) saw some improvements but never any real world reliability. My 1006 was gone over by myself several times to get it reliable, and still I carried a S&W Custom Model 29 3 inch as a backup. ( I Owned 6 Model 29's)

    I know many have them here and swear by them, but I know from experience most no competitive, or non Law Enforcement gun owners rarely hit 500 rounds fired in a months time with a weapon, and dare I say maybe 1 out of 10,000 might get close. Yea I know some will makes silly claims of 1000 rounds fired in 3 days but I know the smell of BS when I smell or read it, so spare the arm chair commando stories. I shot in national competition and know what range time is.

    I would warn the M&P owners to get some serious range time in and get over 400 rounds in that weapon and see if yours is one of those that fails. And NO it doesn't take 500 rounds to fail, that was when the failures were off the hook as they say. The factory tour proved that brand new weapons were failing in a few rounds shot. There is an obvious quality control issue here and don't wait till one fails you while defending your family from a group of armed thugs, as then it's way too late for you.
    Oh and please spare me the Macho pride bull$****. It is not your fault you bought a weapon that fails so it does not reflect on your manhood. Many of the defenders of certain brands act as if they were being called out for having a shortcoming in their manhood. Remembering man is NOT infallible and what he makes can fail.

    Get range time and see how your favorite brand holds out in a firefight scenario.
    Last edited by Bailenforcer; 11-09-2010 at 08:28 AM.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Regular Member Recoil88's Avatar
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    Wink

    Well now that i read your post i definetly plan on some range time soon. I have only fired 170 rounds through my M&P 40c so far and it has not miss fed once. But i will take your advice and next time i hit the range i will put at least 200 rounds through it and see if anything happens. Thanks for the information.
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    First time I heard of ANY such troubles. Is this commonly reported? Is there any veracity to this report from "XXXXX city?"
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Just curious, has S&W offered this department a refund? I would hope after they saw guns coming off the line doing the same thing that they did something to make the department whole again.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    This is not good at all....

    I sure hope S&W get their heads out of their rectums and solve this.

    I'm glad the 4 that I bought run like champs.

    BTW: 1000 in 3 days is nothing. Typically when I'm training I will shoot 6-700 rounds in a day.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    I'm glad that the 2 I have run like champs (9/9c). I had an M&P 45, but traded it for a Springfield 1911.

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    Between myself and others in the family, we have 5 M&P's, 2-9's, 2-9C's, and a 45. None of us can remember a single failure. I have about 1500 rounds (maybe more, as I don't keep records of that), and all of the others probably have twice that through them. We bought them all a couple of years ago. Maybe it's a problem with a new supplier?

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    The story comes from someone with a proven track record of getting it right the first time.

    Detroit officers are also complaining about exactly the same issues. I am told in two shoot out scenarios the weapons jammed, and possible more but we will wait till those additional ones are verified.

    I have heard of these problems but only previously as scuttlebutt between officers. Now I am getting real information.

    It would be simple to verify as I have so far. Soon as I get more details I will let people know. I don't want to see anyone die as a result of any failures, this is why I am bringing this up now. I used to be a Smith & Wesson dealer so I hold no animosity for them and I have several S&W's I love and will never part with. As many know I have several times talked up that S&W 1006 I used to carry.. And I am still in love with the Model's 29, 19, 586 ect which I still carry. Better there be pressure of S&W to fix it now than loose a well publicized case in court and go bankrupt. I want as many weapons manufacturers as possible this ensures our rights and choices.


    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    First time I heard of ANY such troubles. Is this commonly reported? Is there any veracity to this report from "XXXXX city?"
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Is it perhaps possible if not likely that this is a result of some bad batches?

    It would be so unlikely in my opinion for there to be so many thousands of happy people with privately owned M&P's which are trouble free to have a huge number of them be bad as a coincidence only when used by cops. I've been studying the firearms market since the late 90's, and I can never remember hearing such a thing. A coincidence on this scale is bound to be an error in judgment, more so than a coincidence.

    It would seem S&W must be hurrying production for large orders, but probably only some of the time since this is a hit or miss issue. They have a long and proud history of stealing designs, but this is pretty stupid.
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    the simple fact is this. IF this were a problem outside of this one enclave of operation, we would NOT be hearing of it here first in this one thread.

    Were the words in the op yours, or the words of others? Frankly, the words have a tinge of anti-S&W rhetoric to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    The story comes from someone with a proven track record of getting it right the first time.

    Detroit officers are also complaining about exactly the same issues. I am told in two shoot out scenarios the weapons jammed, and possible more but we will wait till those additional ones are verified.

    I have heard of these problems but only previously as scuttlebutt between officers. Now I am getting real information.

    It would be simple to verify as I have so far. Soon as I get more details I will let people know. I don't want to see anyone die as a result of any failures, this is why I am bringing this up now. I used to be a Smith & Wesson dealer so I hold no animosity for them and I have several S&W's I love and will never part with. As many know I have several times talked up that S&W 1006 I used to carry.. And I am still in love with the Model's 29, 19, 586 ect which I still carry. Better there be pressure of S&W to fix it now than loose a well publicized case in court and go bankrupt. I want as many weapons manufacturers as possible this ensures our rights and choices.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    What I do know is S&W jobs out parts to lowest bidders. This was a huge problem in the first run of M&P AR 15's. I am told S&W is doing more in house as opposed to lowest bidder outsourcing. I am hoping this problem is fixable because I wanted to buy the M&P it feels nice in my hands as opposed to the glock and it's trigger.


    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Is it perhaps possible if not likely that this is a result of some bad batches?

    It would be so unlikely in my opinion for there to be so many thousands of happy people with privately owned M&P's which are trouble free to have a huge number of them be bad as a coincidence only when used by cops. I've been studying the firearms market since the late 90's, and I can never remember hearing such a thing. A coincidence on this scale is bound to be an error in judgment, more so than a coincidence.

    It would seem S&W must be hurrying production for large orders, but probably only some of the time since this is a hit or miss issue. They have a long and proud history of stealing designs, but this is pretty stupid.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    I am told the problems get far worse with rounds fired and it seems that 500 and more rounds is the approximate number where things start going south. Talking to armorers I am finding that polishing feed ramps and the standard fit and polish techniques are not fixing the problems.
    Here you seem to state that the problem starts at about 500 and more rounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer
    Now here is my subjective opinion: Being a weapons dealer for Government and Police primarily for about two decades I have found that Smith & Wesson always had a problem with their Auto pistols. Starting with the S&W model 59 and 39's. Many improvements from the 2 digit models (39, 59) to the 3 digit models (459) to the 4 digit (4507, 1006) saw some improvements but never any real world reliability. My 1006 was gone over by myself several times to get it reliable, and still I carried a S&W Custom Model 29 3 inch as a backup. ( I Owned 6 Model 29's)
    Really? S&W autos have always had a problem? It seems odd that these problems are not common knowledge. Is it a secret?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer
    I know many have them here and swear by them, but I know from experience most no competitive, or non Law Enforcement gun owners rarely hit 500 rounds fired in a months time with a weapon, and dare I say maybe 1 out of 10,000 might get close. Yea I know some will makes silly claims of 1000 rounds fired in 3 days but I know the smell of BS when I smell or read it, so spare the arm chair commando stories. I shot in national competition and know what range time is.
    50 rounds in one day at the range is NOT uncommon at all. When I choose to enter pistol matches, I bring several boxes, and expect about 100-150 rounds expended. If this happens three times in one month, 500 rounds is not out of line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer
    I would warn the M&P owners to get some serious range time in and get over 400 rounds in that weapon and see if yours is one of those that fails. And NO it doesn't take 500 rounds to fail, that was when the failures were off the hook as they say. The factory tour proved that brand new weapons were failing in a few rounds shot. There is an obvious quality control issue here and don't wait till one fails you while defending your family from a group of armed thugs, as then it's way too late for you.
    Oh and please spare me the Macho pride bull$****. It is not your fault you bought a weapon that fails so it does not reflect on your manhood. Many of the defenders of certain brands act as if they were being called out for having a shortcoming in their manhood. Remembering man is NOT infallible and what he makes can fail.

    Get range time and see how your favorite brand holds out in a firefight scenario.
    So first you claim you must shoot 400-500 rounds to fail, then that you DON'T need to?

    Your claims that S&W always had a problem with their autos does seem to indicate a bias; unless you have independent information to share about this brand-specific lack.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    Read my damn post and quit twisting things, you just damaged your credibility.

    Whats so hrd for you see grasp here? Can you read? :

    "XXXXX PD was having failure to feed problems at a rate of every fifth round. After just over 400 to 500 rounds the failures increased to a failure to feed every 3rd round and even every other round."

    I clearly indicted the problem was getting worse after 400 to 500 rounds. You can't be that dumb or can you? It started every 5th round and progressed to every 3rd round once the weapons saw 400 to 500 rounds.

    You painfully stupid attempt at fragment quoting me then misquoting me shows your intent to twist the truth.


    Oh and YES they had many problems starting with the two digit models 59/39 an redesigned them in the 3 digit models 459/359 series and still had problems and went into another redesign to get the 4 digit series like the 4506 ect...Oh but I already enplaned that so why ask me again? Because you are trying to discredit me by fragmented quotes with bull$**** comments with no basis in fact.


    These are not my opinions they are facts as reported to me. And s a Smith and Wesson dealer for just over 20 years I have a bias towards Smith and Wesson not against them as evidenced by my large collection of just over 144 firearms and many Smith and Wesson..

    it seems your bias slip is showing as you have nothing but ignorant remarks and nothing short of insults to back your point up, well you actually never made a point. Sounds like someone stepped on your tail and now your pissy.

    When I get more I will post it.





    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    Here you seem to state that the problem starts at about 500 and more rounds.

    Really? S&W autos have always had a problem? It seems odd that these problems are not common knowledge. Is it a secret?

    50 rounds in one day at the range is NOT uncommon at all. When I choose to enter pistol matches, I bring several boxes, and expect about 100-150 rounds expended. If this happens three times in one month, 500 rounds is not out of line.

    So first you claim you must shoot 400-500 rounds to fail, then that you DON'T need to?

    Your claims that S&W always had a problem with their autos does seem to indicate a bias; unless you have independent information to share about this brand-specific lack.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    I would expect it to be possible for you to reply without being rude. But I could be incorrect.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    Read my damn post and quit twisting things, you just damaged your credibility.

    Whats so hrd for you see grasp here? Can you read? :

    "XXXXX PD was having failure to feed problems at a rate of every fifth round. After just over 400 to 500 rounds the failures increased to a failure to feed every 3rd round and even every other round."

    I clearly indicted the problem was getting worse after 400 to 500 rounds. You can't be that dumb or can you? It started every 5th round and progressed to every 3rd round once the weapons saw 400 to 500 rounds.

    You painfully stupid attempt at fragment quoting me then misquoting me shows your intent to twist the truth.


    Oh and YES they had many problems starting with the two digit models 59/39 an redesigned them in the 3 digit models 459/359 series and still had problems and went into another redesign to get the 4 digit series like the 4506 ect...Oh but I already enplaned that so why ask me again? Because you are trying to discredit me by fragmented quotes with bull$**** comments with no basis in fact.


    These are not my opinions they are facts as reported to me. And s a Smith and Wesson dealer for just over 20 years I have a bias towards Smith and Wesson not against them as evidenced by my large collection of just over 144 firearms and many Smith and Wesson..

    it seems your bias slip is showing as you have nothing but ignorant remarks and nothing short of insults to back your point up, well you actually never made a point. Sounds like someone stepped on your tail and now your pissy.

    When I get more I will post it.
    In reality I did not connect your first comment about every 5th round early on.

    "Me getting pissy?" No, it is me seeing what appeared to be an anti-S&W bias in your original post, and asking you if those were your words or the words of your contact in the org in question. Your responses are way out of line, which does not damage MY credibility.
    Last edited by wrightme; 11-09-2010 at 03:13 PM.
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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    Maybe you should read my post History where I numerous times state my Smith and Wesson likes, before you tell lies about me. My post history is full of refrences to my favorite Smith and Wesson weapons. Telling lies and false accusations and personal attacks on me will not prove anything except your unreasonable bias.


    Now to add I was just told Glock has offered to do a commercial on this situation... We will wait and see if that pans out.

    Many of us already know from a previous thread that Southfield PD did have S&W M&P's so how can you explain the sudden switch? hmmmmmm?

    I am not the only one who posted this information as a matter of fact in another thread I started someone mentioned from people he knows in Southfield PD that this story is in fact true there was in fact many problems. I hope they get fixed soon as I am waiting to switch fro my Browning to a M&P as I said many times I like the feel of it and I know it's more accurate than a Glock.

    See post 4 and 5 in the link below..

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-amp-P-pistols



    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    I would expect it to be possible for you to reply without being rude. But I could be incorrect.




    In reality I did not connect your first comment about every 5th round early on.

    "Me getting pissy?" No, it is me seeing what appeared to be an anti-S&W bias in your original post, and asking you if those were your words or the words of your contact in the org in question. Your responses are way out of line, which does not damage MY credibility.
    Last edited by Bailenforcer; 11-09-2010 at 03:49 PM.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Think you two guys THAT CARRY GUNS IN PUBLIC could chill out a bit?
    Last edited by dougwg; 11-09-2010 at 03:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    Maybe you should read my post History where I numerous times state my Smith and Wesson likes, before you tell lies about me. My post history is full of refrences to my favorite Smith and Wesson weapons. Telling lies and false accusations and personal attacks on me will not prove anything except your unreasonable bias.
    I have not told lies about you. I have not researched your history. I do appreciate your clarifications, and do not appreciate your method of presenting them.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Could everyone that has a wedgie pick it please!!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    After talking to Officials in XXXXX city in Metro Detroit about the failures with the M&P this is the story.

    XXXXX PD was having failure to feed problems at a rate of every fifth round. After just over 400 to 500 rounds the failures increased to a failure to feed every 3rd round and even every other round.

    When Smith & Wesson heard of this they invited the Chief of Police and range officers to Smith & Wesson. At the factory S&W took right M&P's right out of production and out of 16 weapons 11 failed immediately.

    The city has ordered from Glock and canceled the S&W order.

    I am told the problems get far worse with rounds fired and it seems that 500 and more rounds is the approximate number where things start going south. Talking to armorers I am finding that polishing feed ramps and the standard fit and polish techniques are not fixing the problems.
    I have been given the same information about the same city. By more than one officer, and high ranking official within its government. So I have confirmed this, as I did in the other thread, actually, I think I was the one who put the info out their when the question was asked. Anways, I was not asked to not name names, but will not out of respect. This is the internet and things can get out of control way to easy.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Is it perhaps possible if not likely that this is a result of some bad batches?

    It would be so unlikely in my opinion for there to be so many thousands of happy people with privately owned M&P's which are trouble free to have a huge number of them be bad as a coincidence only when used by cops. I've been studying the firearms market since the late 90's, and I can never remember hearing such a thing. A coincidence on this scale is bound to be an error in judgment, more so than a coincidence.

    It would seem S&W must be hurrying production for large orders, but probably only some of the time since this is a hit or miss issue. They have a long and proud history of stealing designs, but this is pretty stupid.
    This is my suspicion. But who cares, why go with a Glock copy cat, when you can just go with Glock? (oh here comes all those critics, and yeah I don't care what YOU carry, but when its for a large department, yes I rather them go with the original.)
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    Yes sir you were the first person who verified what I asked and heard myself and I also followed up and found out about the failed factory tour that blew up in Smith & Wessons face with 11 of 16 brand new weapons failing horridly.

    Why someone would come in here tainting things with smears and false accusations is beyond me, unless her works for them or made the mistake of buying their stock lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    I have been given the same information about the same city. By more than one officer, and high ranking official within its government. So I have confirmed this, as I did in the other thread, actually, I think I was the one who put the info out their when the question was asked. Anways, I was not asked to not name names, but will not out of respect. This is the internet and things can get out of control way to easy.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Do the police buy them off the shelf, e.g. are the guns that the police carry, exactly the same guns that we can buy at Target, or Bass Pro?

    I too, like the feel of an M&P, and was thinking about buying one, now I'm going to wait until this gets sorted out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    Yes sir you were the first person who verified what I asked and heard myself and I also followed up and found out about the failed factory tour that blew up in Smith & Wessons face with 11 of 16 brand new weapons failing horridly.

    Why someone would come in here tainting things with smears and false accusations is beyond me, unless her works for them or made the mistake of buying their stock lol.
    Did the PD bring their Dept. issue ammo with them or did the weapons fail with a standard ammo? I called S&W this morning and asked the service dept. if I should be worried about my newly purchased M&P 9mm. The man I talked to was not privy to the Southfield PD situation and said there has not been a known wide spread failure of the gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    Yes sir you were the first person who verified what I asked and heard myself and I also followed up and found out about the failed factory tour that blew up in Smith & Wessons face with 11 of 16 brand new weapons failing horridly.

    Why someone would come in here tainting things with smears and false accusations is beyond me, unless her works for them or made the mistake of buying their stock lol.
    Speaking of false accusations......
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    This is my suspicion. But who cares, why go with a Glock copy cat, when you can just go with Glock? (oh here comes all those critics, and yeah I don't care what YOU carry, but when its for a large department, yes I rather them go with the original.)
    I vastly prefer M&P ergonomics, but it seems everyone but Glock and a few far less notable folks are interested in building a 10mm. For this reason, Glock remains the king.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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