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Thread: Minneapolis Police spokesman reacts to sight of legally holstered firearm.

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Minneapolis Police spokesman reacts to sight of legally holstered firearm.

    From: http://www.familymattersii.com/press...e_20101105.pdf
    For Immediate Release:

    Minneapolis Police Spokesman Under Criminal Investigation

    MINNEAPOLIS, Minnesota (November 05, 2010) -

    Sergeant William Palmer, the Minneapolis Police Department Spokesman, is under investigation for assaulting Joel Rosenberg, a local self-defense activist, in the waiting
    room of the office of Timothy Dolan, Minneapolis Police Chief this afternoon at approximately 130PM. Rosenberg and his wife, Felicia Herman, had arrived at the office by previous arrangement with the suspect, Palmer, to examine the first of several Minnesota Government Data Practices Act responses that Rosenberg has submitted to the MPD and the City of Minneapolis. In addition to his responsibilities as police spokesman, Palmer is also the MPD's Data Practices Officer.

    ---Moderator Edited--
    (11) RESPECT COPYRIGHT HOLDERS: We often share news stories with one another. Please remember that these stories are copyrighted material and only post a fair-use excerpt along with a link where the rest of the story may be read.

    He has a web presence:

    http://jewwithagun.com/

    http://twincitiescarry.com/

    http://ellegon.com/

    http://journal.twincitiescarry.com/

    This high profile citizen is no stranger to the Minneapolis Police department, nor is the fact that he practices his and is an activist for, Second Amendment Rights. It was the sole reason for his presence that day at the Chief's office.

    It seems Rosenberg has some personal safety concerns since the incident:

    http://www.familymattersii.com/open_letter.php
    ****

    Now I believe this was probably penned by Rosenberg himself or a close associate. Nothing appears in the main stream media regarding this incident. I am sure that more will be forth coming as this second amendment activist pursues remedy, policy change and retribution for these actions.
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
    ~Citizen

    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

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    i do believe the Sargent stepped in it this time
    Last edited by khicks; 11-10-2010 at 12:25 PM.

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    Regular Member Coded-Dude's Avatar
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    is the video of the incident not released yet?
    If guns cause crime.....mine must be defective.

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    Do you have a non-propagandized source on which we can rely for an objective report?
    Last edited by eye95; 11-10-2010 at 01:13 PM.

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Do you have a non-propagandized source on which we can rely for an objective report?
    No I don't. I can't find anything independently submitted or corroborated. Nothing appears in main stream media. My OP can do little more than serve as notice of an incident, food for speculation. I will diligently follow and post anything independent that surfaces. In the meantime, it is only a call for attention to a possible legal can of worms.
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
    ~Citizen

    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Do you have a non-propagandized source on which we can rely for an objective report?
    Amen to that!

    With all due respect to Mr. Rosenberg, I get the distinct impression that not everything is being told.

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    So, if I reported a story about being assaulted by a police officer and there was no objective confirmation, you'd start a thread about it? So everyone would be able to think about my story???

    OK...

    Moving on.

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    Sure why not.

    As people dispute it, the thread gets bumped to the top. Wait for the inevitable person to post an inane comment just to get a +1 count and necro-post just to keep it interesting.

    The internet and post counts were made for threads like this.

    Or we could just let it die w/o any factual "objective" information.

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    I believe the last paragraph of the OP noted that there was nothing to corroborate the story, I did not present it as gospel. Mr. Rosenberg is well known in his region, and I believe has credibility. The submission was to bring attention to the incident. Make of the press release what you will.
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
    ~Citizen

    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

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    Regular Member Coded-Dude's Avatar
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    Palmer admitted, in front of Rosenberg, two witnesses, and a video camera, that he had done so out of a belief
    that it was somehow unlawful for Rosenberg, a permit holder, firearms instructor and the author of Everything
    You Need to Know About (Legally) Carrying a Handgun in Minnesota, to carry in Minneapolis City Hall, and
    threatened Rosenberg with the loss of his carry permit -- something that Palmer has neither the authority to
    threaten nor to do -- and with arrest.
    Where's the video?
    If guns cause crime.....mine must be defective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    I believe the last paragraph of the OP noted that there was nothing to corroborate the story, I did not present it as gospel. Mr. Rosenberg is well known in his region, and I believe has credibility. The submission was to bring attention to the incident. Make of the press release what you will.
    Frankly, the way the account has been propagandized up (and repeated word-for-word on site after site, gussied up as a "news release"), Rosenberg has zero credibility with me. If the video is ever produced I expect to see the kind of ballet you get from a punter when a lineman gets too close after the kick.

    Until there is a 3rd party, impartial verification or until we hear both sides, I am calling BS on this one.

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    ---Moderator Edited--
    (11) RESPECT COPYRIGHT HOLDERS: We often share news stories with one another. Please remember that these stories are copyrighted material and only post a fair-use excerpt along with a link where the rest of the story may be read.
    *ahem*, Mr. Moderator, it was a press release, which by definition is designed to be copied and disseminated as widely as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    So, if I reported a story about being assaulted by a police officer and there was no objective confirmation, you'd start a thread about it? So everyone would be able to think about my story???

    OK...

    Moving on.

    Well it is done all the time on here. For example of the member who shot the pitbull who "charged at him" and shot the dog dead, yet had zero evidence of the event and was unable to show any simple news article or police report. Anyone who has been involved with the breed or have drawn or fired their weapon knows you WILL have a police report of said incident. As well as the media eats up any bad pit bull storys true or not, mush less a shooting. Yet you participated in that thread with no more then the OP word on what happened. Why is this any different, because it involves a police officer. I agree we need an independent report of the issue but don't dismiss one thread and not others. It is one thing to stand by this premieres on all incidents than nick pick the ones that involve the police. Just saying.....


    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    *ahem*, Mr. Moderator, it was a press release, which by definition is designed to be copied and disseminated as widely as possible.
    As for this as long as its only a tiny part of the article and gives credit to the proper owners with the original link they will be legally ok.
    Last edited by zack991; 11-10-2010 at 08:38 PM.

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    double post. bloody internet connection.
    Last edited by zack991; 11-10-2010 at 08:40 PM.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Do you have a non-propagandized source on which we can rely for an objective report?
    In my experience, this is pretty much business as usual in the states struggling to regain their rights, particularly in those cases where OCers go directly to PD's to complain or pick up documents. Not that it's rampant, but it is common among seriously crazed officers or entire PD's with top down criminal operations.

    This could theoretically be fake or slanted, but in my opinion the story is far too tame to be made up. Much crazier things happen fairly regularly, and never get reported, or at least they haven't been yet. If someone were to let's say make up a story to enact revenge, it would be wise to make it far more intense than this.

    There are 2 very sound reasons why information about these types of incidents should be limited. First, a video or other solid proof of felonious actions by renegade cops is similar in metaphorical nature to a bomb, and as such it shouldn't be detonated without a reason. Blabbing about every detail is a mistake. It can endanger future lawsuits, and it can also anger a PD which otherwise might have worked with you to fix the problems it caused. Less important to us, but still a factor is that mainstream news agents don't like to anger their contacts with PD's by exposing crimes of officers.

    I won't say I believe this story without solid proof, but then I don't doubt any part of it either.
    Last edited by Michigander; 11-10-2010 at 09:06 PM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zack991 View Post
    ...
    The difference being that we get into a discussion with the person here (unless he is a one-hit wonder or a troll) and can judge his credibility. In this case we have some shills reposting "press releases" that have been plastered all over the Internet word-for-word, as if any credible journalist would touch it with a ten-foot pole.

    Clearly, we are being used by this guy to get his story out as widely as possible before an unbiased version or the opposing version can see the light of day.

    If this guy has any stones, he comes on here personally and talks with us instead of sending others touting his "press release."

    "Press release," what a freakin' joke!

    BS

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The difference being that we get into a discussion with the person here (unless he is a one-hit wonder or a troll) and can judge his credibility. In this case we have some shills reposting "press releases" that have been plastered all over the Internet word-for-word, as if any credible journalist would touch it with a ten-foot pole.

    Clearly, we are being used by this guy to get his story out as widely as possible before an unbiased version or the opposing version can see the light of day.

    If this guy has any stones, he comes on here personally and talks with us instead of sending others touting his "press release."

    "Press release," what a freakin' joke!

    BS
    +10000000000

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    Sounds like Rosenberg is a cop basher and someone who is attempting to entrap a cop. Why else would he be armed with a couple of guns and several knives?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coded-Dude View Post
    is the video of the incident not released yet?
    following the links to here http://www.familymattersii.com/ there is a really crappy video that appears to be a recording of the incident. Faces are not included - it looks as if someone set down a mini-camera hoping that it might pick up parts of something.

    Either my box of wires has problems getting to the end of the video or after the incident the camera remains there unattended. Not sure which.

    Anyhow, guy with a badge on his belt does act unsafely. Some arrogance displayed on both sides. Gun & ammo returned, which makes me scratch my head in wonder.

    Fun to speculate, but not worth staying up late trying to put all the unknown pieces in place.

    stay safe.

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    Is that it?????????

    That's the assault????

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

    What a loser this guy is. He sets up a situation trying to trap the cops. The officer acts very professionally. He may be wrong about where folks may carry. I don't know. But, at worst, he politely but incorrectly disarmed a man he genuinely believed was not allowed to carry in the police chief's office.

    On the same page, Rosenberg relates (his version of) a story where he bests a hotel clerk. Ya know what I get out of that? The hotel clerk is a professional and Rosenberg is a jerk.

    Rosenberg seems to have an overinflated sense of the power of his little blog.

    Here is a thought: Was leaving the recording running after he left legal in MN? I would love it if someone familiar with MN recording law would weigh in. Even if MN is a one-party State, by Rosenberg not being there, he cannot be that one party. He surreptitiously recorded the receptionist while she thought the office was empty except for her. She had an expectation of privacy.

    If possible, I think Rosenberg should be arrested for that crime!

    Now he is going to use his power of the press on me. *shudder*

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Perhaps a Federal color of law issue, although not a strong one. At least if the state has sweeping preemption (perhaps the code he referenced?), and it can be proven that the cop knew he was wrong. And even then, I wouldn't expect a jury to find this worth much money. Legal fees, at best, I would imagine. How much money is it really worth to be disarmed for under 3 minutes by an idiot? The only way you could hope to get money from a situation like this is if it was backed by a long list of repeat offenses well after they should have known better.

    In regards to the recording laws, considering that his rights were apparently violated, and considering that it's a public building, even not knowing state law there, I have an extremely hard time believing that he could be convicted of violating any recording laws. At worst I would imagine it would be won at the appellate level, yielding some good case law.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    While I can navigate the Alabama code with ease, not so with the Minnesota code. I cannot find actual code sections. However, a cursory Google search has indicated that Rosenberg may be guilty of two crimes: He recorded the conversation of the receptionist on the phone (her half, anyway), to which he was not a part, and for which he had not consent from one of the participants. Second, it is unlawful in Minnesota to record using a hidden camera without the permission of the subjects to be recorded or viewed.

    I assume these crimes are misdemeanors. Again, though, I cannot find the actual MN code sections.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    While I can navigate the Alabama code with ease, not so with the Minnesota code. I cannot find actual code sections. However, a cursory Google search has indicated that Rosenberg may be guilty of two crimes: He recorded the conversation of the receptionist on the phone (her half, anyway), to which he was not a part, and for which he had not consent from one of the participants. Second, it is unlawful in Minnesota to record using a hidden camera without the permission of the subjects to be recorded or viewed.

    I assume these crimes are misdemeanors. Again, though, I cannot find the actual MN code sections.
    Cite there are only very few states were it is unlawful to record public officials in their duties or to record the public in view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Cite there are only very few states were it is unlawful to record public officials in their duties or to record the public in view.
    As I have said, I cannot find the applicable MN statutes. My post clearly states that I am only reporting what a Google search indicates. I am not quoting law, therefore I will not cite.

    I have already requested that someone more familiar with MN law verify what I suspect to be true.

    In my reading, the key to making the recording illegal was the expectation of privacy. IMO, a person who thinks they are alone in an office, even one open to the public, has an expectation of privacy when they are alone in that office. People should be able to feel free to pick their nose or scratch their ass, free from prying eyes, when they think they are alone, even in a pubic office.

    The research on hidden cameras revealed no provision for public offices. It is that the camera is hidden that would seem to make its use illegal in this situation.

    Disclaimer: I am making no claim to be representing MN law. I am relating what a cursory bit of research revealed to me. I am seeking the assistance of others verifying the actual nature of MN law.

    Therefore, no cite will be forthcoming from me.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    As I have said, I cannot find the applicable MN statutes. My post clearly states that I am only reporting what a Google search indicates. I am not quoting law, therefore I will not cite.

    I have already requested that someone more familiar with MN law verify what I suspect to be true.

    In my reading, the key to making the recording illegal was the expectation of privacy. IMO, a person who thinks they are alone in an office, even one open to the public, has an expectation of privacy when they are alone in that office. People should be able to feel free to pick their nose or scratch their ass, free from prying eyes, when they think they are alone, even in a pubic office.

    The research on hidden cameras revealed no provision for public offices. It is that the camera is hidden that would seem to make its use illegal in this situation.

    Disclaimer: I am making no claim to be representing MN law. I am relating what a cursory bit of research revealed to me. I am seeking the assistance of others verifying the actual nature of MN law.

    Therefore, no cite will be forthcoming from me.
    I don't believe the same if you are in public or a public official you have no right to to an expectation of privacy either while in public or in acting in your public duties.

    Washington has ruled this in a few court decisions, so without a cite I wouldn't even propose that what you are saying is true.

    State vs Flora (one dealing with cops in WA)

    From my brief cursory search it looks like Minnesota is a on party state so as long as you are involved in the conversation you can tape and record it, even better than Washington were you have to inform you are recording don't have to stop if they don't want just inform.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 11-11-2010 at 11:07 AM.

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