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Minneapolis Police spokesman reacts to sight of legally holstered firearm.

eye95

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This had been posted earlier:

Minn. Stat. 624.714 Subd 23: "...No sheriff, police chief, governmental unit, government official, government employee, or other person or body acting under color of law or governmental authority may change, modify, or supplement these criteria or procedures, or limit the exercise of a permit to carry." from here: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=624.714

In this instance preemption does preempt the courts. Judges in Minnesota do NOT have the authority to issue orders on this issue beyond their court room.

I don't read it that way at all, and, at the very least, it would be questionable whether the courts were preempted by by this law--and courts decide questions of law. Courts issue orders all the time that folks wonder whether they have the authority. In the role of determining the meaning of the laws and their constitutionality, courts often ignore written law in favor of their rulings. (In particular courts will rightly ignore any laws that themselves usurp the constitutional authority of the courts!!) The only way to fix a ruling that oversteps its bounds is to get a higher court to overrule the lower court.

I don't like this kind of usurpation of power by courts. But, the reality is that one ignores a court order at his own peril. Any reasonable person, in the place of the officer, should take the court order as law until it is overruled. The officer acted in good faith. Unless he is totally wrong about the sign, he had absolute authority to disarm Rosenberg.

If the court order is in fact errant, it should be Rosenberg's target, not the officer. By foolishly going after the officer (and doing so in such a moronically flamboyant way), he is actually delaying a fix to the problem. Step one in fixing any problem is recognizing what it really is.

Rosenberg needs to figure this out. Based on his actions so far, I don't think he will anytime soon. Do you suppose someone should tell him?
 

sudden valley gunner

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Of course Eye don't read it that way.

That is what I was thinking Washington state has a strong preemption statue too.
Judges simply can't break state law for their own judgements I could see where they could ban an individual but not an area specifically pre-empted by the state.
 

eye95

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Courts decide questions of law. They don't make law.

You are right. However, it is a court that will decide whether this court was making law or just correctly interpreting the law and putting it on a sign--not the officer.

I do not dispute that the court order and the sign might be unlawful. I don't know. However, any reasonable person would follow this court order until and unless it was determined to be unlawful by another court. The officer was acting in good faith.

My point has been and still is Rosenberg's foolishness in this matter. One facet of his overblown and misdirected actions was his going after the officer with a silly "assault" charge. He should be going after the court that issued the order that resulted in the sign that he acknowledges exists, not going after the officer implementing what he reasonably believes is the law.

My point has never been that the sign is correct. It has always to denounce Rosenberg's folly.
 

wrightme

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You are right. However, it is a court that will decide whether this court was making law or just correctly interpreting the law and putting it on a sign--not the officer.

I do not dispute that the court order and the sign might be unlawful. I don't know. However, any reasonable person would follow this court order until and unless it was determined to be unlawful by another court. The officer was acting in good faith.
Then the officer was not familiar with the law, eh? A reasonable person would also follow up regarding the sign if it is clearly at odds with existing statute.

eye95 said:
My point has been and still is Rosenberg's foolishness in this matter. One facet of his overblown and misdirected actions was his going after the officer with a silly "assault" charge. He should be going after the court that issued the order that resulted in the sign that he acknowledges exists, not going after the officer implementing what he reasonably believes is the law.
Well, sort of. Your 'point' has continually been to bring up ANY little thing you can think of to discredit Rosenberg.

eye95 said:
My point has never been that the sign is correct. It has always to denounce Rosenberg's folly.
Yet your denunciation rests upon that sign, among other things. In other words, you are grasping at any straw you can find to perform your ad hom attack upon Rosenberg.
 
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eye95

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Then the officer was not familiar with the law, eh? A reasonable person would also follow up regarding the sign if it is clearly at odds with existing statute. I don't know that it is "clearly" at odds with the statute. I don't know what authority the legislature has over the judicial in MN. I suspect not much at all and that this law may be unlawful if it attempts to restrict the courts! The point is that it is reasonable to follow the court's order until it is struck down.

Well, sort of. Your 'point' has continually been to bring up ANY little thing you can think of to discredit Rosenberg. Not true. I have brought up three things that Rosenberg has done that are silly. Thanks for asking so I can reiterate: (1) His "assault" charge against the officer is laughable. The officer was acting in good faith according to what he reasonably believed was the law. (2) Rosenberg's "press release" was silly. It was no more than an Internet post (such as this is), but he arrogantly labels it a "press release." Predictably, no one in the press took it seriously. And, (3) his "joint press conference" was neither "joint" nor a "press conference." It was just the foolish ramblings of a man who failed to explore the situation before going off half-cocked. Had he taken the time to think about his actions before he rashly took the moronic ones he did, he'd've realized that the proper course of action would be to challenge the court order that resulted in the sign!

That's it. Not "any little thing." Those three things.


Yet your denunciation rests upon that sign, among other things. In other words, you are grasping at any straw you can find to perform your ad hom attack upon Rosenberg. No, the sign is what the officer reasonably rested his actions on. I have little doubt that folks who rationally and impartially look at this situation will conclude that the officer acted reasonably and in good faith, considering the sign. Therefore the professional way in which he disarmed Rosenberg is nowhere near assault.

My posts have been to criticize Rosenberg's actions, not his person. Were I to call him a fool, that would be ad hominem. I am calling his actions foolish. They are.

My responses to each point are in navy.
 

Phssthpok

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I don't read it that way at all...



Minn. Stat. 624.714 Subd 23:
"...No sheriff, police chief, governmental unit, government official, government employee, or ... person or body acting under color of ... governmental authority may change, modify, or supplement these criteria or procedures, or limit the exercise of a permit to carry."

Point of order:

Which one of these would not fit the description of a judge?
 

SavageOne

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Is that it?????????

That's the assault????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

What a loser this guy is. He sets up a situation trying to trap the cops. The officer acts very professionally. He may be wrong about where folks may carry. I don't know. But, at worst, he politely but incorrectly disarmed a man he genuinely believed was not allowed to carry in the police chief's office.

On the same page, Rosenberg relates (his version of) a story where he bests a hotel clerk. Ya know what I get out of that? The hotel clerk is a professional and Rosenberg is a jerk.

Rosenberg seems to have an overinflated sense of the power of his little blog.

Here is a thought: Was leaving the recording running after he left legal in MN? I would love it if someone familiar with MN recording law would weigh in. Even if MN is a one-party State, by Rosenberg not being there, he cannot be that one party. He surreptitiously recorded the receptionist while she thought the office was empty except for her. She had an expectation of privacy.

If possible, I think Rosenberg should be arrested for that crime!

Now he is going to use his power of the press on me. *shudder*


You clearly called the man a loser. You also had two posts edited for personal attacks and a third edited for an attack on other gun rights supporters.

I also have to take issue with your claim you have only brought up three points. You seem to have left out at least two other points you used.
1. You called for third party conformation. Posts #4, 7, 11, 16, and 20
2. You then started asking if he should be charged with a crime for using as you called it a "hidden camera". Posts #20, 22, 24, 30, 31, 55, 57, 62, 68, and 72. I do also note that after a few requests you dropped this line.

These of course are not your only posts on this thread, and you have throughout this thread brought up the 3 points you referenced in your answer(since you answered on the quoted post I cannot quote them myself), but they are not the only points you have used or as you put it.

That's it. Not "any little thing." Those three things.


I hope you may see now why some may feel you have jumped from argument to argument in an attempt to justify your position against Mr. Rosenberg.


Edit. Please understand this not an attack only an attempt to show why some may view your position as they do.
 
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eye95

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Point of order:

Which one of these would not fit the description of a judge?

None of them. The legislature and judicial are (in all States, AFIK) separate and equal branches. (If this is not true in MN, let me know.) Therefore, the legislature can tell the judiciary what to do only as outlined in the State constitution. I would be willing to bet that every court in MN would say that the description does not apply to them.

Just as the judges order may well be unlawful (I don't know), so might be the application of this law to judges (I don't know). It's going to take, ironically, a judge to determine this question!

In any event. The sign is there, by order of a judge, and the officer reasonably followed what he believed to be the law as ordered by a judge. There is no there there.

Rosenberg's target should be the judge and his sign. Not the officer.
 

Phssthpok

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None of them.

So...a judge is NOT hired by, paid by, and working for the government? WTF-Huh?
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The legislature and judicial are (in all States, AFIK) separate and equal branches. (If this is not true in MN, let me know.)

Separate but equal branches of WHAT exactly? Could it be.. the government maybe?
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eye95

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So...a judge is NOT hired by, paid by, and working for the government? WTF-Huh?

Separate but equal branches of WHAT exactly? Could it be.. the government maybe?

Meaning that they can only exercise authority over each other as the State constitution allows. Who will determine that? Could it be...the courts?

Moving on until you lose the condescension.
 

tletourneau

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Regardless of how anyone may feel about statute 624.714 it was specifically written the way it was to curtail potential judicial activism. That is not to say that judges can't issue decisions about the law when a case concerning it is filed, they certainly can and have (for more information on that see here). What it does is prevent orders not tied to a case from being issued by judges that don't think people should be able to carry in "some special place". In Minnesota those decisions are up to the legislature and not the judiciary unless a civil case is filed, ruled on and upheld (which has happened once). However no judge in Minnesota can issue an order that restricts permitted carry on public property, including city halls and police stations. The few places that do have a restriction (court houses and some state buildings) only require, by statute 609.66 subd 1g, that the permit holder send notice to either the county sheriff or the commissioner of public safety notifying them that the permit holder will be carrying in those buildings. Here is the relevant portion of that statute:

"Subd. 1g.Felony; possession in courthouse or certain state buildings.

(a) A person who commits either of the following acts is guilty of a felony and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both:
(1) possesses a dangerous weapon, ammunition, or explosives within any courthouse complex; or
(2) possesses a dangerous weapon, ammunition, or explosives in any state building within the Capitol Area described in chapter 15B, other than the National Guard Armory.
(b) Unless a person is otherwise prohibited or restricted by other law to possess a dangerous weapon, this subdivision does not apply to:
(1) licensed peace officers or military personnel who are performing official duties;
(2) persons who carry pistols according to the terms of a permit issued under section 624.714 and who so notify the sheriff or the commissioner of public safety, as appropriate;
(3) persons who possess dangerous weapons for the purpose of display as demonstrative evidence during testimony at a trial or hearing or exhibition in compliance with advance notice and safety guidelines set by the sheriff or the commissioner of public safety; or
(4) persons who possess dangerous weapons in a courthouse complex with the express consent of the county sheriff or who possess dangerous weapons in a state building with the express consent of the commissioner of public safety."

Notice that in section b2 the statute states that a permit holder only has to notify, not request permission. Not that that matters in this discussion as the Minneapolis Police Department is not located in one of those types of buildings. I do know that some judges have issued orders that affect permitted carrying in courthouses under the mistaken belief that statute 609.66 allows them to deny it (it doesn't) and no one has challenged those rulings probably because of the time and money involved in doing so but that does not make the orders legal and to the best of my knowledge that has only been in court houses, not other building types.

Added: This law is constitutional under the Minnesota constitution. The people that wrote it ensured that after the 2003 version was deemed unconstitutional by the state supreme court.
 
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